William S. Rosecrans

[DanSBHawk]

You might get a fuller picture if you read my book. The Grant-Rosecrans divide is real and started during the War. It was bitter. History isn't a public relations campaign. Grant had problems with other generals too.
I'm not alone in noting the Grant-Rosecrans divide. Check out Evan Jones' essay in Gateway to the Confederacy.

I've read the Evan Jones' essay and as I remember he does not come to a conclusion that either Grant or Rosecrans were solely to blame for the rift.

 

[DanSBHawk]

It is a fallacy to post made up alternative facts on a thread where everyone else is very knowledgeable.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, Rhea. I can provide a link to Hascall's book if you'd like. It's free on Gutenberg.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you, Rhea. I can provide a link to Hascall's book if you'd like. It's free on Gutenberg.

I was not referring to you. I should have made it explicit that I was in agreement with your posts.

 

[David Moore]

It is a fallacy to post made up alternative facts on a thread where everyone else is very knowledgeable.

I was not referring to you. I should have made it explicit that I was in agreement with your posts.

Hard to tell what's fact and what's opinion when there's little to no documentation.
I've made a point of documenting or offering to document what I post here. I've written a book that is full of documentation. Sadly that seems to be unimportant here.
Not a big deal in the wider world of CW research.

 

[LematLemat]

Some time ago the anti Grant and pro Thomas-Rosecrans arguments on this board made me reevaluate my opinions on these matters and ironically made me think less of Thomas rather than more. And I had a higher opinion of him than of anyone, now I think him inferior not only to Grant but also to Sherman, Meade, Sheridan and Ord.

Out of curiosity, what factors, in your view, place Thomas' ability below those people? Especially Ord.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Out of curiosity, what factors, in your view, place Thomas' ability below those people? Especially Ord.

It was not a zero sum game. Thomas was a unique character. Sadly, he was unable to finish his memoir.

As so often happens, Thomas & Rosecrans as a team complimented one another. The topological unit Thomas created & how he used it was unprecedented. 20,000 multicolor maps were produced with a solar powered copying machine & issued during the Tullahoma / Chattanooga Campaign. The Army of TN was still producing maps one at a time by pen & ink like medieval monks.

I see no point in comparing apples & oranges.

 

[VeronicaLake12]

It is a fallacy to post made up alternative facts on a thread where everyone else is very knowledgeable.

And everyone is very knowledgeable on this thread and for that I'm very thankful. Since I first came across General Rosecrans in an article in America's Civil War May 1999" The ill wind at Iuka blew away all hope of future cooperation between Grant and Rosecrans" I've been intrigued and ready to learn about the man. Still waiting on the book by David Moore!

 

[VeronicaLake12]

The author of the editorial says" the meteorological quirk of acoustic shadow was an ill wind indeed. It poisoned Grants and Rosecrans personal and professional relationship.

 

[David Moore]

It was not a zero sum game. Thomas was a unique character. Sadly, he was unable to finish his memoir.

As so often happens, Thomas & Rosecrans as a team complimented one another. The topological unit Thomas created & how he used it was unprecedented. 20,000 multicolor maps were produced with a solar powered copying machine & issued during the Tullahoma / Chattanooga Campaign. The Army of TN was still producing maps one at a time by pen & ink like medieval monks.

I see no point in comparing apples & oranges.

A serious informational question. What is the source that for saying Thomas was involved in creating maps? My research gives that role to William Margedent and later William Merrill with supervising input from Rosecrans.

 

[David Moore]

And everyone is very knowledgeable on this thread and for that I'm very thankful. Since I first came across General Rosecrans in an article in America's Civil War May 1999" The ill wind at Iuka blew away all hope of future cooperation between Grant and Rosecrans" I've been intrigued and ready to learn about the man. Still waiting on the book by David Moore!

There may have been some people who didn't hear noise from the battle but many including people at the top did. Iuka is my current long term area of study. More recent essays by Evan Jones discuss the rift that began at Iuka in greater detail.
Don't grow too attached to Rosecrans - assuming you might. He has little current value in bolstering political or cultural views. He did however do important things in the War and contributed greatly to the Union victory. You'll find plenty to support that view in my book. Be directo read the introduction first.

 

[Rhea Cole]

And everyone is very knowledgeable on this thread and for that I'm very thankful. Since I first came across General Rosecrans in an article in America's Civil War May 1999" The ill wind at Iuka blew away all hope of future cooperation between Grant and Rosecrans" I've been intrigued and ready to learn about the man. Still waiting on the book by David Moore!

