★ ★ Rosecrans, William S.

William Starke "Old Rosy" Rosecrans​

Born: September 6, 1819

Birthplace: Delaware County, Ohio

Father: Crandall Rosecrans 1794 – 1848

Mother: Jemima Hopkins 1794 – 1861

Wife: Ann Eliza Hegeman 1823 – 1883

(Buried: Mount Olivet Cemetery, Washington, D.C.)​

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Married: August 24, 1843 at St. Paul's Church in New York City, New York

Children:

Rev. Adrian Louis Rosecrans 1849 – 1876​

(Buried: Saint Paul the Apostle Church Vault, Manhattan, New York)​

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Sister Mary Louise "Sister St. Charles" Rosecrans 1852 – 1878​

(Buried: Ursuline Cemetery, Saint Martin, Ohio)​

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Lily Elizabeth Rosecrans Toole 1854 – 1939​

(Buried: Resurrection Cemetery, Helena, Montana)​

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Anna Delores "Anita" Rosecrans 1857 – 1903​

(Buried: Old Saint Mary's Catholic Cemetery, Helena, Montana)​

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Carl Frederic Rosecrans 1860 – 1926​

(Buried: Calvary Cemetery, Los Angeles, California)​

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Charlotte Rosecrans 1862 - 1862​

Education:

1842: Graduated from West Point Military Academy – (5th​ in class)​

Occupation before War:

1842 – 1843: Brevet 2nd​ Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​

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1842 – 1843: Assistant Engineer for Hampton Roads Fortifications​

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1843 – 1853: 2nd​ Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​

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1843 – 1844: Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​

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1844 – 1845: Assistant Philosophy Professor at West Point​

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1845 – 1846: Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​

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1846 – 1847: Principal Assistant Engineering Professor at West Point​

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1847 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer of Repairs at Fort Adams​

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1852 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer of Surveys of Taunton River​

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1852 – 1853: Superintendent Engineer Repairs on Goat Island​

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1853 – 1854: 1st​ Lt. United States Army, Corps of Engineers​

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1853 – 1854: Superintendent Engineer, Washington Navy Yard​

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1854: Resigned from United States Army on April 1st​​

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1854 – 1855: Civil Engineer, and Architect, in Cincinnati, Ohio​

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1855 – 1857: Superintendent of Coal Company, in Coal River, Virginia​

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1856 – 1857: President of Coal River Navigation Company​

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1857 – 1861: Manufacturer of Kerosene Oil in Cincinnati, Ohio​

Civil War Career:

1861: Volunteer Aide to McClellan for Department of the Ohio​

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1861: Colonel, and Chief Engineer in the Union Army​

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1861: Colonel of 23rd​ Ohio Infantry Regiment​

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1861: Commander of Camp Chase, Ohio​

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1861 – 1867: Brigadier General in United States Army​

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1861: Brigade Commander at Battle of Rich Mountain​

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1861: Commander of the Union Army, Department of the Ohio​

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1861 – 1862: Commander of the Army Department of Western Virginia​

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1861: Successful Commander at Battle of Carnifex Ferry​

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1862 – 1866: Major General of Union Army, Volunteers​

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1862: Division Commander at the Siege of Corinth, Mississippi​

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1862: Commander of the Union Army of the Mississippi​

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1862: Successful Commander at Battle of Iuka, Mississippi​

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1862: Union Army Commander of District of Corinth, Mississippi​

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1862: Successful Commander at 2nd​ Battle of Corinth, Mississippi​

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1862 – 1863: Union Army Commander of Army of the Cumberland​

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1862 – 1863: Successful Commander at Battle of Stones River, Tennessee​

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1863: Union Army Commander Occupation of Bridgeport – Stevenson​

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1863: Union Army Commander crossing of Cumberland Mountains​

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1863: Unsuccessful Commander at Battle of Chickamuga, Georgia​

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1863: Commenced fortifying Chattanooga, Tennessee​

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1863 – 1864: Awaiting Orders in Cincinnati, Ohio​

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1864: Union Army Commander of Department of the Missouri​

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1864 – 1865: Awaiting Orders in Cincinnati, Ohio​

