Raymond

[tony_gunter]

I recall reading one author, don't remember who, asserted that a Confederate depot was at Raymond and that was one of the tasks McPherson was ordered to accomplish on 5/12. But I think that author was inferring too much from Grant's order to vacuum up the supplies "there and in the vicinity" (or words to that effect). Otherwise, I've seen no other reference to a depot in Raymond. So if you have one that would explain much of it.

I've never seen any evidence that Pemberton had a supply depot established at Raymond. The OR lists rations shipped to depots nearby (corn at Bolton, corn and bacon at Edwards) And Pemberton's belated realization that Raymond was a critical defensive position belies any such foresight. Remember, Gregg's brigade wasn't the first brigade of reinforcements to arrive from elsewhere.

As Tony pointed out Pemberton ordered Gregg, while at Osyka, to bring his wagons, but the next day Gardner stated he couldn't move until the wagons returned. Its not a fact, but a strong inference, that Gardner was referring to the wagons used to move Gregg from PH to Osyka. Is that how you would interpret it?

W Adams did go offline a few days after his Port Gibson dash. He next appeared as the recipient of a telegram from Pemberton that places him in Jackson. It seems logical to presume he went there for refit/remount after two weeks of sustained operations. It had always been my presumption that Adams had been in the field without a break until I finally realized the telegrams were addressed to Jackson.

Do you think Adams was in Jackson when he received his movement order from Pemberton?

It's hard to place Adams riding all the way to Jackson to refit on the timeline. Pemberton sent word for Adams and Richardson to move to Raymond on May 3rd.

If I recall correctly, Wright began operating south of Port Gibson against Wirt Adams on May 6th in reprisal for Adams' capture of a hospital train, and the two forces skirmished for two days. Before hearing from Adams, Pemberton sends additional contradictory orders:

If I remember the timeline correctly, Wright skirmished with Adams on the 6th and fell back to Port Gibson. Then they skirmished in Port Gibson on the 7th. Then Wright detected that Adams was attempting to move north to cut him off and repositioned, leaving Port Gibson to be occupied by the enemy (unspecified) on the 8th. We don't know which if any of these messages Adams received, but if Adams is in Jackson on the 10th, that's only a two or three-day window to ride to Jackson by an indirect route (~70 miles) and refit, and it doesn't satisfy any of the orders issued.

 

[Mississippian1861]

Well we know Adams was at Edwards Depot on the evening of the 11th with his ad hoc brigade, consisting of his own regiment, a battalion of the 20th Mississippi Mounted Infantry, and two companies (A & E) of the 2nd Mississippi Cavalry (aka 4th MS Cav).

 

[alan polk]

Otherwise, I've seen no other reference to a depot in Raymond. So if you have one that would explain much of it.

Pemberton makes direct mention of Raymond's depot in one of his May 10 messages to W. Adams.

Pemberton had ordered three days rations carried, implying he needed a unit with combat power that could sustain itself in the field for some time (3-4 days) and he had a right to know that his order had been complied with (or not). If he had discovered Gregg had no rations and only one days ordnance, would he have kept Gregg in Raymond?

I get that. I'm just wondering if it would matter to your analysis whether the issue of Gregg's movement without rations was resolved by the availability of Walker or presence of a depot in Raymond. We are forced to make assumptions in order to suss out the truth in some of this. It's the nature of the game. But sometimes we get caught up in weighing in on certain assumptions while ignoring others, especially if we already have a conclusion in mind that needs reaching. I'm just trying to help tighten up the reasoning process here, for I too am interested in this question that you have brought to the table. You have a great eye for spotting these things and it is refreshing. And, of course, I'm being fruitfully lazy, I guess, drawing largely off memory and just commenting here and there from the peanut gallery—which is easy to do. I do look forward to reading whatever you put together about all this. Your doing a great job!

Possibly the cavalry Russell referred to as Adam's was in fact Richardson's.

What's your thoughts?

I just "assumed" that Russell had intermingled with them in order to gather whatever information they had and thus learned from them directly that they were part of W. Adams. But my assumption could be wrong. They may have well been Richardson's men. Is it possible that Richardson had already been absorbed into W. Adam's command? Can't recall how the chain of command went at this time.

You said: "Russells dispatch is a bit ambiguous, but he doesn't expressly say he saw 300 of W Adam's
cavalry."

This is not my recollection. I'll have to find the message to make sure. But I recall him being very specific.

