Raymond

[JohnG0609]

While doing some analysis I found two things that interest me:

1. Late on 05.10.63 Pemberton ordered Gregg to Raymond. The order was to move, "promptly to Raymond, taking three days' rations, and carrying only cooking utensils and ammunition." Per Gregg's report the order was received, "while in camp 2 miles east of Jackson, Miss, at 3.a.m. on the 11th." He stated further, "by 5 o'clock the entire brigade was on the march." That certainly makes it problematic to have issued 3 days of rations in 2 hours, prior to the movement. Why the rush on Gregg's part? The order was for "promptly.. taking three days' rations...", so why did Gregg deviate from his orders? WJ Davidson diary validates that they moved within 2 hours and without rations.

2. On 05.10.63 Pemberton issued two orders to Wirt Adams, both addressed to Jackson. I have always presupposed, and I don't think I'm alone, that Adams was in the field. So why address an order to him to Jackson? It seems entirely plausible that Adams may have had to take his unit to Jackson to re-fit and re-mount.

Curious to what you guys think?

 

[lelliott19]

I am not an expert on Vicksburg or the lead up. But you may find some information in this fairly recent series of threads from around the same time period of these telegrams. I'm not sure why the participants split this topic up into multiple threads.

Move to Dillon's | Siege of Vicksburg

I've not seen much commentary on the decision to move on Dillon's on May 15. Pemberton says in his report that the "object is to cut the enemy's communications and to force him to attack me." Which drove the next question in my mind, "...and then what?" Pemberton provided more context in...

civilwartalk.com

Move to Dillon's cont'd | Siege of Vicksburg

This is a continuation of the post I made last week regarding the Confederate move to Dillon's Plantation. We had a lot of great conversation around that. I know I learned a lot. So if you are just walking into this movie check out episode 1 post below. The 05.14.63 Council of War is...

civilwartalk.com

Move to Dillon's, Part 3 | Siege of Vicksburg

I think it's generally accepted that the Confederate move to Ellison's was in furtherance of a move to the "Turkey Creek Road," so named by Grabau, Lockett only refers to it as the road "To Dillon's" on his map. On 14 May, Pemberton issued Special Orders, No.____ ordering the forward movement...

civilwartalk.com

@alan polk do yall want these three threads merged?

 

[JohnG0609]

I am not an expert on Vicksburg or the lead up. But you may find some information in this fairly recent series of threads from around the same time period of these telegrams. I'm not sure why the participants split this topic up into multiple threads.

Move to Dillon's | Siege of Vicksburg

I've not seen much commentary on the decision to move on Dillon's on May 15. Pemberton says in his report that the "object is to cut the enemy's communications and to force him to attack me." Which drove the next question in my mind, "...and then what?" Pemberton provided more context in...

civilwartalk.com

Move to Dillon's cont'd | Siege of Vicksburg

This is a continuation of the post I made last week regarding the Confederate move to Dillon's Plantation. We had a lot of great conversation around that. I know I learned a lot. So if you are just walking into this movie check out episode 1 post below. The 05.14.63 Council of War is...

civilwartalk.com

Move to Dillon's, Part 3 | Siege of Vicksburg

I think it's generally accepted that the Confederate move to Ellison's was in furtherance of a move to the "Turkey Creek Road," so named by Grabau, Lockett only refers to it as the road "To Dillon's" on his map. On 14 May, Pemberton issued Special Orders, No.____ ordering the forward movement...

civilwartalk.com

@alan polk do yall want these three threads merged?

Well I suppose I will consider myself flattered as the author of those threads is yours truly.

 

[lelliott19]

Well I suppose I will consider myself flattered as the author of those threads is yours truly.

Awesome! Thanks for your valuable contributions. Do you want the three threads merged into one?

 

[JohnG0609]

Awesome! Thanks for your valuable contributions. Do you want the three threads merged into one?

I mean I'm fine with it. I'll leave it to you. Im relatively new to CWT so if you think the threads have value I'm absolutely fine with it. Whatever you think adds to the understanding is what I think. Whatever gets us closer to a better understanding is always my goal.

 

[lelliott19]

I mean I'm fine with it. I'll leave it to you. Im relatively new to CWT so if you think the threads have value I'm absolutely fine with it. Whatever you think adds to the understanding is what I think. Whatever gets us closer to a better understanding is always my goal.

Ok. I went ahead and merged all three under the original "Move to Dillon's" thread. The subsequent replies will show in that thread in the correct order by timestamp. In other words, they will appear in the same order they were posted in the separate threads.

