Replacing Rosecrans with Thomas: October 1863

[Horace Porter]

As you know, when Grant was offered command of the brand-new Military Division of the Mississippi, he was given the choice to retain William S. Rosecrans in command of the Army of the Cumberland or to replace him with George H. Thomas. What would you have done, and why? Was it fair to replace Rosecrans after all he had done?

 

[nitrofd]

What ever you may say about Grant,he was a fighter and Rosecrans running from the field to not fit Grants mold.easy Rosecrans ran,Thomnas fought.no brainer here.

 

[civilken]

Gen. Rosencrantz had his downfalls but all in all I must say he was not all that bad. Gen. Howard on the other hand I feel was an exceptional general I especially admired his two-day weight in Tennessee while he used the elements to slow up the enemy and then finish them off. And unlike Rosencrantz you could always find Howard in the thick of it besides as a Virginian he was born to be a northern and a patriot.

 

[leftyhunter]

As you know, when Grant was offered command of the brand-new Military Division of the Mississippi, he was given the choice to retain William S. Rosecrans in command of the Army of the Cumberland or to replace him with George H. Thomas. What would you have done, and why? Was it fair to replace Rosecrans after all he had done?

Hindsight being 20/20 Thomas seemed to work out just fine as commander of the AoC.
Leftyhunter

 

[David Moore]

Gen. Rosencrantz had his downfalls but all in all I must say he was not all that bad. Gen. Howard on the other hand I feel was an exceptional general I especially admired his two-day weight in Tennessee while he used the elements to slow up the enemy and then finish them off. And unlike Rosencrantz you could always find Howard in the thick of it besides as a Virginian he was born to be a northern and a patriot.

Rosecrans was usually in the thick of it particularly at Stones River.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

One of the things that complicates the issue is that Thomas should have been in command in the first place, not Rosecrans. That is not Rosecrans fault; he didn't politic to replace Buell instead of Thomas. But I would think it would have weighed on the minds of some of the folks making the decision: "We wanted Thomas a year ago. Thomas just saved the army at Chickamauga. Shouldn't we put Thomas be in charge now?"

The decision was placed in Grant's hands. Grant made the decision for the change of command while making a personal visit and meeting with both men. He may have been negatively biased from past experience with Rosecrans and this may have caused to him to be less inclined to give Rosecrans a second chance.

Can anyone share some primary source quotes from Grant, Rawlins, or someone else who was there regarding what Grant saw and who he talked to from the time he arrived until the time he relieved Rosecrans? I've only read about the specifics once and that was in Cozzens' book.

 

[NedBaldwin]

One of the things that complicates the issue is that Thomas should have been in command in the first place, not Rosecrans. That is not Rosecrans fault; he didn't politic to replace Buell instead of Thomas. But I would think it would have weighed on the minds of some of the folks making the decision: "We wanted Thomas a year ago. Thomas just saved the army at Chickamauga. Shouldn't we put Thomas be in charge now?"

The decision was placed in Grant's hands. Grant made the decision for the change of command while making a personal visit and meeting with both men. He may have been negatively biased from past experience with Rosecrans and this may have caused to him to be less inclined to give Rosecrans a second chance.

Can anyone share some primary source quotes from Grant, Rawlins, or someone else who was there regarding what Grant saw and who he talked to from the time he arrived until the time he relieved Rosecrans? I've only read about the specifics once and that was in Cozzens' book.

Grant releived Rosecrans before he arrived. He met Stanton on the train while travelling across the midwest. Stanton offered him two orders -- one kept Rosecrans; one replaced him with Thomas. Grant picked the second one before he had communicated with either general. This is how Grant described it in his memoirs:
"Soon after we started the Secretary handed me two orders, saying that I might take my choice of them. The two were identical in all but one particular. Both created the "Military Division of Mississippi," (giving me the command) composed of the Departments of the Ohio, the Cumberland, and the Tennessee, and all the territory from the Alleghanies to the Mississippi River north of Banks's command in the south-west. One order left the department commanders as they were, while the other relieved Rosecrans and assigned Thomas to his place. I accepted the latter."

 

[leftyhunter]

One of the things that complicates the issue is that Thomas should have been in command in the first place, not Rosecrans. That is not Rosecrans fault; he didn't politic to replace Buell instead of Thomas. But I would think it would have weighed on the minds of some of the folks making the decision: "We wanted Thomas a year ago. Thomas just saved the army at Chickamauga. Shouldn't we put Thomas be in charge now?"

