McClellan Thomas and McClellan

I was asked to site occasions when McClellan was disrespectful to Lincoln. I have cited three reports at three different times by three different observers. Any or all are open to question individually and some details of at least one of the reports are incorrect but nobody has offered any evidence they were patently false. The number of first-person reports suggests to me that at minimum the perception was that the grandiose attitude McClellan showed in his letters to his wife leaked into his behavior. How could it not?

George Thomas did not press his unrequested theories of governance upon President Lincoln or hang out with members of the opposition party to keep his political ambitions made known. Among the Civil War generals, many of whom on both sides showed a prickly sense of entitlement a quickness to take offense at imagined (or real) slights, as well as a tendency to try to gossip and undercut one another like thirteen-year-old girls, Thomas supported his superiors, did not ask for favors and did not blame others.

That makes him almost unique. And superior to McClellan and most other officers. Give Thomas a task and he will make you look good. Bogus metric aside, who won more offensive and defensive battles and made fewer poorly planned attacks that killed soldiers for no gain? My answer is: nobody.
 
The issue has always been put in terms of McClellan, not where the issue belongs.
In 1862, the issue was Lincoln. It was not what McClellan had or did not have that actually drove events, it was what Lincoln expected from what McClellan had. No matter the credits or debits of McClellan's movements, he was on the road to failure because of what Lincoln expected.
History tends to look to McClellan as the issue, that because he was pummeled by Lincoln twice.
In July of 1863 Lincoln might have come to realize something as he seethed over George G Meade's "failure" Maybe it was not rational to expect 12 or 13 fellows to go get the heads of 9 or 10 other guys. Maybe a few heads at a time would be good enough. Maybe if he had allowed McClellan to keep taking a few heads at a time, there would never have been a Reb army in PA to worry with. Maybe McClellan actually did understand the numbers.
 
The issue has always been put in terms of McClellan, not where the issue belongs.
In 1862, the issue was Lincoln. It was not what McClellan had or did not have that actually drove events, it was what Lincoln expected from what McClellan had. No matter the credits or debits of McClellan's movements, he was on the road to failure because of what Lincoln expected.
History tends to look to McClellan as the issue, that because he was pummeled by Lincoln twice.
In July of 1863 Lincoln might have come to realize something as he seethed over George G Meade's "failure" Maybe it was not rational to expect 12 or 13 fellows to go get the heads of 9 or 10 other guys. Maybe a few heads at a time would be good enough. Maybe if he had allowed McClellan to keep taking a few heads at a time, there would never have been a Reb army in PA to worry with. Maybe McClellan actually did understand the numbers.
The only thing McClellan understood was McClellan, a huge whinner. A nonfighter.
 
I suspect Lincoln, Welles and Stanton might agree somewhat. I also suspect most CSA generals who faced McClellan would have not agreed, after counting their dead and wounded.
In that day and time, body count is what McClellan wanted to avoid.
Counting dead and wounded of the CSA army shouldn't be a cover
For a loser like McClellan. He didn't take Richmond and to those that died fighting and losing their life over was a success.
 
It's interesting insofar as we get the tired old nugget "if McClellan had everything he wanted he would have won" which is just silly. For instance the quoted section says this:

I think we read different articles.

If we make the assumption that victory in the east was possible in 1862, then we have to consider why it was not achieved. If we reject the supposition that victory was possible, then we're having a very different conversation.

You reject analysis, and try and blame the failure on McClellan (although how to blame the failure in the Shenandoah, or West Va on McClellan?). You make the assumption that McClellan would not achieve victory, no matter what.

What part of saying that had McClellan had the forces that had been agreed with Lincoln, then he'd have taken Richmond is "just silly"? As is clear, it was agreed that the movement to the Peninsula be made with 13 full strength infantry divisions, rather than the 8 that historically it was (plus ca. 2 divisions worth in June, which replaced the casualties of the campaign). It is not "everything he wanted", it was what the professionals, not just McClellan, agreed was needed.

Another way of looking at this is that Lincoln expected McClellan to succeed with a force which all the professionals who analysed the matter (Meigs excepted) agreed was insufficient. Compounding matters, Lincoln didn't even bother to tell McClellan what was being done.

For one thing is assumes a) Lincoln should just have ignored the problem/opportunity Jackson in the Valley presented and b) that with everything given only then would McClellan win a victory over the secesh.