 

[JohnG0609]

Ok. I went ahead and merged all three under the original "Move to Dillon's" thread. The subsequent replies will show in that thread in the correct order by timestamp. In other words, they will appear in the same order they were posted in the separate threads.

Thank you! I'm flattered that you think I'm worthy of merging! I sent you a private message.

 

[RedRover]

While doing some analysis I found two things that interest me:

1. Late on 05.10.63 Pemberton ordered Gregg to Raymond. The order was to move, "promptly to Raymond, taking three days' rations, and carrying only cooking utensils and ammunition." Per Gregg's report the order was received, "while in camp 2 miles east of Jackson, Miss, at 3.a.m. on the 11th." He stated further, "by 5 o'clock the entire brigade was on the march." That certainly makes it problematic to have issued 3 days of rations in 2 hours, prior to the movement. Why the rush on Gregg's part? The order was for "promptly.. taking three days' rations...", so why did Gregg deviate from his orders? WJ Davidson diary validates that they moved within 2 hours and without rations.

While the men were not provided with cooked rations in preparation for the march, as Davidson observes, I would not presume that Gregg disobeyed the orders for the three days' rations. Note that Gregg was ordered to carry "cooking utensils" which demonstrates the rations carried need not have been distributed, cooked, and provided to each man before the march. If the intent of Pemberton was to delay moving long enough to issue the rations to companies and messes, and for it to be cooked and packed in the men's haversacks before the march, there would have been no point in specifically directing Gregg to carry along "cooking utensils." Evidently rations carried along were yet in the baggage, and the men had to cook it during the march, when or if available or possible.

Note, they marched without "cooked" rations.

The men were exhausted, and cutting wood, making fires, and cooking was probably right out. Lots of veterans noted sleeping through their hunger rather than spending time to cook food after a day's marching...

2. On 05.10.63 Pemberton issued two orders to Wirt Adams, both addressed to Jackson. I have always presupposed, and I don't think I'm alone, that Adams was in the field. So why address an order to him to Jackson? It seems entirely plausible that Adams may have had to take his unit to Jackson to re-fit and re-mount.

Curious to what you guys think?

The telegrams to Wirt from Gen. Pemberton on the 10th, same time as to Gregg above, instructs him to take the field personally.

If he was already out of Jackson, and in the field with them, then no harm no foul.

And indeed on that very day, Col. R.V. Richardson at Jackson, notified Gen. Pemberton that Wirt had, on Wed., the 6th, been at Port Gibson, and the next day skirmished at Burtonton, etc. The next day Gen. Pemberton sent another order to Wirt at Jackson, OR, whoever the commanding officer was there, if Wirt was in fact already in the field...

Same order for Gist, take cooking utensils, viz. don't wait to prepare rations. Just get moving.

 

[tony_gunter]

While doing some analysis I found two things that interest me:

1. Late on 05.10.63 Pemberton ordered Gregg to Raymond. The order was to move, "promptly to Raymond, taking three days' rations, and carrying only cooking utensils and ammunition." Per Gregg's report the order was received, "while in camp 2 miles east of Jackson, Miss, at 3.a.m. on the 11th." He stated further, "by 5 o'clock the entire brigade was on the march." That certainly makes it problematic to have issued 3 days of rations in 2 hours, prior to the movement. Why the rush on Gregg's part? The order was for "promptly.. taking three days' rations...", so why did Gregg deviate from his orders? WJ Davidson diary validates that they moved within 2 hours and without rations.

2. On 05.10.63 Pemberton issued two orders to Wirt Adams, both addressed to Jackson. I have always presupposed, and I don't think I'm alone, that Adams was in the field. So why address an order to him to Jackson? It seems entirely plausible that Adams may have had to take his unit to Jackson to re-fit and re-mount.

Curious to what you guys think?

Good questions. I've never found a detailed record of what Wirt Adams was doing after leaving the Port Gibson area. He was active in opposing Clark Wright from May 6th to possibly the 8th, then Jackson on the 10th (?), then ends up in Raymond on the 11th?

It seems like he would need to refit at some point and Jackson would be the place to do that, but I've never seen a record of how, when, or why he proceeded to Jackson.

With regard to rations, Gregg was explicitly instructed to bring his wagons with him to carry his men across the gap in the railroad at Brookhaven. Maybe he had rations in the wagons already and thought getting some distance before the sun rose would be wise given the insufferable heat and dust?