The decision was placed in Grant's hands. Grant made the decision for the change of command while making a personal visit and meeting with both men. He may have been negatively biased from past experience with Rosecrans and this may have caused to him to be less inclined to give Rosecrans a second chance.

Can anyone share some primary source quotes from Grant, Rawlins, or someone else who was there regarding what Grant saw and who he talked to from the time he arrived until the time he relieved Rosecrans? I've only read about the specifics once and that was in Cozzens' book.

Grants memoirs has Ned Baldwin stated have Grants side of what happened. Also you can probably goggle "Battles and Leaders of the Civil War" edited by Ned Bradford Appleton Century Crofts p.448-450 which has Grantsmemoirs about relieving Rosecrans.
Leftyhunter

 

[Michael W.]

I have tried to look at Rosecrans objectively over the years, and I always come to the same conclusion. I don't fault him for the defeat at Chickamauga, the opening that occurred (at the worst possible place and moment) could have potentially happened to any commander. Where he dropped the ball in my opinion is how he reacted. Taking off and leaving the field, for any reason that can be argued in favor or against, just looks BAD. It was the aftermath, being holed up in Chattanooga, with supplies running low, food scarce, and he seemed frozen. ("Like a duck hit on the head") Lincoln summed it up best. If he IS stunned, frozen in place, do you want to retain him in said command?

 

[David Moore]

One of the things that complicates the issue is that Thomas should have been in command in the first place, not Rosecrans. That is not Rosecrans fault; he didn't politic to replace Buell instead of Thomas. But I would think it would have weighed on the minds of some of the folks making the decision: "We wanted Thomas a year ago. Thomas just saved the army at Chickamauga. Shouldn't we put Thomas be in charge now?"

The decision was placed in Grant's hands. Grant made the decision for the change of command while making a personal visit and meeting with both men. He may have been negatively biased from past experience with Rosecrans and this may have caused to him to be less inclined to give Rosecrans a second chance.

Can anyone share some primary source quotes from Grant, Rawlins, or someone else who was there regarding what Grant saw and who he talked to from the time he arrived until the time he relieved Rosecrans? I've only read about the specifics once and that was in Cozzens' book.

Grant relieved Rosecrans from a hotel room in Louisville days before he arrived in Chattanooga. Grant, in his Memoirs, implies he made the decision based on a telegram from Charles Dana saying Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga. No such telegram is in the Official Records or has ever been located. This sequence of events is discussed in my book and also in Frank Varney's book on Grant's Memoirs.

Thomas was a great general and friend to Rosecrans. However I have seen little to show that he was as innovative as Rosecrans in planning a campaign and in building an army. He was a fighter mainly. Thomas is reported to have called Rosecrans " a better general" at a public banquet. This may have only been his innate modesty expressing itself but it does show that Thomas held Rosecrans in high regard. There is much on the Thomas-Rosecrans relationship in William Lamers' book and my own book.

 

[Sbc]

Grant relieved Rosecrans from a hotel room in Louisville days before he arrived in Chattanooga. Grant, in his Memoirs, says he made the decision based on a telegram from Charles Dana saying Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga. No such telegram is in the Official Records or has ever been located. This sequence of events is discussed in my book and also in Frank Varney's book on Grant's Memoirs.

Thomas was a great general and friend to Rosecrans. However I have seen little to show that he was as innovative as Rosecrans in planning a campaign and in building an army as Rosecrans. He was a fighter mainly. Thomas is reported to have called Rosecrans " a better general" at a public banquet. THis may have only been his innate modesty expressing itself but it does show that Thomas held Rosecrans in high regard. There is much on the Thomas-Rosecrans relationship in William Lamers' book and my own book.

And a fighter was what was needed. The army was capable thanks to Rosecrans.

 

[Sbc]

I have tried to look at Rosecrans objectively over the years, and I always come to the same conclusion. I don't fault him for the defeat at Chickamauga, the opening that occurred (at the worst possible place and moment) could have potentially happened to any commander. Where he dropped the ball in my opinion is how he reacted. Taking off and leaving the field, for any reason that can be argued in favor or against, just looks BAD. It was the aftermath, being holed up in Chattanooga, with supplies running low, food scarce, and he seemed frozen. ("Like a duck hit on the head") Lincoln summed it up best. If he IS stunned, frozen in place, do you want to retain him in said command?

Exactly. Fight like a man. He stays on the field and history is kindly disposed toward him.