Well, there was no opportunity, as McDowell explained to Lincoln at length. Lincoln's argument was that on a map the distance the intercepting forces was shorter. McDowell pointed out Lincoln was asking the intercepting forces to travel over dirt roads and over mountain ranges, whilst Jackson was on a flat macadamised road, and hence could travel much faster. Lincoln could not understand this.

Jackson's intent was to stop McDowell reaching Richmond and sealing the Confederacy's fate. He played on Lincoln's paranoia, paralysed a large force (as McDowell predicted and told Lincoln would happen), and then united with Lee to achieve numerical superiority over McClellan.

Any reason for why we should believe this is rarely offered. The idea that Lee might have found another way to attack McClellan is dismissed, the possibility of a long protracted siege sapping the efficiency of the Army of the Potomac is not considered (the siege of Richmond/Petersburg in 1864 took 9 months with a smaller Confederate army and Lee was hardly inactive) and no indication is given just how McClellan will totally baffle Lee and prevent any type of counterattack.

Lee had only one chance, a left-flanking movement over the Totopotomoy, with a force coming in from the north (Jackson). This depended upon Jackson baffling the Federals in the Shenandoah and then arriving behind McClellan's lines. This is of course exactly what happened.

Let us pose the counterfactual of what would have happened without Jackson. The Federals had a solid defensive position behind Beaver Dam Creek, that a month earlier Johnston had intended to attack, but found it far too heavily entrenched. Johnston switched to an attack at Seven Pines instead. On 26th June, Jackson was running late and Lee ordered a frontal assault on the Beaver Dam Creek works to fix McCall. It was an utter slaughter. Had Jackson crossed the Totopotomoy behind the Federal line, the Beaver Dam Creek line likely would have been held forever, and Lee's army destroyed trying to attack it.

Are there other options? No. A right flanking movement is impossible, due to the White Oak shielding McClellan's left. A frontal assault on McClellan from Richmond? Nonsense.

If you think Lee has so many options, then please find them.

I mean, the rest of the article attempts to downplay the whole historical narrative as falling into various "archetypes" when the reality is that McClellan was rarely in command during the Seven Days and so the whole series of Lee's failure to bring off a decisive attack and the armies survival falls less on the shoulders of the general commanders, but rather on their subordinates.

Sears et al. try to claim that McClellan was not in command. However, a close survey of the actions shows this is nonsense. Except for a period of ca. 4 hours on 1st July when he handed command over to Sumner whilst he check Harrison's Landing, McClellan remained in command of his army.

Your general problem is that you refuse to recognise that Lincoln was an utter failure during this period. Of course, it is not acceptable to actually judge him, and so a scapegoat is needed. McClellan is Lincoln's scapegoat.
 
In that day and time, body count is what McClellan wanted to avoid.
Counting dead and wounded of the CSA army shouldn't be a cover
For a loser like McClellan. He didn't take Richmond and to those that died fighting and losing their life over was a success.
i guess not. Grant did not take Richmond...it was abandoned after enough Confederate heads were taken.
Grant took 11 months not taking Richmond. What does that make him?
 
I think we read different articles.

We read the same article. It just isn't compelling.

If we make the assumption that victory in the east was possible in 1862, then we have to consider why it was not achieved. If we reject the supposition that victory was possible, then we're having a very different conversation.

You reject analysis, and try and blame the failure on McClellan (although how to blame the failure in the Shenandoah, or West Va on McClellan?). You make the assumption that McClellan would not achieve victory, no matter what.

No, I'm just happy to point out that expecting a commander to accomplish something with less, rather than chronically demanding more, shouldn't be an exceptional thing. Lincoln will eternally be right about that.

Lee had only one chance, a left-flanking movement over the Totopotomoy, with a force coming in from the north (Jackson). This depended upon Jackson baffling the Federals in the Shenandoah and then arriving behind McClellan's lines. This is of course exactly what happened.

Let us pose the counterfactual of what would have happened without Jackson. The Federals had a solid defensive position behind Beaver Dam Creek, that a month earlier Johnston had intended to attack, but found it far too heavily entrenched. Johnston switched to an attack at Seven Pines instead. On 26th June, Jackson was running late and Lee ordered a frontal assault on the Beaver Dam Creek works to fix McCall. It was an utter slaughter. Had Jackson crossed the Totopotomoy behind the Federal line, the Beaver Dam Creek line likely would have been held forever, and Lee's army destroyed trying to attack it.

Are there other options? No. A right flanking movement is impossible, due to the White Oak shielding McClellan's left. A frontal assault on McClellan from Richmond? Nonsense.

If you think Lee has so many options, then please find them.