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1865: Brevetted Major General, U.S. Army, for Service at Stones River​

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1865 – 1867: On Leave of Absence from the United States Army​

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1866: Mustered out of the Union Army on January 15th​​

Occupation after War:

1861 – 1867: Brigadier General in United States Army​

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1865 – 1867: On Leave of Absence from the United States Army​

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1867: Resigned from United States Army on March 28th​​

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1868 – 1869: U.S. Minister to the Republic of Mexico​

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1869: Declined Democratic Nomination for Governor of Ohio​

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1869 – 1881: Civil and Mining Engineer, Railroad Enterprises in Mexico​

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1871 – 1881: President of San Jose Mining Company​

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1878 – 1881: President of Safety Powder Company in San Francisco​

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1881 – 1885: United States Congressman from California​

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1883 – 1885: House Chairman of Military Affairs Committee​

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1885 – 1893: Register for U.S. Treasury Department​

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1889: Brigadier General, U.S. Army on the retired list of officers​

Died: March 10, 1898

Place of Death: Bernardo Beach, California

Cause of Death: Pneumonia

Age at time of Death: 78 years old

Original Burial Place: Rosedale Cemetery, Los Angeles, California

Final Burial Place: Arlington National Cemetery, Arlington, Virginia

 

[uaskme]

Please stop demanding sources when you must already know they exist. You are merely wasting other people's time and effort with your refusal to acknowledge the facts. For example:

CHATTANOOGA, TENN., September 20, 1863--5 p.m.​

(Received 8.40 p.m.)​

Maj. Gen. H. W. HALLECK, ​

General-in-Chief:​

​

We have met with a serious disaster; extent not yet ascertained. Enemy overwhelmed us, drove our right, pierced our center, and scattered troops there. Thomas, who had seven divisions, remained intact at last news. Granger, with two brigades, had gone to support Thomas on the left. Every available reserve was used when the men stampeded. Burnside will be notified of the state of things at once, and you will be informed. Troops from Charleston, Florida, Virginia, and all along the seaboard are found among the prisoners.​

​

It seems that every available man was thrown against us.​

W. S. ROSECRANS, ​

Major-General, Commanding.​

It appears that General Rosecrans himself believed and said he had met with a "serious disaster". He told his commanding officer this on the very day it happened.

That is after Dana's telegram.

Also after Halleck has told Rosecrans that Bragg is sending Troops to Lee. Also after Halleck on about the 14th has determined that Bragg is being reinforced.

Cover you BUTT time!

 

[DanSBHawk]

"Please stop demanding sources"
says everything.

Please provide sources that it says everything.

 

[trice]

That is after Dana's telegram.

Also after Halleck has told Rosecrans that Bragg is sending Troops to Lee. Also after Halleck on about the 14th has determined that Bragg is being reinforced.

Cover you BUTT time!

Well, it is after Dana's 4 PM dispatch to Stanton and before Dana's 8 PM dispatch to Stanton. This is the 4 PM one:

CHATTANOOGA, September 20, 1863--4 p.m.​

​

My report to-day is of deplorable importance. Chickamauga is as fatal name in our history as Bull Run. The battle began late this morning. The first cannon was fired at 9, but no considerable firing till 10. Previous to 10 Rosecrans rode the whole length of lines. All seemed promising, except columns of dust within rebel lines moving north, and report from our right that enemy had been felling timber there during night. Soon after the battle commenced Thomas, who held the left, began to call for re-enforcements. Then about 12 came word that he had been forced to retire to his second line. Re-enforcements were sent him, and McCook's whole corps, which was on right and as reserve in the center, was ordered to his assistance. Wood, of Crittenden's corps, and Van Cleve, who held the front in center, were also ordered to left, where the fury of cannonade showed that enormous rebel force was massed. Their places were filled by Davis and Sheridan, of McCook's corps. But hardly had these divisions taken their places in the line when the rebel fire, which had slackened on our left ever since it was turned and driven back about three-quarters of an hour previously, suddenly burst over in enormous volume upon our center.​

