Lost Triumph

[Historicaly Correct]

The book "LOST TRIUMPH Lee's real plan at Gettysburg and why it failed" was something new for me. It gave a look at the teaching that Lee had from West Point and his early career. I was wondering if any of you great minds had read it also and could get your opinion on the book? I thought it was a excellent book.
HC

 

[whitworth]

Absolutely horrible book

The author has no knowledge of horses. And only with the use of horses, did a Civil War army move. The author completely ignores the condition of the horses and Stuart's advance to Pennsylvania.

By July 3, Stuart had run his horses and men into the ground, by their late move from Virginia to Pennsylvania. By July 3, Stuart was unprepared for a long hard fight.

Lee said he asked too much of his men. In the case of his cavalry, he indeed did.

I recommend highly General JEB Stuart's OR report on Gettysburg to give a glimpse as to why plans sometimes go bad. And why Stuart had run his horses into the ground, making his cavalry much less effective for battle at Gettysburg.

 

[ole]

The horse is an incredibly stupid and vulnerable beast. If you can wear out a man, you can feed him and tomorrow he will get up and march. The horse? Nope. When you break that line, that's it.

Dear One is home now.

No time to say hello, goodbye.

Ole

 

[whitworth]

Confederate Loss of Horses -Pennsylvania Campaign

Some previous notes I have on Confederate Horses at Gettysburg.

Jeffry Wert, 'Gettysburg Day Three', had some footnotes and indications from a few Stuart troopers, who told of the poor condition of the troopers and the horses, by the time of Gettysburg.
The Confederate Cavalry was not now at its peak, and a few of Custer's regiments at Gettysburg had Spencer rifles. Cavalry from Jenkin's Confederate brigade reported only had ten rounds apiece.

***
My written notes:

Stuart's horses were worn out and Jenkins' cavalry was almost out of ammunition.[July 3]
Stuart started his trip north on June 25 and got delayed by Hancock's Corps.
Stuart had to cross the Potomac in high water. Stuart was on the move over six days. His riders were tired and the horses were pushed. Few recall that Stuart was headed to York, then to Carlisle, after a skirmish in Hanover. Then a quick trip to Gettysburg, and a fight on the 3rd of July.

Too much for a commander to ask of his cavalrymen and the horses.

***

IN PENNSYLVANIA


"After all, we gained very little by our horse stealing. The impressed animals were, for the most part, great clumsy, flabby Percherons or Conestogas, which required more than twice the feed our compact, hard-muscled little Virginia horses required, and yet could not do half the work they did, nor stand half the hardship and exposure. It was pitiable, later, to, see these great brutes suffer when, compelled to dash off at full gallop with a gun, after pasturing on dry broom sedge and eating a quarter of a feed of weevil-eaten corn. They seemed to pine for the slow draft and full feed of their Pennsylvania homes."
ROBERT STILES
Major of Artillery in the Army of Northern Virginia

***


HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA,
Culpeper Court-House, July 24, 1863.
Mr. PRESIDENT:


"We are in great need of horseshoes, having been able to procure
none on our expedition, and our constant motion preventing their
manufacture from iron that fell into our possession, more than half
the cavalry is dismounted, and the artillery horses and wagon teams
have suffered equally..."


Manassas Gap.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
R. E. LEE,
General,

 

[Stonewall1982]

I read this book last summer and enjoyed it. I do not know if I believe everything that he states, but he did bring up some good points. What was Stuart doing behind the Federal lines on day 3? Also, if the author is wrong, why did Lee only send a small portion of his army in Pickett's Charge? Yes, Longstreet was supposed to charge also but didn't do as Lee had wanted him to do.

 

[The Iron Duke]

Yes, Longstreet was supposed to charge also but didn't do as Lee had wanted him to do.

What do you mean?

 

[Stonewall1982]

From what I understand Lee had ordered him to advance but Longstreet did not want to do that and did not start the charge until that afternoon. I may have read it wrong also. I am not perfect, could have misunderstood.

 

[Stonewall1982]

Of course Pickett commanded a division in Longstreet's Corps, so that did happen as Lee wanted. I think I am confusing different things from the battle with the stigma of blame that Longstreet carried from many Confederates. My apologies.

