Replacing Rosecrans with Thomas: October 1863

[David Moore]

Did anyone cite a reason in 1863, rather than years after the war?

Not sure what "reason" you are referring to.

 

[David Moore]

Well, he was accused of epilepsy and opium eating. Or did you mean credible reasons? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

In fact, there was not a lot of informed comment at the time. Welles's and Chase's Diaries, which are often great windows into the Government's thinking, are not very outspoken on this one. I don't know of any contemporary letter from Grant explaining that meeting, or what came out of it, but I am not as deeply immersed in the Grant papers as other stuff.

Well, he was accused of epilepsy and opium eating. Or did you mean credible reasons? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

In fact, there was not a lot of informed comment at the time. Welles's and Chase's Diaries, which are often great windows into the Government's thinking, are not very outspoken on this one. I don't know of any contemporary letter from Grant explaining that meeting, or what came out of it, but I am not as deeply immersed in the Grant papers as other stuff.

If you are referring as to why Rosecrans was removed I would cite the Garfield "political leaders not unwilling to see evil befall Rosecrans" quote from 1867 and JK Herbert's "get Grant head of Rosecrans army" letter of July 1863 in the Butler papers. Using the search function for this site should lead you to the full citations that I have posted here.

 

[David Moore]

This is a misrepresentation of what Grant wrote in his memoirs. Grant does not imply this He clearly states that he made the decision before he had heard anything from Dana about Rosecrans.

From Grant's Memoirs:
On the receipt of Mr. Dana's dispatch Mr. Stanton sent for me. Finding that I was out he became nervous and excited, inquiring of every person he met, including guests of the house, whether they knew where I was, and bidding them find me and send me to him at once. About eleven o'clock I returned to the hotel, and on my way, when near the house, every person met was a messenger from the Secretary, apparently partaking of his impatience to see me. I hastened to the room of the Secretary and found him pacing the floor rapidly in his dressing-gown. Saying that the retreat must be prevented, he showed me the dispatch. I immediately wrote an order assuming command of the Military Division of the Mississippi, and telegraphed it to General Rosecrans. I then telegraphed to him the order from Washington assigning Thomas to the command of the Army of the Cumberland; and to Thomas that he must hold Chattanooga at all hazards, informing him at the same time that I would be at the front as soon as possible.

How does Grant know about a retreat? The implication is that it is mentioned in the dispatch Stanton has shown Grant and was the cause of Stanton sending for Grant and becoming nervous and excited until he heard from Grant. Why would Stanton be so anxious to see Grant unless he wanted him to send the orders preventing the retreat?
There is no telegram from Dana saying that Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Dana had input from officers under Roscecrans who urged his removal. Colonel Opdycke wrote home to his wife that he felt sure Rosecrans "was shaping everything to oblige us evacuate." Opdycke wrote that he pressed Dana for the removal of Rosecrans "as strongly as I could."

Regardless of how Stanton felt about Rosecrans personally, he couldn't ignore these kind of alarming reports coming from within Rosecrans command.

 

[NedBaldwin]

From Grant's Memoirs:
On the receipt of Mr. Dana's dispatch Mr. Stanton sent for me. Finding that I was out he became nervous and excited, inquiring of every person he met, including guests of the house, whether they knew where I was, and bidding them find me and send me to him at once. About eleven o'clock I returned to the hotel, and on my way, when near the house, every person met was a messenger from the Secretary, apparently partaking of his impatience to see me. I hastened to the room of the Secretary and found him pacing the floor rapidly in his dressing-gown. Saying that the retreat must be prevented, he showed me the dispatch. I immediately wrote an order assuming command of the Military Division of the Mississippi, and telegraphed it to General Rosecrans. I then telegraphed to him the order from Washington assigning Thomas to the command of the Army of the Cumberland; and to Thomas that he must hold Chattanooga at all hazards, informing him at the same time that I would be at the front as soon as possible.

Earlier in the memiors than the part you quoted Grant tells of when he made the decision to replaces Roaecrans. According to his memoirs, the decision was made prior to hearing from Dana. Thus what you wrote in the previous post was incorrect.

There is no telegram from Dana saying that Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga.

Dana had sent previous messages about the possibility of a retreat; so the one he claims he sent, that we dont have a copy of, fits with the general trend.

 

[David Moore]

Dana had input from officers under Roscecrans who urged his removal. Colonel Opdycke wrote home to his wife that he felt sure Rosecrans "was shaping everything to oblige us evacuate."