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Never in any battle I have witnessed was there such a mass of cannon and musketry. This lasted some twenty minutes, and then Van Cleve, on Thomas right, was seen to give way, but in tolerable order, soon after which the lines of Sheridan and Davis broke in disorder, borne down by immense columns of enemy. These columns are said to have consisted of Polk's entire corps. They came through with resistless impulse, composed of brigades formed in divisions. Before them our soldiers turned and fled. It was wholesale panic. Vain were all attempts to rally them. They retreated directly across two lines of considerable ridges running parallel to our line of battle, and then most of them made their way over Missionary Ridge, and are coming here by Chattanooga Valley road. Our wagon trains have mostly got here already, and the road is full of a disordered throng of fugitives. McCook, with the right of his corps and Wilder's mounted infantry, attempted to recover the day, but it was useless. Davis and Sheridan are said to be coming off at the head of a couple of regiments in order, and Wilder's brigade marches out unbroken. Thomas, too, is coming down the Rossville road with an organized command, but all the rest is confusion. Our wounded are all left behind, some 6,000 in number. We have lost heavily in killed today. The total of our killed, wounded, and prisoners can hardly be less than 20,000, and may be much more.​

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How much artillery We lose I cannot guess, nor do I yet know what officers have been lost. Lytle said to be killed. Rosecrans escaped by Rossville road. Enemy not yet arrived before Chattanooga. Preparations making to resist his entrance for a time.​

​

[C. A. DANA.] ​

[Hon. E. M. STANTON, ​

Secretary of War.]​

Dana's 8 PM report :

CHATTANOOGA, September 20, 1863--8 p.m.

I am happy to report that my dispatch of 4 p.m. to-day proves to have given too dark a view of our disaster. Having been myself swept bodily off the battle-field by the panic-struck rabble into which the divisions of Davis and Sheridan were temporarily converted, my own impressions were naturally colored by the aspect of that part of the field. It appears, however, that only those two divisions were actually routed, and that Thomas, with the remainder of the army, still holds his part of the field. Beside the two divisions of Davis and Sheridan, those of Negley and Van Cleve were thrown into confusion, but were soon rallied and hold their places, the first on the left, the second on the right of Thomas' fighting column. In addition to this Davis and Sheridan have succeeded in rallying some 8,000 or 10,000 of the fugitives, and have also joined Thomas. This corps, consisting, after all losses, of at least 30,000 men, has still further been strengthened by the addition of that portion of the reserve lately stationed at Rossville under Granger. It has changed its front from the nearly north-and-south line of this morning, and faces the enemy in an east-and-west line. It will at once fall back to the strongest line of defense, for the purpose of defeating enemy's design of regaining Chattanooga and the Tennessee.

The latest report from Thomas is that he was driving back the advance of the rebels. In addition to these forces we have the cavalry and mounted infantry, not less than 10,000 in number, who are perfectly intact, and with this army it is not difficult to make good our lines until re-enforcements can arrive. The cavalry at our last advices had their headquarters at Crawfish Spring, where they will perhaps be able to protect our main hospital until the wounded can be brought here by the Chattanooga Valley road, which still is free from rebels.

The number of the enemy yesterday and to-day I estimate at not less than 70,000. He was able to touch and threaten our lines at all points, and still form the tremendous columns whose onset drove Thomas back and dissolved Sheridan and Davis in panic. I learn from General Rosecrans, who himself took part in the effort previously to the final stampede of Sheridan's division, that that general charged the advancing columns of the enemy in flank. The charge was too spasmodic to be effectual; our men became involved in the rushing mass and did not break it. Rosecrans has telegraphed Burnside to hurry forward his re-enforcements. The advance of his cavalry is reported as having leached Cleveland yesterday morning.

Some gentlemen of Rosecrans' staff say Chickamauga is not very much worse than was Murfreesborough. I can testify to the conspicuous and steady gallantry of Rosecrans on the field. He made all possible efforts to rally the broken columns; nor do I see that there was any fault in the disposition of his forces.

The disaster might perhaps have been avoided but for the blunder of McCook in marching back from his previous advanced position. That blunder cost us four days of precious time.

[C. A. DANA.]
[Hon E. M. STANTON,
Secretary of War.]

 

[DanSBHawk]

Btw Livermore was never near Chattanooga during the war.

