Muzzleldrs Lorenz 1854

Horry

Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Just acquired a Lorenz and was hoping for information. It was made in 1861 and has a 28 inch barrel.
Here are some photos:

84771E87-1A70-46FA-B432-A5820F8BC224.jpeg


E02796DD-C250-4511-8B8D-8B21665C8B81.jpeg


E3C34E89-C17B-4019-A5C9-DD18BCCCE26E.jpeg


688237FA-B7A7-4595-8967-14DD0428B4EA.jpeg
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
The stock was cut down. The original stock is much longer. I don't have a picture handy but if you Google 1854 Lorenz you will find pictures of the musket with its original stock. Yours has the cheek rest style stock. Many of the Confederate-purchased Lorenzes had that. Obviously the front and rear sight are missing. The barrel length should be 37.5 inches long. My guess is somebody converted it into a shotgun.

Both the North and South purchased Lorenzes (approx 300,000 total, making it the 2nd most common imported musket, 2nd only to the 1853 Enfield). Confederate ones were .54 caliber. Union ones were often re-bored to higher calibers anywhere between .54 -.58, typically. But alas, I am not an expert. I am sure others can provide more information.
 
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ShortSeb

Private
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Location
Vienna/AUSTRIA
Confederate ones were .54 caliber. Union ones were often re-bored to higher calibers anywhere between .54 -.58, typically. But alas, I am not an expert. I am sure others can provide more information.

So, the Confederates needed three drifferent bulltet sizes back then? .58 for their Springfields and Richmonds, slightly smaller ones for their .577 Enfield barrels AND .54 bullets for the Lorenz?
 

Yankee Brooke

First Sergeant
Joined
Jun 8, 2018
Location
PA
So, the Confederates needed three drifferent bulltet sizes back then? .58 for their Springfields and Richmonds, slightly smaller ones for their .577 Enfield barrels AND .54 bullets for the Lorenz?

No, .54 cal was issued regardless as it fit all three. At least I believe that's what happened.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Confederates used .54 bullets in the .54 Lorenz. Early in the war both sides, but especially the Confederates, used whatever gun was available, so the logistics were quite complicated by the wide range of calibers. I have never read anything saying that .54s were being fired out of .58s, not as a standard procedure.

I forgot to say...nice pics! Thanks for sharing.
 

ShortSeb

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Oct 19, 2019
Location
Vienna/AUSTRIA
So the Confederates produced special cartridges for the Lorenz with .54 Minies and special cartridges with .58 Minies for their Springfields, etc. Were there different cartridges between the ones for the .58 Springfield/Richmond/... and the .577 Enfield?

PS: Sorry for the slight offtopic.
 

koabd1978

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Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Location
West Michigan
So the Confederates produced special cartridges for the Lorenz with .54 Minies and special cartridges with .58 Minies for their Springfields, etc. Were there different cartridges between the ones for the .58 Springfield/Richmond/... and the .577 Enfield?

PS: Sorry for the slight offtopic.

.58 & .577 would use same round as the design of the minie ball used a projectile smaller than the rifle bore and the explosion of the powder charge expanded the hollow base of projectile .
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
Charles,

Your firearm was, once upon a time, a .547 inch (13.9 mm) caliber Muster 1854 System Lorenz Jägerstutzen or Dornstutzen, probably a Jägerstutzen. Jägerstutzen were used to arm the first two ranks in Austrian Army Jäger battalions, while Dornstutzen were used to arm the non-commissioned officers and expert shots in the third rank. The Federal Army imported approximately 7,000 of them, and the Confederate Army an unknown, and probably unknowable, number.

At some point, your rifle was converted to a fouling piece: stock shortened; barrel shortened, probably bored smooth, and turned from octagonal to round for the front half; and a wooden ramrod with thimbles attached to the underside of the barrel. It is not a Civil War gun in this configuration, and other than as a wall hanger it has no value except the salvage value of some of the metal parts.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

Horry

Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
The stock was cut down. The original stock is much longer. I don't have a picture handy but if you Google 1854 Lorenz you will find pictures of the musket with its original stock. Yours has the cheek rest style stock. Many of the Confederate-purchased Lorenzes had that. Obviously the front and rear sight are missing. The barrel length should be 37.5 inches long. My guess is somebody converted it into a shotgun.

