McClellan Re-evaluating George McClellan

[JackADriscoll]

I can't get mad about the quaker guns thing. Deception is meant to decieve.

 

[Belfoured]

No the recce did not show Hamilton to be wrong. Hamilton did not claim that the position was abandoned entirely. Just that it was drastically weakened.

The flip side is that some assume Hamilton to be wrong simply because they feel it doesn't reflect well on McClellan.

In other words, "because it sounds good to some, Hamilton is assumed to be wrong..."

I don't know why posters continually try to resuscitate this stuff after it has lain expiring in a ditch for a period of time. We know where it will lead. Every time. Without fail .... At the ranch I worked on one summer, we all learned the rule to be careful handling a dead rattler because the head could still bite.

 

[Belfoured]

I can't get mad about the quaker guns thing. Deception is meant to decieve.

True, but I do think we can agree that there is deception and then there is deception. Sort of like the uniformed scarecrows in The Patriot.

 

[JackADriscoll]

True, but I do think we can agree that there is deception and then there is deception. Sort of like the uniformed scarecrows in The Patriot.

There's operation overlord then there's operation dumbo drop

 

[Belfoured]

There's operation overlord then there's operation dumbo drop

Now if a Joe Johnston double had washed up at Aquia Creek, we might have something ....

 

[SSVilla]

I can't get mad about the quaker guns thing. Deception is meant to decieve.

They would show if Mac had tested the defenses though right? Imagine a front with 10 guns of which let's say only two are firing… it's a hypothetical but it would maybe have shown in Hamilton's test…. That's exactly what that was about. Hamilton in essence reported that the defense was not as strong or stubborn as expected. A surveyor could easily be deceived by Quaker guns, but not a real effort.

I have a lot more to say about a Division Commander wanting to test a forts defense before settling into a siege, because I have seen something like that referenced before elsewhere, the Vicksburg siege.

"I now determined on a second assault. Johnston was in my rear, only fifty miles away, with an army not much inferior in numbers to the one I had with me, and I knew he was being reinforced. There was danger of his coming to the assistance of Pemberton, and after all he might defeat my anticipations of capturing the garrison if, indeed, he did not prevent the capture of the city. The immediate capture of Vicksburg would save sending me the reinforcements which were so much wanted elsewhere, and would set free the army under me to drive Johnston from the State. But the first consideration of all was—the troops believed they could carry the works in their front, and would not have worked so patiently in the trenches if they had not been allowed to try."​

Excerpt From Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant, Ulysses S. Grant

It's interesting how the personalities of these armies show through sometimes.

 

[SSVilla]

True, but I do think we can agree that there is deception and then there is deception. Sort of like the uniformed scarecrows in The Patriot.

I didn't watch the Patriot so I can't get this joke… but there were uniformed scarecrows in the Corinth siege…

 

[JackADriscoll]

I didn't watch the Patriot so I can't get this joke… but there were uniformed scarecrows in the Corinth siege…

Don't bother. Some people like it I don't really. Recons in force, probing attacks, they're pointless if you don't note what is seen and act

 

[Belfoured]

Don't bother. Some people like it I don't really. Recons in force, probing attacks, they're pointless if you don't note what is seen and act

Fortunately, I haven't met the ones who like it. I'm far from a fan of Banastre Tarleton but things like torching churches with women and child trapped inside is from a bad comic book. And that's only scratching the surface - such as Mel Gibson wiping out half a British battalion with a 6th grader and a 4th grader as his only support.

 

[Belfoured]

I didn't watch the Patriot so I can't get this joke… but there were uniformed scarecrows in the Corinth siege…

Let's just say that in the scene I'm referring to, Cornwallis comes off as a 36 IQ ...

 

[TallTallMan]

such as Mel Gibson wiping out half a British battalion with a 6th grader and a 4th grader as his only support.

That was so funny. Typical of a Gib film to hack a dead body to pieces.

 

[John Winn]

In other words, "because it sounds good to some, Hamilton is assumed to be wrong..."

I don't know why posters continually try to resuscitate this stuff after it has lain expiring in a ditch for a period of time. We know where it will lead. Every time. Without fail .... At the ranch I worked on one summer, we all learned the rule to be careful handling a dead rattler because the head could still bite.

And don't forget that the baby rattlers are more venomous than the adults.

 

[Belfoured]

That was so funny. Typical of a Gib film to hack a dead body to pieces.

One might suggest that there were a few "gratuitous" hacks. I was more impressed by the fact that the recoil didn't slam the 4th grader backwards off the hill.

 

[TallTallMan]

One might suggest that there were a few "gratuitous" hacks. I was more impressed by the fact that the recoil didn't slam the 4th grader backwards off the hill.

I haven't seen it since '19 so I don't remember that. I got into history the year after.

 

[Belfoured]

And don't forget that the baby rattlers are more venomous than the adults.

Good point. Or that the most venomous rattler is the smaller midget faded which is endemic to southwestern Wyoming - fortunately for me, not in the Tetons, the Winds, or the Big Horns - although I have seen one in Sinks Canyon outside Lander. It was early October and we were getting out of Dodge because a snowstorm was blowing in. I'll admit to some evil thoughts about the weather and our cold-blooded friend.

 

[Belfoured]

I haven't seen it since '19 so I don't remember that. I got into history the year after.

Trust me - you're better off not recalling it. Have I mentioned the hopeless "French" accent on the transfer from Louis XVI's army? Inspector Clouseau comes to Yorktown ...