As far as whether W. Adams was at Jackson— if I recall correctly, the critical messages from Pemberton to Wirt about supporting Gregg did not specify that Wirt was at Jackson. I'm not so sure now that Pemberton knew where Wirt was even on the 10th when he sent it. Maybe it was a duplicate message sent to several telegraph offices and by multiple couriers to different locations? Maybe the Jackson message is the only one to have made it in the official records? Again, I don't have the messages in front of me, but Wirt's being in Jackson had nothing to do with the success of the plan. He could have received it at, say, New Auburn and still been able to carry it out. As @Mississippian1861 said above, it appears he was in Edwards on the night of 11th. Just a thought.

 

[tony_gunter]

Pemberton makes direct mention of Raymond's depot in one of his May 10 message to W. Adams.

To be fair, he his order specifies Raymond Depot, not the Raymond depot.

And as of May 11th, there's no record of any supplies at Raymond.

 

[JohnG0609]

To be fair, he his order specifies Raymond Depot, not the Raymond depot.

And as of May 11th, there's no record of any supplies at Raymond.

Yes! I had always just presumed that it was a mistake by Pemberton meant Edward's Depot and not "Raymond's Depot." and not an actual depot as you correctly pointed out

 

[JohnG0609]

er

his ad hoc brigade,

The units you list were Richardson's ad hoc battalion. But I don't know if they were absorbed by Adams. It seemed as Richardson and his battalion just disappeared after 05.09. Were they in fact absorbed by Adams?

 

[Mississippian1861]

A Body of Wild Riders: The 20th Mississippi Infantry (Mounted)

If you asked most Civil War enthusiast’s what happened in Central Mississippi on May 12, 1863, they would answer without hesitating, “The Battle of Raymond.” They would, of course…

mississippiconfederates.wordpress.com

They were, according to this letter from a member of the 20th Mississippi that was published a few weeks after Raymond.

 

[JohnG0609]

It's hard to place Adams riding all the way to Jackson to refit on the timeline.

It is indeed. After returning from his pursuit of Grierson, Adams reported in from Fayette that he was going to sortie toward PG on the 6th and then return back to a location between PG and the railroad. I suppose it is possible that he moved all the way to the railroad and was transported up to Jackson vice riding? We don't have him pinned in Jackson, nor do we have him pinned in Auburn/Utica area either. IIRC, he gathered only six companies for his attack on Grierson at Union Church, so that does leave a battalion size 4 company element somewhere. I don't think all ten companies of the regiment operated together.

 

[JohnG0609]

A Body of Wild Riders: The 20th Mississippi Infantry (Mounted)

If you asked most Civil War enthusiast’s what happened in Central Mississippi on May 12, 1863, they would answer without hesitating, “The Battle of Raymond.” They would, of course…

mississippiconfederates.wordpress.com

They were, according to this letter from a member of the 20th Mississippi that was published a few weeks after Raymond.

Thank you! Definitely adds some context to the story

 

[JohnG0609]

I'm just wondering if it would matter to your analysis

Absolutely, it would alibi Gregg for moving without the rations.

Russell had intermingled with them

Russell was from Raymond and I think he was doing his own thing for Loring. He is the officer that circuited the enemy and reported to Bowen at Edwards. Loring upchanneled that info as having come via Bowen.

the critical messages from Pemberton to Wirt about supporting Gregg did not specify that Wirt was at Jackson.

Agreed. I just found it curious they were addressed to Jackson if Adams were in the field. Still, I've not seen direct evidence that he wasn't in Jackson, nor have I seen direct evidence that he was. I think Tony agreed that there is a gap in the Adams timeline that indicates he could have been in Jackson but far from slapping the table on it. You're right, it may not be knowable at this point, but that could just as well mean its because no one looked at it. What we don't know or can't prove we must assume. Gather the best available information and make an informed guess. That's what keeps us coming back! Always more questions.

 

[JohnG0609]

This is not my recollection. I'll have to find the message to make sure. But I recall him being very specific.

Here is the dispatch, which as you know, are attached to a dispatch from McClernand as Russell's manservant, Ranse, rode straight to freedom with the dispatches.
Russell's words:

Interestingly, he says "300 of Wirt Adams' cavalry" without really saying if Adams was present in command. Or they may not have been Adams' cavalry at all, possibly Russell is reporting Richardson's battalion. That's what drove the ambiguity statement by me.