Opdycke was wrong in that because we know Rosecrans was planning to open the cracker line. What was the date of that letter? Opdycke seems to have been greatly influenced by Charles Dana. He also seems to be rather volatile and over the top when he comments on generals. Note what he wrote after Shiloh: pg xxvi
https://books.google.com/books?id=B...cke+civil+war&q=dana#v=snippet&q=dana&f=false

 

[David Moore]

Earlier in the memiors than the part you quoted Grant tells of when he made the decision to replaces Roaecrans. According to his memoirs, the decision was made prior to hearing from Dana. Thus what you wrote in the previous post was incorrect.


Dana had sent previous messages about the possibility of a retreat; so the one he claims he sent, that we dont have a copy of, fits with the general trend.

Does a letter from Dana saying Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga exist?

 

[DanSBHawk]

Opdycke was wrong in that because we know Rosecrans was planning to open the cracker line. What was the date of that letter? Opdycke seems to have been greatly influenced by Charles Dana. He also seems to be rather volatile and over the top when he comments on generals. Note what he wrote after Shiloh: pg xxvi
https://books.google.com/books?id=B...cke+civil+war&q=dana#v=snippet&q=dana&f=false

Yes, Opdycke started out critical of Grant and then grew more impressed with him. Opdycke started out approving of Rosecrans and gradually grew more critical of him.

The date of the Opdycke letter is Oct 21st, 1863.

 

[David Moore]

Yes, Opdycke started out critical of Grant and then grew more impressed with him. Opdycke started out approving of Rosecrans and gradually grew more critical of him.

The date of the Opdycke letter is Oct 21st, 1863.

Critical to the point of saying Grant should " lose his office if not his life " for his "inexcusable inefficiencies"
At least he didn't say that about R.
It seems Opdycke was greatly swayed by Dana and tended to make sweeping judgements.

 

[johan_steele]

It seems Rosecrans wasn't as popular as some would have us believe. Clearly there were general officers in his command who were critical of him. Not that such is all that unusual.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Did Crittenden, McCook, Granger, Thomas, or any of Rosecrans other subordinates give an opinion in 1863 about Rosecrans removal?

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Not sure what "reason" you are referring to.

Reason(s) why Rosecrans was removed from command, besides Grant's memoirs. Did anyone give a reason in 1863?

 

[DanSBHawk]

Did Crittenden, McCook, Granger, Thomas, or any of Rosecrans other subordinates give an opinion in 1863 about Rosecrans removal?

I can't answer specifically what those officers were saying at the time, but Opdycke indicates that his opinion was shared by virtually all the officers he was in contact with... "I know of no officer here but is pleased with this arrangement":

Also, this was written in a private letter. I don't know if any officer would have wanted to speak out publicly against Rosecrans in the middle of that situation.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Here is another snippet from an Opdycke letter to his wife, in early Nov 1863. Note the last sentence, where he mentions he's been discussing his Rosecrans-critical account of the battle with "many officers of rank."

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Rumor of alcohol use aside (which I believe was unsubstantiated?), Opdyke's letter points out a reason Rosecrans should have been removed, IF true: that the army had lost confidence in Rosecrans. A leader cannot be effective if he has lost the confidence of most of his subordinates.

 

[David Moore]

Here is another snippet from an Opdycke letter to his wife, in early Nov 1863. Note the last sentence, where he mentions he's been discussing his Rosecrans-critical account of the battle with "many officers of rank."


View attachment 86501

Opdycke says others say Rosecrans was full of whiskey.
Do you know of any eyewitness who says Rosecrans was full of whiskey?
Opdycke, who earlier in the war said Grant should lose his office or his life after Shiloh, is one not-quite eyewitness against Rosecrans. He seems to have been greatly influenced by Dana.

For what it's worth here is what Sheridan wrote in his memoirs:
On the 19th of October, after turning the command over to Thomas, General Rosecrans quietly slipped away from the army. He submitted uncomplainingly to his removal, and modestly left us without fuss or demonstration; ever maintaining, though, that the battle of Chickamauga was in effect a victory, as it had ensured us, he said, the retention of Chattanooga. When his departure became known deep and almost universal regret was expressed, for he was enthusiastically esteemed and loved by the Army of the Cumberland, from the day he assumed command of it until he left it, notwithstanding the censure poured upon him after the battle of Chickamauga.

Montgomery Meigs in his Sept 27 letter to Washington wrote the following:
Chattanooga, September 27, 1863.

