Rosecrans removal

[atlantis]

Did Rosecrans get shafted, kind of inclined to think so. He created an impressive force in the army of the Cumberland and his operations from Nashville to Chattanooga are top notch.
Your thoughts.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Maybe you and Qvist should read Rosecrans' Corinth report. The battle was over at noon. You two can't get the basic facts correct.

Why are you being belligerent and uncharitable in your discussion?

 

[DanSBHawk]

to secure the supply line as Powell notes would spread the army out over 20 miles and not within supporting distance of one and other. Halleck can note whatever he likes, it didn't mean it was feasible, or it was something that could be done quickly, whereas Bragg was concentrated and could move against Rosecrans while he sat idle. You need to actually engage that.

A mountain pass can presumably be defended with a smaller force. Perhaps in defensive works.

You need to engage the fact that having forces widely separated, in "pursuit" to three different objective points, was risky and stupid.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Why are you being belligerent and uncharitable in your discussion?

Don't characterize or judge my posts. Keep the discussion on the facts. The other two doubled-down on incorrect information. I pointed it out.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

A mountain pass can presumably be defended with a smaller force. Perhaps in defensive works.

You need to engage the fact that having forces widely separated, in "pursuit" to three different objective points, was risky and stupid.

You'll notice I didn't say pursuit wasn't risky. I wouldn't say it was stupid, cause I think Rosecrans didn't have a good choice to make, both were fraught with risk. What mountain pass are you talking about. I would prefer specifics here cause you seem to not have a good understanding of the geograrphy of the area? I don't want to misrepresent you, so please give a more specific areay where they are fortifying? Bridgeport and Stevenson aren't in mountain passes they are south of the Cumberland Plateau.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

Don't characterize or judge my posts. Keep the discussion on the facts. The other two doubled-down on incorrect information. I pointed it out.

Using the phrase, "you can't get basic facts correct' is a way of calling someone dumb. Both posters have offered evidence as to why the Corinth report is wrong, you would need to engage that evidence, not just table pound your conclusion over and over. That again is uncharitable, and not how discussions should work. Telling me what I can or can't judge again makes you some arbiter here, and is also uncharitable. I agree let's stick to facts. So show exactly where there facts are mistaken!

 

[Qvist]

I will happily discuss the Corinth operations in a thread dedicated to that subject.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Using the phrase, "you can't get basic facts correct' is a way of calling someone dumb. Both posters have offered evidence as to why the Corinth report is wrong, you would need to engage that evidence, not just table pound your conclusion over and over. That again is uncharitable, and not how discussions should work. Telling me what I can or can't judge again makes you some arbiter here, and is also uncharitable. I agree let's stick to facts. So show exactly where there facts are mistaken!

And yet you liked the post I was replying to which finished with "Calling the pursuit impulsive without seriously thinking through the alternatives is like calling the post-Corinth pursuit impulsive after getting several basic facts wrong."

 

[DanSBHawk]

You'll notice I didn't say pursuit wasn't risky. I wouldn't say it was stupid, cause I think Rosecrans didn't have a good choice to make, both were fraught with risk. What mountain pass are you talking about. I would prefer specifics here cause you seem to not have a good understanding of the geograrphy of the area? I don't want to misrepresent you, so please give a more specific areay where they are fortifying? Bridgeport and Stevenson aren't in mountain passes they are south of the Cumberland Plateau.

When I get time, I will find Hallecks instructions to Rosecrans to work down the railroad while keeping the mountain passes covered.

The implication that I take from that is to cover the mountain passes to protect your rear and protect your supply lines.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

When I get time, I will find Hallecks instructions to Rosecrans to work down the railroad while keeping the mountain passes covered.

The implication that I take from that is to cover the mountain passes to protect your rear and protect your supply lines.

Here is a map of the area:

This should gives an idea of the area. Bragg can maneuver behind Lookout and Sand Mountain and strike at Rosecrans rear if he concentrates at Chattanooga. OR he has to place troops at Stevenson, Bridgeport, Shellmund, and Lookout Valley, and Lookout Mountain, as well as Chattanooga. You can see how far out of the way XX Corps is, when Rosecrans finally takes Chattanooga. Rosecrans HAD to send XX Corps that far south to threaten Bragg's flank OR ELSE Bragg doesn't need to necessarily give up Chattanooga to begin with. What passes specifically are you speaking of for him to reinforce? How does this not spread Bragg out immensely?

Keep in consdideration he's doing this while Bragg is principally concentrated and can move against Rosecrans directly or against his supply line. I'll be curious what Halleck is speaking of cause it seems to be the pass north of Stevenson, but that does nothing if the Confederates take Stevenson or Bridgeport, or as Powell notes cuts the railroad in between them. It all has hte same effect of cutting Rosecrans supply.

 

[Qvist]

Don't characterize or judge my posts. Keep the discussion on the facts. The other two doubled-down on incorrect information. I pointed it out.

The information provided was correct. There are many independent sources which support that the attack of the 5th Minnesota occurred around 1:00 P.M. It is the time given by Cozzens in The Darkest Days of the War on page 269, as well, as a result.

@BCD The larger point which I was making in the other thread was about the difficulty of pursuing that night and to make the point that contrary to what was previously stated, the pursuit was vigorous and tenacious.