Yet again Lee is fated for defeat but McClellan (if he gets everything he wants) is fated for victory.

It would be fruitless since your presupposition is that if McClellan had everything he wanted he would win no matter what, when we have zero reason to believe this.

Sears et al. try to claim that McClellan was not in command. However, a close survey of the actions shows this is nonsense. Except for a period of ca. 4 hours on 1st July when he handed command over to Sumner whilst he check Harrison's Landing, McClellan remained in command of his army.

Your general problem is that you refuse to recognise that Lincoln was an utter failure during this period. Of course, it is not acceptable to actually judge him, and so a scapegoat is needed. McClellan is Lincoln's scapegoat.

A weird analysis indeed.

I mean, I'm glad sticking to the historic record, and I will. The simple truth is, McClellan was not the commander his partisans try to build him up as, while in reality being very competent, he was not exceptional. He may have believed this was the case, but his actions speak for themselves.

While Lincoln was far from perfect, blaming him for McClellan's failures on the Peninsula and in Maryland is absurd.

i guess not. Grant did not take Richmond...it was abandoned after enough Confederate heads were taken.
Grant took 11 months not taking Richmond. What does that make him?

This is still a worse analysis. Grant with more men against fewer rebels becomes bogged down in a siege, McClellan nearly the same amount of men against a larger number of rebels is somehow supposed to snatch victory in less time?

Color me skeptical.
 
i guess not. Grant did not take Richmond...it was abandoned after enough Confederate heads were taken.
Grant took 11 months not taking Richmond. What does that make him?

It makes him "McClellanized"?

Grant of course never really tried to attack Richmond or Petersburg in 1864, and actually wanted to withdraw after his failed attempt at a coup de main, and send the Petersburg/Richmond army to reinforce Sherman. He forced by Washington to send two corps (6th and 19th) to fight Early in the Shenandoah, and spends 1864 complaining he is too weak to carry out his plan of cutting the Southside Railroad.

Early's 1864 operations were very successful, and did exactly what Jackson's did in 1862. In 1862, McClellan had identified the key feature of Richmond's defense whose capture would render Richmond untenable (Old Tavern). His assault and capture of Garnett's Hill on 26th June gave him a point d'appui onto Old Tavern, and the siege artillery was already positioning on the 27th to blast the way into Old Tavern. There's little doubt McClellan would have gained possession of Old Tavern in July, and hence captured Richmond, had Jackson not broken the supply line. Grant however had only one idea - keep extending the flank to capture the Southside Railroad. That took him 9 months to do.
 
No, I'm just happy to point out that expecting a commander to accomplish something with less, rather than chronically demanding more, shouldn't be an exceptional thing. Lincoln will eternally be right about that.

Surely that the wrong way around?

All the professionals recommended that the entire main Federal force be used for main effort. Richmond should be the Schwerpunkt. Lincoln did not like this, and had no need of these so-called experts. He broke up the main Federal force and tried to do multiple things at once. Hence he had no main effort, and was exposed to defeat in detail. Indeed, Lincoln was defeated in detail. He completely mismanaged the campaign.

Essentially, McClellan (and McDowell, Scott etc.) was right and Lincoln was wrong. Many can't accept that Lincoln was wrong, and so try and pin Lincoln's failures on others.

Yet again Lee is fated for defeat but McClellan (if he gets everything he wants) is fated for victory.

Yes, and Lee knew it:

"McClellan will make this a battle of Posts. He will take position from position, under cover of his heavy guns, & we cannot get at him without storming his works, which with our new troops is extremely hazardous... It will require 100,000 men to resist the regular siege of Richmond, which perhaps would only prolong not save it - I am preparing a line that I can hold with part of our forces in front, while with the rest I will endeavour to make a diversion to bring McClellan out. He sticks under his batteries & is working day & nights - He is obliged to adhere to the R.R. unless he can reach James river to provision his Army. I am endeavouring to block his progress on the R.R. ... Our people are opposed to work. Our troops officers community & press. All ridicule & resist it. It is the very means by which McClellan has & is advancing."

Lee knew that unless he could cut McClellan's line of supply off, then Richmond was doomed. He knew that if McClellan moved his base to the James river, then Richmond was doomed. By playing Lincoln and bring Jackson down from the valley he achieved the former, but failed the latter. He could not have guessed that Lincoln would decide to save Richmond, and that salving his own political problems was more important than taking the enemy capitol.

A weird analysis indeed.

In what way?

This is still a worse analysis. Grant with more men against fewer rebels becomes bogged down in a siege, McClellan nearly the same amount of men against a larger number of rebels is somehow supposed to snatch victory in less time?