 

[JerryD]

They would show if Mac had tested the defenses though right? Imagine a front with 10 guns of which let's say only two are firing… it's a hypothetical but it would maybe have shown in Hamilton's test…. That's exactly what that was about. Hamilton in essence reported that the defense was not as strong or stubborn as expected. A surveyor could easily be deceived by Quaker guns, but not a real effort.

I may be wrong here, but I believe the wooden guns were never in place when the Rebs were manning the works. They were put in place when Johnston retreated to fool the US into thinking they were still in the works. In other words, they were put in place the night the works were abandoned.

 

[rpkennedy]

Trust me - you're better off not recalling it. Have I mentioned the hopeless "French" accent on the transfer from Louis XVI's army? Inspector Clouseau comes to Yorktown ...

The actor grew up in Paris. So that's not even a fake French accent.

Ryan

 

[SSVilla]

I may be wrong here, but I believe the wooden guns were never in place when the Rebs were manning the works. They were put in place when Johnston retreated to fool the US into thinking they were still in the works. In other words, they were put in place the night the works were abandoned.

Thanks for sharing that.

That would then be similar to what was reported at Corinth… but then again Halleck also had no intention of attacking Beauregard and contented himself with capturing the place after it was evacuated. Another example that just capturing a strategic location wouldn't be enough when he allowed Beauregard to get his army away with all his war material.

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As an aside, I recently discovered a book from a British Major General written after the "Great War" which I am finding interesting because it's a military analysis. He is a Lee admirer, but fair in his analysis, and Lee was a successful general with a lot of skill worth studying, so that's beside the point, I just thought I'd mention it because the reference is odd. Anyways, of retreating he wrote:

"A retreat is exhausting, wasteful to the most experienced troops, and no general, who knows his business, lightly places his army where it must fall back. In a newly formed army, in which the bonds of discipline are not firmly tied, a retreat is always exceptionally wasteful. "

Excerpt From Robert E. Lee, the Soldier, Sir Frederick Maurice (1925)

Except when those armies are so undisturbed that they are able to escape with all their war supplies, leaving Quaker guns and scarecrows in place to delay an attack and therefore get a head start.

 

[wausaubob]

I have one question because I am not versed in these details, is this the same fort that was found to have a lot of Quaker (fake/log) guns?

Maybe I am opening another can of worms here?..


hobbled? I am very interested in this, Maybe psychologically he wasn't cut out for it. He must have known it (had doubts and insecurities at least) when he repeated to himself that God worked through weak instruments at times, and things of that nature.
———

Interestingly, I looked up a lecture someone posted much earlier in this thread (very old, over 10 years old. This thread started in 2014!) from Rafuse and so far nothing on McC. It started and mostly covered the war in Missouri, Lyon, Blair and etc. and hasn't gotten to McC, so that I am left wondering why it was posted.

———

Thinking about McC the best I could say to someone in the position of the OP, is you can still tip your hat if you want to the old general. He wasn't perfect but no one is. He tried to save the Union his way, but his way wasn't going to be enough.

Frankly even if he had captured Richmond, he would have then found out that it wouldn't have been the end of the war. That's what other successful generals found in the West. Even a major battle won, a huge victory, the capture of cities, forts, and armies even, the occupation of territory wasn't going to be enough to subdue the confederacy. It hobbled the confederacy sure, and weakened them. Every victory and battle won made it more likely that it would be the last, but so long as the confederacy could field dangerous armies and have a sitting government somewhere they wouldn't have given up. Now that's the realm of speculation and we don't need to go there, but total war and the abolition of slavery was the only thing that could guarantee a lasting peace. Lord Lyons of Britain thought the U.S. would win but then be faced with everlasting internal warring among themselves.

I once read a study by a military professional about how civil wars tend to recur, particularly when what gave rise to them isn't solved. Sometimes foreign intervention on one side or another doesn't guarantee a lasting peace. It was a blessing for the future in that sense that no foreign power intervened and the U.S. was allowed to fight their war out until they were all fought out and ready to move on. Possibly one of the reasons (aside from the very real terrorism based on race that persisted for decades and generations unfortunately) that the war did not recur was that it was so complete, and that it resolved the real cause behind it. In that sense, we ought to always be grateful to the generation who settled that issue for us, as Bruce Catton wrote. And they knew, if they knew nothing else, that at least that they had done — they settled that issue forever. That's I think what gave them peace of mind and allowed them to live with themselves afterwards. It was best that we had the war when we did, would write Grant. If it had to happen it was best that it happened when it did and took with it it's root cause.

Then McC had his own role to play. Maybe anyone who would have been plunged in that situation at the beginning was in a minefield that he couldn't have conquered or passed through unscathed. That seems to be the view Grant took of McC, when he spoke with mercy about the cruel and vast responsibility thrown on him at the outset of the war.

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So, tip your hat to McC. He played his part in the beginning and then showed Lincoln that the limited war way wasn't going to be successful and that taking the kid gloves off was necessary and now slavery would have to go too. It's interesting that McC would come up with the Harrison Landing letter when Lincoln was already looking at the emancipation proclamation.

I think Grant's assessment is correct. But Grant also said or wrote, that McClellan became Lincoln's rival. A year after the death of Stephen A. Douglas it became clear to Lincoln, and Seward too most likely, the General McClellan was positioning himself as a future presidential nominee.