 

[JohnG0609]

A Body of Wild Riders: The 20th Mississippi Infantry (Mounted)

If you asked most Civil War enthusiast’s what happened in Central Mississippi on May 12, 1863, they would answer without hesitating, “The Battle of Raymond.” They would, of course…

mississippiconfederates.wordpress.com

They were, according to this letter from a member of the 20th Mississippi that was published a few weeks after Raymond.

Do you have any visibility on all ten companies of Adams? I think he gathered up 6 for the Grierson pursuit and I don't know that that changed. That leaves 4 companies somewhere, doing something.

 

[JohnG0609]

Col. R.V. Richardson at Jackson, notified Gen. Pemberton that Wirt had, on Wed., the 6th, been at Port Gibson, and the next day skirmished at Burtonton,

I failed to acknowledge this very good point you made. That after Adam's sortie into PG he had another skirmish the next day (05.07) at Burtonton. That puts him within about 25 miles of both Hazlehurst and/or Crystal Springs. I think that could be interpreted as supporting the assertion that he went to Jackson with his command, possibly by railroad. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[Mississippian1861]

Do you have any visibility on all ten companies of Adams? I think he gathered up 6 for the Grierson pursuit and I don't know that that changed. That leaves 4 companies somewhere, doing something.

I have Adams having seven companies in total for his fight with Grierson, with five from his own regiment (E, F, H, I, & K) along with two independent companies, one from Hinds County and another from Natchez.

 

[JohnG0609]

with five from his own

Hmmm that's really interesting.
Mind showing your work?

Any idea about the other 4 or 5 companies?

 

[RedRover]

Wirt at Port Gibson on May 6, at Burtonton on May 7.

From Gen. James Wilson's journal, among the US forces in the region north of Jackson in early May:

p. 95, here:

Journal

www.google.com

Wirt reports that he had been at Raymond, left there for Edward's by Bowen's order, and arrived there on the 11th.

So Wirt was at Port Gibson on the 6th, Burtonton on the 7th... subsequently about Raymond, left there and arrived at Edwards on the 11th. CS cavalry pickets in the area per Wilson's notices besides...

 

[JohnG0609]

Wirt at Port Gibson on May 6, at Burtonton on May 7.

From Gen. James Wilson's journal, among the US forces in the region north of Jackson in early May:

View attachment 557552
p. 95, here:

Journal

www.google.com

Wirt reports that he had been at Raymond, left there for Edward's by Bowen's order, and arrived there on the 11th.

View attachment 557553

So Wirt was at Port Gibson on the 6th, Burtonton on the 7th... subsequently about Raymond, left there and arrived at Edwards on the 11th. CS cavalry pickets in the area per Wilson's notices besides...

View attachment 557554

Thanks! So just to sync up with you— we lose track of Adams after the Burtonton skirmish on 05.07 until telegrams are addressed to Adams at Jackson on 05.10. Is that how you see it?

 

[Mississippian1861]

Hmmm that's really interesting.
Mind showing your work?

Any idea about the other 4 or 5 companies?

At this point of the war Adams only has nine of the original twelve companies of his regiment, A, C, & D have transferred out. I miss counted on my earlier post. Adams was able to get six companies together (E, F, H, I, K, & M) he started out with E & M, with the mountain howitzers, then joined by F, H, & I Companies, and finally K, along with the two independent companies. As for the other three companies: Companies B & L were picketing in the Delta near Greenville and didn't rejoin the regiment until June. Company G reported to General Stevenson and picketed the area around Hankinson's Ferry on the Big Black, and had a skirmish with the Federals on May 9th at "Owen's", four miles from the ferry.

 

[RedRover]

Thanks! So just to sync up with you— we lose track of Adams after the Burtonton skirmish on 05.07 until telegrams are addressed to Adams at Jackson on 05.10. Is that how you see it?

Don't see absolute confirmation he was physically at Jackson after the skirmish at Burtonton. But that's where Pemberton sent his orders on the 10th. Richardson then noted to P. of Wirt's recent whereabouts a few days before. I think it is notable that Richardson has to send notice to P. about this, presume it is notice Wirt wasn't at Jackson. Perhaps he was riding his picket lines north of Raymond or at Raymond. Wirt left Raymond for Edwards, per orders via Bowen, and arrived at the latter point on the 11th.

 

[RedRover]

Double post.