I already asked this, but I suspect that again you won't reply. How many of the members of the military board were at Chattanooga during the war?

The problem is this selective dismissing of some sources, or of placing too much emphasis on other sources. It's not serious history.

 

[David Moore]

Why not highlight this portion?:
Some gentlemen of Rosecrans' staff say Chickamauga is not very much worse than was Murfreesborough. I can testify to the conspicuous and steady gallantry of Rosecrans on the field. He made all possible efforts to rally the broken columns; nor do I see that there was any fault in the disposition of his forces.

 

[David Moore]

Mr Hawk I'm assuming you haven't actually read the War Dept report as it contains much contemporaneous documentation. It seems you dismiss the Board's conclusion yet you weren't there.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Mr Hawk I'm assuming you haven't actually read the War Dept report as it contains much contemporaneous documentation. It seems you dismiss the Board's conclusion yet you weren't there.

Yes I have read the report. And yes, there is much documentation. Livermore analyzed it and came to a different conclusion than the board. You have dismissed Livermore for not being at Chattanooga.

So. Again. How many of the board were at Chattanooga? These officers who read the documentation and offered an interpretation. How many were at Chattanooga?

 

[David Moore]

Considering that the Board members were on active duty and they were investigating - at the request of Gen Smith- something that happened almost 40 years earlier I doubt any of them were at Chattanooga. However two of them visited Chattanooga as part of the investigation.
So your opinion is the Board got it wrong? What
specifically In their conclusion did they get wrong?
(Don't feel guilty about me wasting my time. I'm multitasking)

 

[DanSBHawk]

Considering that the Board members were on active duty and they were investigating - at the request of Gen Smith- something that happened almost 40 years earlier I doubt any of them were at Chattanooga. However two of them visited Chattanooga as part of the investigation.
So your opinion is the Board got it wrong? What
specifically In their conclusion did they get wrong?
(Don't feel guilty about me wasting my time. I'm multitasking)

So you dismiss Livermore because he wasn't at Chattanooga. Even though he studied the same documentation as the board.

And yet you accept the conclusion of the board, even though none of them was at Chattanooga.

This is why I have zero confidence in the modern Rosecrans/Thomas fan writers. It's not serious history. Read Livermore and tell me what he got wrong.

 

[trice]

Why not highlight this portion?:
Some gentlemen of Rosecrans' staff say Chickamauga is not very much worse than was Murfreesborough. I can testify to the conspicuous and steady gallantry of Rosecrans on the field. He made all possible efforts to rally the broken columns; nor do I see that there was any fault in the disposition of his forces.

Why not pay attention to the clear opinion of General Rosecrans and Dana that the Union had suffered a disaster? That is the answer to your actual question. All you are doing here is trying to go off on a tangent to escape the parts you do not wish to see.

 

[David Moore]

Why not pay attention to the clear opinion of General Rosecrans and Dana that the Union had suffered a disaster? That is the answer to your actual question. All you are doing here is trying to go off on a tangent to escape the parts you do not wish to see.

Disaster is different from defeat. There can be a disaster within a victory. Isn't that a big part of the defense of Grant's Overland Campaign? Rosecrans perhaps was trying to finally get the attention of the authorities in Washington who had neglected to reinforce him and even told him thst Bragg was sending troops to Lee.
Want me to post some letters by Rosecrans' soldiers written right after Chickamauga? I assume you read the one I posted earlier which speaks of Rosey's invincible army. And yes those soldiers were there.

 

[David Moore]

Why not pay attention to the clear opinion of General Rosecrans and Dana that the Union had suffered a disaster? That is the answer to your actual question. All you are doing here is trying to go off on a tangent to escape the parts you do not wish to see.

What would be your definition of a Union victory at Chickamauga?
Total destruction of a larger enemy?
Withdrawal of the enemy toward Atlanta?
What would a severely wounded Union army do not really knowing how many more troops might be on their way to Bragg?
My point isn't a tangent it is very clear Chickamauga was a strategic Union victory. Rosecrans certainly believed that.
What Dana believed depended on what benefitted him at any given moment.