Again, though, I don't intend to derail this thread.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Here is a map of the area:
View attachment 592315
This should gives an idea of the area. Bragg can maneuver behind Lookout and Sand Mountain and strike at Rosecrans rear if he concentrates at Chattanooga. OR he has to place troops at Stevenson, Bridgeport, Shellmund, and Lookout Valley, and Lookout Mountain, as well as Chattanooga. You can see how far out of the way XX Corps is, when Rosecrans finally takes Chattanooga. Rosecrans HAD to send XX Corps that far south to threaten Bragg's flank OR ELSE Bragg doesn't need to necessarily give up Chattanooga to begin with. What passes specifically are you speaking of for him to reinforce? How does this not spread Bragg out immensely?

Keep in consdideration he's doing this while Bragg is principally concentrated and can move against Rosecrans directly or against his supply line. I'll be curious what Halleck is speaking of cause it seems to be the pass north of Stevenson, but that does nothing if the Confederates take Stevenson or Bridgeport, or as Powell notes cuts the railroad in between them. It all has hte same effect of cutting Rosecrans supply.

And what did Halleck instruct in the scenario that Bragg moves southwest? Halleck instructed Burnside to pull his forces together and move down to Chattanooga, while Rosecrans would move south on Bragg.

Every scenario creates the possibility of another scenario. They would have needed to respond to whatever developed.

I'm saying that the prudent thing for Rosecrans to do was to immediately concentrate his forces so he doesn't get defeated in detail. If he had done that first, instead of doing it only when he realized he was in danger, he may have went into the battle less exhausted and less frazzled and made better decisions.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

And yet you liked the post I was replying to which finished with "Calling the pursuit impulsive without seriously thinking through the alternatives is like calling the post-Corinth pursuit impulsive after getting several basic facts wrong."

I must of skimmed and didn't see that part. That shouldn't have been said as well, and is also uncharitable.

 

[Qvist]

Rapid consolidation was going to be contested every step of the way by Bragg, who would immediately attempt to cut the Army of the Cumberland off from Chattanooga. There were no easy answers with the main impetus of the campaign crossing the ranges south of the city.

 

[Wizard of Cozz]

And what did Halleck instruct in the scenario that Bragg moves southwest? Halleck instructed Burnside to pull his forces together and move down to Chattanooga, while Rosecrans would move south on Bragg.

Every scenario creates the possibility of another scenario. They would have needed to respond to whatever developed.

I'm saying that the prudent thing for Rosecrans to do was to immediately concentrate his forces so he doesn't get defeated in detail. If he had done that first, instead of doing it only when he realized he was in danger, he may have went into the battle less exhausted and less frazzled and made better decisions.

View attachment 592316

Burnside never moves to help Rosecrans. If that is what happened. Then Rosecrans never would of turned anything over to Burnside, cause Burnside never came, even when Rosecrans was beseiged, Burnside did nothing. I'm not sure how Rosecrans can move against Bragg or that Burnside can hold Chattanooga if the supply line is cut thought.

 

[BCD]

Maybe you and Qvist should read Rosecrans' Corinth report. The battle was over at noon. You two can't get the basic facts correct.

Oh, so now we're uncritically taking Rosecrans' words at face value, are we?

 

[DanSBHawk]

Burnside never moves to help Rosecrans. If that is what happened. Then Rosecrans never would of turned anything over to Burnside, cause Burnside never came, even when Rosecrans was beseiged, Burnside did nothing. I'm not sure how Rosecrans can move against Bragg or that Burnside can hold Chattanooga if the supply line is cut thought.

That scenario from Halleck is if Bragg goes south around the right of Rosecrans.

 

[BCD]

I must of skimmed and didn't see that part. That shouldn't have been said as well, and is also uncharitable.

To be clear, I was observing that he didn't get the basic facts right in his claim, not that he couldn't. There's still hope yet!

 

[DanSBHawk]

never mind

 

[DanSBHawk]

This should gives an idea of the area. Bragg can maneuver behind Lookout and Sand Mountain and strike at Rosecrans rear if he concentrates at Chattanooga. OR he has to place troops at Stevenson, Bridgeport, Shellmund, and Lookout Valley, and Lookout Mountain, as well as Chattanooga. You can see how far out of the way XX Corps is, when Rosecrans finally takes Chattanooga. Rosecrans HAD to send XX Corps that far south to threaten Bragg's flank OR ELSE Bragg doesn't need to necessarily give up Chattanooga to begin with. What passes specifically are you speaking of for him to reinforce? How does this not spread Bragg out immensely?

Keep in consdideration he's doing this while Bragg is principally concentrated and can move against Rosecrans directly or against his supply line. I'll be curious what Halleck is speaking of cause it seems to be the pass north of Stevenson, but that does nothing if the Confederates take Stevenson or Bridgeport, or as Powell notes cuts the railroad in between them. It all has hte same effect of cutting Rosecrans supply.

Here is another communication from Halleck. This may be the one I was thinking of, but I think there may be another one as well. Halleck wants Rosecrans to hold the mountain passes, and also hold a spot on the railroad, to prevent Bragg from returning. He suggests Dalton, but it's clearly up to Rosecrans to choose the spot. Rosecrans is not to proceed further into Georgia as of yet.

Halleck's other messages, such as the one earlier, have instructions as to what to do if Bragg moves south and west around Rosecrans' right.