 

[prroh]

The book "LOST TRIUMPH Lee's real plan at Gettysburg and why it failed" was something new for me. It gave a look at the teaching that Lee had from West Point and his early career. I was wondering if any of you great minds had read it also and could get your opinion on the book? I thought it was a excellent book.
HC

It was a joke. The secret of the real plan was buried to protect Stuart's reputation and Lee was too smart to have ordered Pickett's charge. Buy a bottle of Jack Daniels with the money this book costs and you have made an much better investment. P.U. is a kind review.

 

[K Hale]

What was Stuart doing behind the Federal lines on day 3?

Getting in position to exploit a rout and pursue a beaten enemy, which is the cavalry's job.

 

[Stonewall1982]

I would agree with your comment about pursing a beaten enemy. In the "Lost Triumph" book, the author makes the comment that Stuart fired 4 cannon shots to notify Lee that he was in position, or would be within a short time. Shortly after this was the battle with Custer's cavalry. Why would he do this? I know what the author opinion was, but what of you all? Wouldn't Stuart be afriad of letting his postition be compromised, thus spoiling the ambush effect? Of course after he fired he shots he was discovered. I hope I am making sense in my question, if not I applogize for not being to able articulate this well enough.

 

[K Hale]

I would agree with your comment about pursing a beaten enemy. In the "Lost Triumph" book, the author makes the comment that Stuart fired 4 cannon shots to notify Lee that he was in position, or would be within a short time. Shortly after this was the battle with Custer's cavalry. Why would he do this? I know what the author opinion was, but what of you all? Wouldn't Stuart be afriad of letting his postition be compromised, thus spoiling the ambush effect? Of course after he fired he shots he was discovered. I hope I am making sense in my question, if not I applogize for not being to able articulate this well enough.

He wasn't trying to ambush anyone, he was trying to find out where Gregg's cavalry was. The four cannon shots were "feelers" whose purpose was to draw a response from the enemy.

There actually was a thread on this subject recently, so let me just link it here, because it has some good stuff in it:
http://civilwartalk.com/forums/civi...lery-shot-s-per-stuart-maj-h-b-mcclellan.html

 

[Stonewall1982]

Thanks K. I plead my newbieness as to not knowing that thread was there. That makes more sense.

 

[K Hale]

Actually it was longer ago than I had thought and has long since slid off the page.

 

[Stonewall1982]

In one of the posts in the thread linked above in post #12, someone mentions a good thought, that is, there was firing from artillery all during the day. How could anyone distinguish one shot from another, meaning if the intent is to be a signal, as opposed to firing at the enemy. In the book this thread discusses, one of the author's man arguments is that Stuart was signaling Lee. Kind of hard on a battlefield in the middle of an afternoon, one would think.

 

[Stonewall1982]

The cannon shots make more sense if the purpose was to find where the enemy was, smoke them out so to speak.

 

[K Hale]

In one of the posts in the thread linked above in post #12, someone mentions a good thought, that is, there was firing from artillery all during the day. How could anyone distinguish one shot from another, meaning if the intent is to be a signal, as opposed to firing at the enemy. In the book this thread discusses, one of the author's man arguments is that Stuart was signaling Lee. Kind of hard on a battlefield in the middle of an afternoon, one would think.

Yes, exactly.

 

[prroh]

Yes, exactly.

As being the someone who mentions the absurdity of the "signal" shots, I might throw in a a few more points, the timings that Carhart gives might work for one person on a horse, but not several thousand. The whole book is based on silly premises with little or no evidence. The contention that there had to be a secret plan because Lee was too smart to produce such a botched affair is simply laughable.

 

[DWMack]

I am a bit fuzzy on Stuart at Gettysburg. Did he not run into Michigan cavalry which delayed his movements/plans? Or maybe I am thinking of some other battle.


Dan

 

[K Hale]

I am a bit fuzzy on Stuart at Gettysburg. Did he not run into Michigan cavalry which delayed his movements/plans? Or maybe I am thinking of some other battle.

Yes, once he reached Ewell's left flank (and after the feeler shots) he was confronted by Gregg's cavalry at East Cavalry Field and was unable to get through them despite a huge pitched battle. Custer figured prominently in this. Had Pickett's charge been a success, Stuart would not have been able to pursue because Gregg's cavalry would still have been in the way.