(Received 4.50 a. m., 28th.) Hon. E. M. Stanton,

Secretary of War:I have with General Rosecrans visited the lines of defense of this place. I have seen the men vigorous, hearty, cheerful, and confident. The position is very strong already, and rapidly approaching a perfect security against assault. Nothing but a regular siege could, I think, reduce it. That would take time. The difficulties of transportation of supplies are immense. The roads are rocky and mountainous, yet trainsget tli rough without much destruction of wagons. When the river rises the bridges will go, but the river will become navigable. One steam-boat and a few flats are ready for service. Another steam-boat is nearing completion. For another the machinery is at Bridgeport. The water is too low atpresent for the Paint Rock, the captured steam-boat, to navigate the river, and the rebels command the channel. When the troops understood to be on their way here arrive General Rosecrans expects to recover command of the river to Bridgeport. Supplies can then be accumulated by water. A month's hard service has much injured the wagon-trains; animals still in very fair condition, so far as I have seen them. Plenty of them here and at Nashville.

I have spent the time thus far with the commander and the chief officers of this army. It is difficult for the leaders to abstain from claiming a complete victory. They believe they could have remained upon the battle-field, and that in that case the enemy would have retired. The crushingof the right and center, or of a portion thereof, led to the movement by which the army fell back upon and occupied Chattanooga. Chattanooga is fast becoming a fortress and depot which will serve as a base of future operations. As I now see this field it appears to me that the great effort of therebels by which, concentrating in Georgia, they hoped to crush this army and recover possession of Tennessee and Kentucky, has failed. If so, thefruits of victory are with General Rosecrans, though the trophies, the battle-field, and part of the wounded have fallen into the hands of the enemy. Still, the rebels have not yet abandoned their purpose. Their camp-fires covered the hills last night. Their pickets are within rifle shot, and are visible from the intrenchments. The men await them with confidence. I doubt their attempting an assault. If they are wise I think they will not.

The railroad from Nashville to Reynoldsburg, on the Tennessee River, should be completed, securing water transportation to that point on theTennessee, and supplying Nashville depot while the Cumberland is low and the Louisville and Nashville Railroad broken or overtasked. The iron is reported on the ground; all but 4 miles graded. I have ordered ship-carpenters to be sent from Louisville to build boats at Bridgeport. Things look much better here than I expected to find them wlien I left Nashville; still success will demand efforts from the army and from the country. Of the rugged nature of this region, I had no conception when I left Washington. I never traveled on such roads before.

M. C. MEIGS, Quartermaster- General

 

[dlofting]

It is difficult for the leaders to abstain from claiming a complete victory. They believe they could have remained upon the battle-field, and that in that case the enemy would have retired. The crushing of the right and center, or of a portion thereof, led to the movement by which the army fell back upon and occupied Chattanooga.

If the leaders (of the AOC) believed they could have remained on the Chickamauga battlefield, why did they leave ?

 

[David Moore]

Did Crittenden, McCook, Granger, Thomas, or any of Rosecrans other subordinates give an opinion in 1863 about Rosecrans removal?

Granger did in 1864. Referring to the fact that it was Granger's troops that swept the rebels off missionary Ridge he wrote:
this made poor Sherman and the miserable satellites which surround him and Grant including that loathsome pimp Dana fearful, jealous and nothing would satisfy them except my destruction which they have accomplished as you are aware. Baldy Smith was also in the clique and did his best to ruin me-- he is a bad man, a hypocrite beware of him.

Nothing in this about Rosecrans being disgraced etc. A lot about collusion and jealousy among officers.

Thomas always voiced support for Rosecrans after the war.There are several second hand reports of his reluctance to replace Rosecrans and Rosecrans' insistence that he do but these are not in Thomas' own hand. Thomas not only never wrote his memoirs but his wife destroyed his papers.
Perhaps the first communication to Hooker after assuming command gives an insight into what Thomas thought about Rosecrans (my bold emphasis) :

October 19, 1863—11 p. m.
Major-General Hooker,
Stevenson:
Maj. Gen. G. H. Thomas directs me to state that in obedience to the orders of the President of the United States he has assumed command of theDepartment of the Cumberland. He desires that you will use all possible dispatch in concentrating your command and preparing to move in accordance with the instructions of General Rosecrans, leaving proper railroad guards.

J. J. REYNOLDS, Major-General and Chief of Staff.

 

[David Moore]

If the leaders (of the AOC) believed they could have remained on the Chickamauga battlefield, why did they leave ?

They were called in by Rosecrans to take part in the defense of Chattanooga..
Chattanooga was the prize not the battlefield.

 

[dlofting]

They were called in by Rosecrans to take part in the defense of Chattanooga..
Chattanooga was the prize not the battlefield.

So Rosecrans and at least some of the AOC "leaders", who I assume to be corps/division commanders, disagreed that the "enemy" would have retired from Chickamauga had the Union army remained on the field.