Both the North and South purchased Lorenzes (approx 300,000 total, making it the 2nd most common imported musket, 2nd only to the 1853 Enfield). Confederate ones were .54 caliber. Union ones were often re-bored to higher calibers anywhere between .54 -.58, typically. But alas, I am not an expert. I am sure others can provide more information.
Thanks for your response .
I have seen a reference to another rifle that had a 28 inch barrel, could this just be a coincidence? And this rifle has a wedge to help hold the stock on. Don’t believe the standard rifle had a wedge but just barrel bands.
 

tbuckley

Sergeant
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
The trigger guard and 28 inch barrel make me suspect that this is a M1854 Lorenz Jaeger Short Rifle. The sights have been removed and stock shortened post-war for use as a shotgun.
Mr. Dixon beat me to it as I was typing. He's right.
 
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Jeff in Ohio

Corporal
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
The Austrian arms can be pretty confusing, especially since some were modified before or at the time of our Civil Way (such as converting the unusual tubelock ignition system to a percussion system), but more confusingly, tens of thousands were converted AFTER the war in various ways for sale on the civilian market, as was your gun
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Thanks for your response .
I have seen a reference to another rifle that had a 28 inch barrel, could this just be a coincidence? And this rifle has a wedge to help hold the stock on. Don’t believe the standard rifle had a wedge but just barrel bands.
Correct. Barrel bands over springs was the standard configuration for the 1854 Lorenz.
 

ShortSeb

Private
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Location
Vienna/AUSTRIA
The Austrian arms can be pretty confusing, especially since some were modified before or at the time of our Civil Way (such as converting the unusual tubelock ignition system to a percussion system), but more confusingly, tens of thousands were converted AFTER the war in various ways for sale on the civilian market, as was your gun

I AM an Austrian and get confused too with the whole Lorenz System and the equipment that were used in my army at that time. So nothing to be ashamed here. 😄
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
I finally took a look at one of my reference books (Civil War Guns by William B. Edwards). It's an older book, so maybe updated information exists today. Based on the trigger guard shape, it would be logical to conclude its the Jaeger version of the Lorenz (29,850 of these were imported), but there is one major inconsistency that cannot be explained by any later alteration....the barrel length of the Jaeger is 26 inches, whereas your barrel is 28 inches. The other inconsistency is that only the last 4.5 inches should be rounded, the rest should be octagon, though it is possible the barrel was later altered to make it round. Your barrel is not the standard Lorenz musket barrel because the octagon portion would only be 8 - 10 inches long, and clearly the octagon portion on yours is much longer.

Before we discuss your musket any further, please verify the barrel length by re-measuring the barrel from where the barrel tang begins to extend back from the rest of the barrel. Do you measure 26 or 28 inches based on this method?

Also, do you see any stamped markings near the breech?

Can you see down the bore to the bottom of the breech? Do you see a metal ledge near the bottom (called a "tige" that would support the bullet)? Any rifling still evident? (if yes, describe the number of grooves...there should be 4, with the grooves and lands being equal width).

The Jaeger's with the tige were remarkably accurate. At 246 yards, 100 bullets could be fired into a 6 inch bullseye. In the Austrian army, these guns were given to the best marksmen.

It's too bad this gun got cut down. :frown:

Update to my first post on this: the Lorenz calibers varied from .54 to .59 (apparently, some manufacturers were re-boring to meet the .58 specification of the North, but didn't know whether to base that on the groove-to-groove widths or the land-to-land widths).

Comment re the Pictures: You take great pics by the way!! I wish I could take such nice photos when I post. Did you use a proper camera (versus a cell phone), what lighting did you use, and what was the backdrop?
 

Horry

Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
I finally took a look at one of my reference books (Civil War Guns by William B. Edwards). It's an older book, so maybe updated information exists today. Based on the trigger guard shape, it would be logical to conclude its the Jaeger version of the Lorenz (29,850 of these were imported), but there is one major inconsistency that cannot be explained by any later alteration....the barrel length of the Jaeger is 26 inches, whereas your barrel is 28 inches. The other inconsistency is that only the last 4.5 inches should be rounded, the rest should be octagon, though it is possible the barrel was later altered to make it round. Your barrel is not the standard Lorenz musket barrel because the octagon portion would only be 8 - 10 inches long, and clearly the octagon portion on yours is much longer.

Before we discuss your musket any further, please verify the barrel length by re-measuring the barrel from where the barrel tang begins to extend back from the rest of the barrel. