William S. Rosecrans

Some time ago the anti Grant and pro Thomas-Rosecrans arguments on this board made me reevaluate my opinions on these matters and ironically made me think less of Thomas rather than more. And I had a higher opinion of him than of anyone, now I think him inferior not only to Grant but also to Sherman, Meade, Sheridan and Ord.
 
I doubt Grant worried much about being shown up. Evidently Lincoln and Stanton didn't either.
Grant very much cared in 1862. He evidently suffered an alcohol relapse after Missionary Ridge ( according to Rawlins)
It's all politics. It was imperative that a Democrat not emerge as the great hero of the War. This shouldn't shock anyone. It's in my book. Really it's tough for me to discuss this with people who haven't read deeply and outside the conventional literature.
 
Some time ago the anti Grant and pro Thomas-Rosecrans arguments on this board made me reevaluate my opinions on these matters and ironically made me think less of Thomas rather than more. And I had a higher opinion of him than of anyone, now I think him inferior not only to Grant but also to Sherman, Meade, Sheridan and Ord.
Because of things posted here? How? Why? Recent literature is favorable to Rosecrans and Thomas. Grant is more extolled as a president than a general today. You are of course entitled to your opinions.
 
Rosecrans did little public proselytizing. Catholicism was associated with Irish and to a lesser extent German immigrants. Rosecrans was not descended from either group. His was an intellectual conversion. This is discussed in my book.
In general he advocated public religiosity.
His religious beliefs did influence his attitude towards slavery. He was the first prominent Democrat general to support emancipation.
The Catholic Church -like every national religious denomination- was nuanced on emancipation. However General Rosecrans, his brother Sylverster- a priest, bishop and convert, and Bishop Purcell of Cincinnati were strong anti slavery advocates. General Rosecrans is a fascinating and Important personage in the war. Sad that he is all but unknown. Sadder that he is attacked so much.
In your professional opinion is Rosecrans attacked mostly from fans of U.S. Grant? If so, why? Wasn't both gentlemen fighting on the same side? Let me put it this way if I may. Did New England Patriots fans pull for Tom Brady while pulling against Bill Belichick?
 
In your professional opinion is Rosecrans attacked mostly from fans of U.S. Grant? If so, why? Wasn't both gentlemen fighting on the same side? Let me put it this way if I may. Did New England Patriots fans pull for Tom Brady while pulling against Bill Belichick?
I think there is a divide between Grant and Rosecrans that can't be bridged. It originated during the War. Basically the Rosecrans position is that Grant benefitted from what Rosecrans did in northern Mississippi in 1862 and Tennessee in 1863.
I think today Grant has been transformed into more than a general but an advocate for racial justice particularly during his presidency. (An irony is that Rosecrans was the first successful general to support emancipation.) Grant has been elevated to being one of the greatest figures in American history. Strange for a man who was caused a split in his party in 1872 and denied a chance for a third term in 1880.
My point would be that Grant had political backing no other general had, learned on the job and lost many more lives than necessary.
I stumbled upon Rosecrans over 35 years ago Who had ever heard of him?
My endeavor has simply been to relate what happened and how it was interpreted during the lifetime of the people involved. George Thomas has suffered a similar fate but because he never directly conflicted with Grant he has had a better fate. Grant was about to relieve Thomas before the battle of Nashville in December 1864.
The use of history IMO is to bolster current political and cultural opinions. However history itself is what actually happened which requires deep research and ultimately is only an approximation.
As far as your football analogy a better one might be with coaches when one replaces another but wins with the team assembled by the departed coach. There are examples but the last thing this site needs is sports disputes.
 
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This is simply not true. Washburne was ready to give up on Grant during the attempts on Vicksburg, and yet Lincoln stuck with Grant. Washburne was important in Grant's career but the value of his advocacy shouldn't be overstated. Washburne was also an advocate for Hurlbut, and that didn't exactly produce great results for Hurlbut.
Sources? You might want to look over the Washburne Papers which are on line. I cite things relevant to Washburne in my book that I've not seen anywhere else. If you're going to criticize my work you should at the very least read my book. Then you can rip it to shreds on this site - with or without documentation. It almost seems that your main concern is to disuade people from reading my book by panning it even though you've never read it.
 
I think it was Steedman who said that the war had just gotten too big for Rosecrans. Kind of sums up chickamauga for me
Well the battle had gotten too big in terms of the enemy's numbers but I don't think you can blame Rosecrans for that.
Steedman had his own dispute with Gordon Granger about Chickamauga.
 
Sources? You might want to look over the Washburne Papers which are on line. I cite things relevant to Washburne in my book that I've not seen anywhere else. If you're going to criticize my work you should at the very least read my book. Then you can rip it to shreds on this site - with or without documentation. It almost seems that your main concern is to disuade people from reading my book by panning it even though you've never read it.
You problem is, you come across as a partisan instead of a neutral observer. I have seen far too many value judgements from you that tell where your prejudice lies. And I continue to disagree with your contention that you have to like either Rosecrans or Grant, but you can't like both. You made that argument to me in another thread, and I find it ridiculous, since I respect them both.
 
Milo Hascall served with Rosecrans in the early 50's and noted how obsessed he was with Catholicism.
Hascall is the one big critic I've found of Rosecrans' religiosity. I cite a long critical passage from of Hascall in my book. ( The one with the Allah, white elephants and Chinese Gongs references since you seem to be familiar with it)
More interestingly is the number of Protestants who supported Rosecrans including Garfield and Henry Boynton the son of a Congregational minister. Methodist bishop David Moore ( No relation to me) published a front page encomium after Rosecrans' death in 1898.
This is all in my book which frankly you should read if you're going to criticize my opinions.
 
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Well the battle had gotten too big in terms of the enemy's numbers but I don't think you can blame Rosecrans for that.
Steedman had his own dispute with Gordon Granger about Chickamauga.
You can blame Rosecrans for having separated his army and losing his nerve once his right retreated at chickamauga.
 
You problem is, you come across as a partisan instead of a neutral observer. I have seen far too many value judgements from you that tell where your prejudice lies. And I continue to disagree with your contention that you have to like either Rosecrans or Grant, but you can't like both. You made that argument to me in another thread, and I find it ridiculous, since I respect them both.
You might get a fuller picture if you read my book. The Grant-Rosecrans divide is real and started during the War. It was bitter. History isn't a public relations campaign. Grant had problems with other generals too.
I'm not alone in noting the Grant-Rosecrans divide. Check out Evan Jones' essay in Gateway to the Confederacy.
 
You might get a fuller picture if you read my book. The Grant-Rosecrans divide is real and started during the War. It was bitter. History isn't a public relations campaign. Grant had problems with other generals too.
I'm not alone in noting the Grant-Rosecrans divide. Check out Evan Jones' essay in Gateway to the Confederacy.
Your standard response. "If you disagree with me its becuase you are ignorant you need to buy my book".

And I never said the Grant Rosecrans divide didnt exist. Don't put words in my mouth. Of course it did. I said I respect both. You told me I had to choose sides, which is just silly.
 
Some time ago the anti Grant and pro Thomas-Rosecrans arguments on this board made me reevaluate my opinions on these matters and ironically made me think less of Thomas rather than more. And I had a higher opinion of him than of anyone, now I think him inferior not only to Grant but also to Sherman, Meade, Sheridan and Ord.
Ord? While he does fine in 1865, his record before that largely consists of repeatedly getting shot, and going AWOL from his command in the Valley before the 1864 campaign and getting away with it because he was friendly with Grant.

I do think Meade's performance when taking over three days before Gettysburg contrasts favorably with Thomas' refusal to take command from Buell before Perryville.
 
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Your standard response. "If you disagree with me its becuase you are ignorant you need to buy my book".

And I never said the Grant Rosecrans divide didnt exist. Don't put words in my mouth. Of course it did. I said I respect both. You told me I had to choose sides, which is just silly.
Fuller picture and ignorant don't mean the same thing. I haven't told anyone to buy my book but to read it and then only if they're going to criticize what they think I believe on this topic. Let's leave it at that.
 
Sources? You might want to look over the Washburne Papers which are on line. I cite things relevant to Washburne in my book that I've not seen anywhere else. If you're going to criticize my work you should at the very least read my book. Then you can rip it to shreds on this site - with or without documentation. It almost seems that your main concern is to disuade people from reading my book by panning it even though you've never read it.
Washburne and his brother lost faith in Grant during the Vicksburg attempts, and then conveniently became supporters again.

"At one point before the capture of Vicksburg on July 4, 1863 even Washburne had wavered on Grant. President Lincoln told Ward Hill Lamon that 'even Washburne, who has always claimed Grant as his by right of discovery, had deserted him and demands his removal."

I haven't said anything about your book. I'm addressing the comments you're making in this thread.
 
I know what Simpson has written. I know there were concerns about Grant's political ambitions. But you claimed that Lincoln nominated Grant "to keep him from challenging Lincoln."

I've never seen that remarkable claim before and I'd like to see any evidence that backs it up. Lincoln may have wondered about Grant's ambitions but he didn't nominate Grant for Lt General specifically to keep him from entering politics. That is insulting to both Lincoln and Grant.

Lincoln's reason for promoting Grant was that he wanted to win the war.
 

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