Grant had a wrong concept of operations. He elected to spread his forces over a very wide front in an attempt to encircle Richmond and Petersburg in the conventional manner. McClellan was not laying siege, he had correctly analysed the enemy defenses, found a weakness and was moving towards it. The second to last bound was on the 26th June, and the artillery were moving into position to bombard Old Tavern on the 27th. Had Lee been halted at Beaver Dam Creek, i.e. had Jackson not cross the Totopotomoy unopposed, then Richmond would have fallen in a week.
 
It makes him "McClellanized"?

Grant of course never really tried to attack Richmond or Petersburg in 1864, and actually wanted to withdraw after his failed attempt at a coup de main, and send the Petersburg/Richmond army to reinforce Sherman. He forced by Washington to send two corps (6th and 19th) to fight Early in the Shenandoah, and spends 1864 complaining he is too weak to carry out his plan of cutting the Southside Railroad.

Early's 1864 operations were very successful, and did exactly what Jackson's did in 1862. In 1862, McClellan had identified the key feature of Richmond's defense whose capture would render Richmond untenable (Old Tavern). His assault and capture of Garnett's Hill on 26th June gave him a point d'appui onto Old Tavern, and the siege artillery was already positioning on the 27th to blast the way into Old Tavern. There's little doubt McClellan would have gained possession of Old Tavern in July, and hence captured Richmond, had Jackson not broken the supply line. Grant however had only one idea - keep extending the flank to capture the Southside Railroad. That took him 9 months to do.
I'm not sure we are disagreeing. If McClellan is a "loser" for not taking Richmond when he lacked the means, what, then was Grant?
I suppose my point is not obvious. The issue is not McClellan, or Grant, but Lincoln.
For two years Lincoln sent out armies, declaring: "Bring me back their heads". In time Lincoln figured out war did not work that way. A few heads at a time would work. So, the patience with Grant he did not have with McClellan.
 
Grant of course never really tried to attack Richmond or Petersburg in 1864, and actually wanted to withdraw after his failed attempt at a coup de main, and send the Petersburg/Richmond army to reinforce Sherman. He forced by Washington to send two corps (6th and 19th) to fight Early in the Shenandoah, and spends 1864 complaining he is too weak to carry out his plan of cutting the Southside Railroad.
More anti-Grant falsehoods. But this thread is not about Grant.
There's little doubt McClellan would have gained possession of Old Tavern in July, and hence captured Richmond, had Jackson not broken the supply line.
Oh there's doubt. There is a huge amount of doubt. Massive doubt.
 
I'm not sure we are disagreeing. If McClellan is a "loser" for not taking Richmond when he lacked the means, what, then was Grant?
I suppose my point is not obvious. The issue is not McClellan, or Grant, but Lincoln.
For two years Lincoln sent out armies, declaring: "Bring me back their heads". In time Lincoln figured out war did not work that way. A few heads at a time would work. So, the patience with Grant he did not have with McClellan.

I am in total agreement with most of this. I disagree a bit about Grant. Grant's overland campaign horrified Lincoln, Welles etc. - they had a general who'd done what they wanted and were faced with the reality of their desires. Lincoln on 31st July ended any "special status" Grant had enjoyed, and I find John Y. Simon's analysis convincing, although of course it does not fit the "Lincoln finds a general" thesis, and so is roundly rejected by many. Lincoln's fears of Early did to Grant what the fear of Jackson had done to McClellan.
 
I am in total agreement with most of this. I disagree a bit about Grant. Grant's overland campaign horrified Lincoln, Welles etc. - they had a general who'd done what they wanted and were faced with the reality of their desires. Lincoln on 31st July ended any "special status" Grant had enjoyed, and I find John Y. Simon's analysis convincing, although of course it does not fit the "Lincoln finds a general" thesis, and so is roundly rejected by many. Lincoln's fears of Early did to Grant what the fear of Jackson had done to McClellan.
OK. I can read Nederlander well enough to navigate the Simon link, but there was not much there. No matter, as i do not think Lincoln truly trusted anybody a lot.
 
See attached.


I think Grant's description of McClellan was spot on. Simon, on the other hand, gives a detailed interpretation of the result a five-hour meeting between Lincoln and Grant that neither man left any record about. In my opinion, his conclusion is the result of his imagination. Because it is impossible to know what happened, that leaves the field free for Simon to indulge in his thesis. There is no evidence against it. Unfortunately, there is also no evidence in favor of it either.
 

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