 

[JohnG0609]

I would not presume that Gregg disobeyed the orders for the three days' rations.

"Deviated," not "disobeyed".

demonstrates the rations carried need not have been distributed, cooked, and provided to each man before the march.

I agree, I don't think I made the assertion that rations ought "to have been distributed, cooked, and provided to each man before the march. I had meant to assert that underway within two hours of order receipt would not allow for just that, distribution, cooking, and eating.

Evidently rations carried along were yet in the baggage

Except that the order specified "without baggage."

To reframe the assertion:
Gregg was ordered to Raymond and was to take three day's rations. I don't see any evidence that he complied with that part of his order. That's the deviation I'm curious to know about. If he was ordered to take three day's rations and he didn't take three day's rations I'm interested in knowing why.

@tony_gunter
In reply to your response:
"With regard to rations, Gregg was explicitly instructed to bring his wagons with him to carry his men across the gap in the railroad at Brookhaven. Maybe he had rations in the wagons already and thought getting some distance before the sun rose would be wise given the insufferable heat and dust?"

I sort of intentionally didn't get into the question of Gregg's transportation, because I had some open questions in my mind. And I wanted to get y'all's views.

Tell me what you think of this:

You are correct, On 05.06.63 Pemberton ordered Gregg to bring his wagons up the railroad in order to facilitate crossing the break in the RR:

Except that Gardner, on 05.05.63 telegraphed Pemberton stating he would move as soon as wagons return:

Obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the wagons that transported Gregg's baggage to Osyka, but I think it's a reasonable inference.

It seems probable to me that Pemberton issued his order and assumed it would be complied with. Next he simply issued Gregg the order to move to Raymond with three day's rations under the assumption that Gregg had wagons. Which I believe it shows pretty clearly that he did not. Based mostly on the fact that no wagon train was mentioned in any contemporaneous correspondence or in any report.

I'm of the opinion that this represents a personality flaw in Pemberton's leadership style. He issues orders like a "fire and forget" weapon. He ordered it, he presumed it would be done, and he never follows up to validate compliance or alibi deviation. I know of two more times this defect in his command style presented itself.

I know ground transportation was a chronic problem for the DMEL QM, I think it would be a fascinating and enlightening subject for research. I suppose that would have to be done at the NA.

Let me know what you guys think!

 

[JohnG0609]

It seems like he would need to refit at some point and Jackson would be the place to do that, but I've never seen a record of how, when, or why he proceeded to Jackson.

Yeah, it certainly seems reasonable to assume that he went to Jackson for refit, either alone, or with his unit (some or all). I've not seen any record or recollection that Adams did so, but you and Alan are the pros from Dover on these type questions.

 

[JohnG0609]

Pemberton sent another order to Wirt at Jackson, OR, whoever the commanding officer was there, if Wirt was in fact already in the field...

That order was to BG John Adams, not Col Wirt Adams.

But it is interesting he adressed to BG Adams, "or commanding officer." I can only infer that if whomever was arrriving commanding reinforcements might well supersede Adams

 

[danny]

Beat me too it!

 

[JohnG0609]

Beat me too it!

Lol. Gotta be quicker!

Any thoughts on why Gregg would deviate from his orders?

You think it possible that W Adams w/ his command had gone to Jackson for refit/remount?

As @tony_gunter rightly pointed out, Adams did go silent for about 48 hours. 05.08-05.10 I think. I haven't validated that or mapped his movements. I was hoping Tony had already done that for me!

 

[alan polk]

Gregg was ordered to Raymond and was to take three day's rations. I don't see any evidence that he complied with that part of his order. That's the deviation I'm curious to know about. If he was ordered to take three day's rations and he didn't take three day's rations I'm interested in knowing why.

I'm not near my references and I can't recall timelines, but is it possible that Walker's men were expected to bring the wagons and rations with them?

 

[JohnG0609]

but is it possible that Walker's men were expected to bring the wagons and rations with them?

Idk. I haven't seen a source. But I'm also fine with saying Gregg moved without 3 days rations, contrary to his orders.

 

[JohnG0609]

As @tony_gunter rightly pointed out, Adams did go silent for about 48 hours. 05.08-05.10

@tony_gunter do you think Adams went to Jackson for re-fit?

 

[alan polk]

Idk. I haven't seen a source. But I'm also fine with saying Gregg moved without 3 days rations, contrary to his orders.