Grant is quoted as saying that Rosecrans had 90% of what took to be a great general. Grant had a profound understanding of tempo & how it led to victory. We have an example today. The pause that allowed the the Russians to fortify is what Grant sought to avoid. As soon as Grant arrived in Chattanooga, he ordered Thomas to attack. Thomas & Smith argued him out of it & showed what they intended to do.

As I noted above, Dana's dispatches to Lincoln are referred to as a clinical study of the effects of sleep deprivation & stress.

The original log is at the Huntington Library. Dana had a personal cypher & his messages were entered into a dedicated log. It makes fascinating reading, Do like Lincoln did & read it out loud to friends. It's about as close to being there as I know of.

 

[David Moore]

This may be behind a paywall. A similar essay is in Gateway to the Confederacy.
Jones' work came out after my book was done so I didn't cite it.

From Friends to Enemies: Grant vs. Rosecrans

The Battle of Iuka sparked animosity between Ulysses S. Grant and William S. Rosecrans. CADET ULYSSES GRANT stood stiffly at attention on the grounds of

www.historynet.com

 

[David Moore]

Grant is quoted as saying that Rosecrans had 90% of what took to be a great general. Grant had a profound understanding of tempo & how it led to victory. We have an example today. The pause that allowed the the Russians to fortify is what Grant sought to avoid. As soon as Grant arrived in Chattanooga, he ordered Thomas to attack. Thomas & Smith argued him out of it & showed what they intended to do.

As I noted above, Dana's dispatches to Lincoln are referred to as a clinical study of the effects of sleep deprivation & stress.

The original log is at the Huntington Library. Dana had a personal cypher & his messages were entered into a dedicated log. It makes fascinating reading, Do like Lincoln did & read it out loud to friends. It's about as close to being there as I know of.

Grant said that where? In his Memoirs written years after the facts and not regarded as reliable on many topics?

You've mentioned the log at the Huntington Library but to the best of my knowledge have never cited anything from it. Are they different firm what's in the Official Records?
Dana is hardly a reliable source as he was considered Stanton's spy by many and a "loathsome pimp" by Granger. Still I'd like to see some of the things you reference from the Huntington. Perhaps you could post what you consider the most important.

 

[67th Tigers]

It was not a zero sum game. Thomas was a unique character. Sadly, he was unable to finish his memoir.

As so often happens, Thomas & Rosecrans as a team complimented one another. The topological unit Thomas created & how he used it was unprecedented. 20,000 multicolor maps were produced with a solar powered copying machine & issued during the Tullahoma / Chattanooga Campaign. The Army of TN was still producing maps one at a time by pen & ink like medieval monks.

I see no point in comparing apples & oranges.

The topography unit of the Army of the Cumberland had (edit) two of Captain Margedant's facsimile presses, which is what I believe you're alluding to. It used silver nitrate, like all photographic processes of the time, and so was greyscale and negative. The maps were then hand coloured by draughtsmen. The facsimile's exposure time was 30-45 minutes in bright sunlight to 90 minutes if overcast, and maybe a dozen duplicates per day could be made per press. On a typical day maybe a dozen copies could be made. It was, however, a huge improvement on the Woodward solar camera initially used.

Since about 4,000 maps duplications were produced during the Atlanta six months of the Atlanta campaign (with about 1,000 in July '64), I have reason to doubt 20,000 during the 1863 campaigns. I suspect the number might be 2,000? They were only issued to army HQ, corps HQ's and the leftovers to divisions. It was 1864 before brigadiers might get a map.

 

[David Moore]

Here's an excerpt from a post war letter written by Margedant to Rosecrans:

The Topographical Department of the Army of the Cumberland was the best organized and best equipped and most effective Topographical Department in the field. Considering the circumstances, time and urgent want of such a department, it may be safely said that it was a perfect one. We had representative engineer and surveyors with brigades, divisions and army corps and even with regiments and outposts. No scouting or reconnoitering party went out without its engineer; additions and corrections to our information maps had to be sent daily to our office at headquarters; We corrected, enlarged and combined our maps in accordance with such reports, and such information as we procured ourselves at the headquarters, through information of prisoners, scouts and our own personal reconnoitering. The revised information maps were then printed at night or in a special printing wagon, in the time of the march, and distributed by special messengers or through the usual channels of the army. Engineers and commanders of troops were thus constantly kept advised and ordered to make additions or corrections at once and report the same to headquarters. We often employed as high as thirty draftsmen; we had a large and full equipment of photographic apparatuses, among them solar cameras to enlarge views of rebel fortifications. We had two lithographic presses, and no doubt, you remember well our black field maps, printing and multiplying quickly the maps on the wagon in time of the march. We furnished every commander with the black maps and a bottle of potassium, which should be used same as ink, producing white lines. (You remember General, that this process was an invention of my own and that the so called "blueprint' of drawings and maps now so largely used, has sprung from them.)
You well remember the maps which we printed on the reversed side of neckties and handkerchiefs, yes, even on the reversed side of shirt-bossoms (sic) and sleeves, for the use of scouts and spies.
Most certainly, there was no department more serviceable and which had done more service than the Topographical Engineer Department of the Army of the Cumberland. The organization of a Topographical Dept. was not specified in the Army regulations. It was a creation of our own, brought to life by your orders and directions, and inspired by your personal influence. I said above, that there was no material change in the department when you left; we kept onward following the spirit of the founder.