 

[David Moore]

Are you really comparing Livermore's speech given around 1908 to the work of the Board?
It seems most of his sourcing is the OR - not always reliable- and the papers sent to the board by Smith.
What role did Smith play in the construction of pontoons and steamboats?
What was his communication with Hooker prior to Oct 19?

 

[DanSBHawk]

Are you really comparing Livermore's speech given around 1908 to the work of the Board?
It seems most of his sourcing is the OR - not always reliable- and the papers sent to the board by Smith.
What role did Smith play in the construction of pontoons and steamboats?
What was his communication with Hooker prior to Oct 19?

In other words, you seriously can't come up with anything Livermore got wrong.

I'm not going to address your flailing around. It's obvious that Livermore was right.

 

[trice]

My point isn't a tangent it is very clear Chickamauga was a strategic Union victory. Rosecrans certainly believed that.

You really need to stop saying things like this. You have already been shown what Rosecrans himself believed and reported to his superiors: "We have met with a serious disaster; extent not yet ascertained. Enemy overwhelmed us, drove our right, pierced our center, and scattered troops there."

THAT is what Rosecrans sent to Halleck a few hours after Longstreet's attack. That is why Halleck, Lincoln, Stanton, Grant and all the others think Chickamauga was a defeat -- because Rosecrans told them that it was, a disaster. Stop trying to deny what actually happened.

 

[David Moore]

You really need to stop saying things like this. You have already been shown what Rosecrans himself believed and reported to his superiors: "We have met with a serious disaster; extent not yet ascertained. Enemy overwhelmed us, drove our right, pierced our center, and scattered troops there."

THAT is what Rosecrans sent to Halleck a few hours after Longstreet's attack. That is why Halleck, Lincoln, Stanton, Grant and all the others think Chickamauga was a defeat -- because Rosecrans told them that it was, a disaster. Stop trying to deny what actually happened.

You really need to stop saying things like this. You have already been shown what Rosecrans himself believed and reported to his superiors: "We have met with a serious disaster; extent not yet ascertained. Enemy overwhelmed us, drove our right, pierced our center, and scattered troops there."

THAT is what Rosecrans sent to Halleck a few hours after Longstreet's attack. That is why Halleck, Lincoln, Stanton, Grant and all the others think Chickamauga was a defeat -- because Rosecrans told them that it was, a disaster. Stop trying to deny what actually happened.

Does "all the others" include Rosecrans soldiers? Are you saying what Rosecrans wrote in his first telegram to what had been an unresponsive Washington was what he felt ever afterwards? Why do you think JR Young called it -presumably the entire campaign in Tennessee- a victory? I of course discuss and document this in my book but that's inconsequential.

I

 

[David Moore]

Mr Hawk does flailing around meaning asking questions at the specific things Smith did to open the Cracker Line like construction orders? Not an important aspect of the operations I suppose.
If I find time I'll go through the war Dept report and find the specifics of what it says about Smith's claims. Perhaps you could do the same with Livermore's claims.

 

[David Moore]

You really need to stop saying things like this. You have already been shown what Rosecrans himself believed and reported to his superiors: "We have met with a serious disaster; extent not yet ascertained. Enemy overwhelmed us, drove our right, pierced our center, and scattered troops there."

THAT is what Rosecrans sent to Halleck a few hours after Longstreet's attack. That is why Halleck, Lincoln, Stanton, Grant and all the others think Chickamauga was a defeat -- because Rosecrans told them that it was, a disaster. Stop trying to deny what actually happened.

 

[David Moore]

Does "all the others " include Rosecrans' soldiers?
Do you believe that what Rosecrans wrote in his first message to what had been an unresponsive Washington was what he ever after believed?
I of course discuss and document this topic in my book but that apparently is inconsequential.
All the others doesn't include JR Young or Turchin. They no doubt saw the result of the Tennessee campaigns as a victory.
What in your opinion would have been a Union victory at Chickamauga? I think this is a paramount question. Obviously the destruction of Bragg's larger army is one answer. But then what? I'd really like to know what you or others think about that question.

 

[NedBaldwin]

… They no doubt saw the result of the Tennessee campaigns as a victory. …

You are conflating the "Tennessee campaigns" and the battle of Chickamauga.