I think it is a fair assumption. I know you are trying to tie all this to a potential "personality flaw in Pemberton's leadership style." I am just wondering if Gregg's decision not to move with three day rations might be related to the availability of Walker who could follow up with the rations and wagons, thus allowing Gregg to hasten his movement to Raymond. And if so, if this, in your opinion, would also be relate to Pemberton's personality flaw.

Also, it appears Pemberton had already established a "depot" at Raymond. Not sure what kind. But is it possible that supplies were already at Raymond which in turn made Gregg feel as if he could move without rations?

You think it possible that W Adams w/ his command had gone to Jackson for refit/remount?

On May 10, Captain Russel reported that about 300 of W. Adam's cavalry were located near (Roach's?). Thus, I suspect Adam's was in Jackson but not with most of his command.

 

[JohnG0609]

appears Pemberton had already established a "depot" at Raymond.

I recall reading one author, don't remember who, asserted that a Confederate depot was at Raymond and that was one of the tasks McPherson was ordered to accomplish on 5/12. But I think that author was inferring too much from Grant's order to vacuum up the supplies "there and in the vicinity" (or words to that effect). Otherwise, I've seen no other reference to a depot in Raymond. So if you have one that would explain much of it.

As Tony pointed out Pemberton ordered Gregg, while at Osyka, to bring his wagons, but the next day Gardner stated he couldn't move until the wagons returned. Its not a fact, but a strong inference, that Gardner was referring to the wagons used to move Gregg from PH to Osyka. Is that how you would interpret it?

W Adams did go offline a few days after his Port Gibson dash. He next appeared as the recipient of a telegram from Pemberton that places him in Jackson. It seems logical to presume he went there for refit/remount after two weeks of sustained operations. It had always been my presumption that Adams had been in the field without a break until I finally realized the telegrams were addressed to Jackson.

Do you think Adams was in Jackson when he received his movement order from Pemberton?

I know you are trying to tie all this to a potential "personality flaw in Pemberton's leadership style.

I can admit that. Although I feel like I'm more trying to determine how separate but contemporaneous events relate together in the overall operations, not tie together sets of facts that may or may not be related

This particular episode seemed perfect for a root cause analysis. My short time as staff officer placed me on the staff of the general that controlled most of the air force combat formations (fighter squadrons) This allowed me to be privy in the most superficial way (I was in the room) listening to the results of aircraft accidents investigations. Learned a lot about the investigators approach to accident investigations. In this case the "accident" is Gregg was ordered to move with three days rations. He did not move with three day rations. That constitutes a deviation from his order. Just want to know why.

Its also proper to ask why I think this is important. Pre-supposing that Pemberton's "plan" Warning order for Gregg to attack the flank and rear was actually ordered and Gregg went into action. Pemberton had ordered three days rations carried, implying he needed a unit with combat power that could sustain itself in the field for some time (3-4 days) and he had a right to know that his order had been complied with (or not). If he had discovered Gregg had no rations and only one days ordnance, would he have kept Gregg in Raymond?


I absolutely believe Pemberton lacked a laundry list of core competencies, most of which center around his lack of technical competence, the blocking and tackling, of army command. The rest center around his individual character flaws (we all have them) and when they manifested during this campaign. Pemberton issue: 80% lack of technical competence, 20% personality traits.

 

[JohnG0609]

On May 10, Captain Russel reported that about 300 of W. Adam's cavalry were located near (Roach's?). Thus, I suspect Adam's was in Jackson but not with most of his command.

I'm glad you brought this up, I was just then looking at it when your reply posted. Because it does have Russell identifying a unit of 300 as Adams on 05/10. And that would throw a wrench into the assertion that Adams went to Jackson.

Recognizing this is pretty subjective on my part but do you think what Russell was calling Adams cavalry was in fact the ad hoc battalion of Richardson?
1. Russell was an infantry co commander so I think it unlikely he knew Wirt Adams on sight.
2. Richardson had returned from pursuing Grierson and had already reported in at Edward's Depot.
3. I don't know that Richardson is actually accounted for, but it seems plausible that he would have his battalion in this area.
4. I think Richardson's strength was about 300
5. Russells dispatch is a bit ambiguous, but he doesn't expressly say he saw 300 of W Adam's
cavalry.
6. Perhaps Russell knew there was a Confederate Colonel operating in the area and just assumed it was Adams

BLUF: Possibly the cavalry Russell referred to as Adam's was in fact Richardson's.

What's your thoughts?