If you like like we can move to the sanitary conditions of the AOTC I'm serious.
I know most of this is falling on deaf ears and blind eyes but someone needs to post it and maybe someone will read it and decide to read outside the box.

 

[67th Tigers]

If they had two contact presses, and each took on average about an hour to develop a print, then they could make about two dozen prints a day. These were then hand coloured by the draftsmen.

There's a general and his senior staff who probably need several copies. There are four infantry corps who probably need two (one for the GOC and one for his AG) = 8. The cavalry corps commander and his division commanders probably each need one, and there maybe the brigadiers. The 14 infantry division commanders might also need one. We've already probably exceeded printing capacity if we're sending out one updated map per day.

How often did commanders get a current map?

 

[JerryD]

Fuller picture and ignorant don't mean the same thing. I haven't told anyone to buy my book but to read it and then only if they're going to criticize what they think I believe on this topic. Let's leave it at that.

Perhaps you haven't, but that is the impression you are giving. Self awareness is a good thing. You come across as saying everyone who disagrees with you is uninformed, and it looks like you are constantly shilling for your book.

 

[TallTallMan]

Rosecrans was great because he saw the importance of repeaters as an evolution in the winning of the War. He wrote nineteen letters to Stanton requesting them. He even contacted Benjamin Henry. Sadly, it wasn't to be.

As much as that gap story is overtold, what general hasn't screwed up at least once?

Rosey suffers for two reasons: Grant did not like him (his opinions dominate CW historigraphy, such as the prevailing views on Longstreet and Lee) and he was a Democrat, the so-called "villains" of the conflict.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Rosecrans had no one but himself to blame for his misfortunes.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Rosecrans was irrationally brave. He was actually in front of the battle line on numerous occasions. As a result, he wore the brains & blood of aides on his coat almost as a trademark.

The field where a cannonball struck the head of an aide, showering Rosecrans with gore, is between the cemetery & the Hazen Brigade Monument at Stones River NB. As a livinging history volunteer at the park, I have contemplated on that event & site for 30 years.

As we know, the sight of "Old Rosey" mounted on a magnificent horse right there in the thick of the fighting inspired a fierce loyalty in the soldiers. At the same time, the nonsense orders he shouted at officers in a jackhammer stutter perplexed & alarmed officers who rightly ignored his commands.

Shelby Foote said that Grant had 2:00 in the morning courage. He remained calm & analytical at all times. Rosecrans had both intellect & physical courage at an elite level, of that there is no doubt. His over reaction to his inability to process the tactical chaos of battle was his fatal weakness. At Chickamauga he implemented his engineer's solution to that problem. It is a profound irony that his attempt at managing a battle like an army commander is dismissed as a fiasco.

As so often happens in battle Longstreet, who had received no orders from Bragg, decided to attack just where & when a mistake opened a hole in the Army of the Cumberland's line. A river of ink has excoriated Rosecrans for falling back & organizing the successful defense of Chattanooga… exactly what he should have done. There was not a square mile of strategic ground on the Chickamauga battlefield. Every square inch of Chattanooga was existentially strategic. By securing Chattanooga, Rosecrans made Chickamauga nothing but a strategically empty tactical setback. As Dana documented, Rosecrans' officers saw it in that light almost immediately.

Grant wrote that the only criticism of Rosecrans' preparations for lifting the supply bottlenecks at Chattanooga was that he had not already implemented them.

The very characteristics that made Rosecrans a great departmental commander prevented him from being a great tactical combat leader.

Rosecrans wore two hats. He was both commander of the 240,000 man Department of the Cumberland & the Army of the Cumberland. He was arguably an elite departmental commander. It would have been better for all concerned if George Thomas had been the army commander. Their hand in glove partnership would have had unbounded potential. That was not to be.

In the end at Chattanooga Rosecrans was like so many brilliant entrepreneurs. He had created the Army of the Cumberland with all its innovative elements by applying his huge intellect & engineer's aptitude. It was time to step aside & let a man with very different talents manage the enterprise.