 

[David Moore]

Grant releived Rosecrans before he arrived. He met Stanton on the train while travelling across the midwest. Stanton offered him two orders -- one kept Rosecrans; one replaced him with Thomas. Grant picked the second one before he had communicated with either general. This is how Grant described it in his memoirs:
"Soon after we started the Secretary handed me two orders, saying that I might take my choice of them. The two were identical in all but one particular. Both created the "Military Division of Mississippi," (giving me the command) composed of the Departments of the Ohio, the Cumberland, and the Tennessee, and all the territory from the Alleghanies to the Mississippi River north of Banks's command in the south-west. One order left the department commanders as they were, while the other relieved Rosecrans and assigned Thomas to his place. I accepted the latter."

And a fighter was what was needed. The army was capable thanks to Rosecrans.

It was Rosecrans who put Thomas in the center of the AotC and at Chickamauga moved him to the left to protect the all important road to Chattanooga. Rosecrans understood the importance of Thomas. Thomas in turn utilized the innovations Rosecrans created while serving under the less innovative Sherman. They were the great team of the Great Union army.

 

[Sbc]

It was Rosecrans who put Thomas in the center of the AotC and at Chickamauga moved him to the left to protect the all important road to Chattanooga. Rosecrans understood the importance of Thomas. Thomas in turn utilized the innovations Rosecrans created while serving under the less innovative Sherman. They were the great team of the Great Union army.

Regardless of innovations he had to go

 

[Jamieva]

Interesting use of the word innovative

 

[NedBaldwin]

Grant, in his Memoirs, implies he made the decision based on a telegram from Charles Dana saying Rosecrans was about to retreat from Chattanooga.

This is a misrepresentation of what Grant wrote in his memoirs. Grant does not imply this He clearly states that he made the decision before he had heard anything from Dana about Rosecrans.

 

[Dave Powell]

While in his memoirs Grant claimed that he made the final decision, I think there is strong evidence that Rosecrans's fate was already determined by Stanton.

Indiana Governor Oliver P. Morton met with Stanton at the depot in Indianapolis, before Grant's train arrived. Morton would later claim that Stanton told him that Rosecrans was being replaced because Rosecrans had lost the will to fight. Stanton based this conclusion (very erroneously, or perhaps maliciously, on a telegram Rosecrans sent to Lincoln on about October 3rd, proposing a truce and amnesty offer to CSA soldiers.)

Stanton told Morton that Rosecrans had suggested a general amnesty and truce, further suggesting that Rosecrans thought the war was unwinnable. That is of course not at all the content of the original telegram, but rather Stanton's "spin" on the matter.

In short, I suspect that Grant received those two orders as a way for the government to have political cover, but in reality, Grant only had one real choice. Stanton was unlikely to be satisfied with Rosecrans's retention.

Morton's story appeared in an Indianapolis newspaper in the 1870s. Lamers cites it as well.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Did anyone cite a reason in 1863, rather than years after the war?

 

[David Moore]

While in his memoirs Grant claimed that he made the final decision, I think there is strong evidence that Rosecrans's fate was already determined by Stanton.

Indiana Governor Oliver P. Morton met with Stanton at the depot in Indianapolis, before Grant's train arrived. Morton would later claim that Stanton told him that Rosecrans was being replaced because Rosecrans had lost the will to fight. Stanton based this conclusion (very erroneously, or perhaps maliciously, on a telegram Rosecrans sent to Lincoln on about October 3rd, proposing a truce and amnesty offer to CSA soldiers.)

Stanton told Morton that Rosecrans had suggested a general amnesty and truce, further suggesting that Rosecrans thought the war was unwinnable. That is of course not at all the content of the original telegram, but rather Stanton's "spin" on the matter.

In short, I suspect that Grant received those two orders as a way for the government to have political cover, but in reality, Grant only had one real choice. Stanton was unlikely to be satisfied with Rosecrans's retention.

Morton's story appeared in an Indianapolis newspaper in the 1870s. Lamers cites it as well.

All of this was being decided by higher ups in Washington. "Politcal leaders" as they were called by Garfield. Grant, in my opinion, was in many ways an actor in a role he didn't choose for himself. He later grew to like the role but that's another story. To understand Grant and how he got to Virginia in 1864 as a Lt General one has to understand the role of Washburne.

 

[Dave Powell]

Well, he was accused of epilepsy and opium eating. Or did you mean credible reasons? (sorry, I couldn't resist)

In fact, there was not a lot of informed comment at the time. Welles's and Chase's Diaries, which are often great windows into the Government's thinking, are not very outspoken on this one. I don't know of any contemporary letter from Grant explaining that meeting, or what came out of it, but I am not as deeply immersed in the Grant papers as other stuff.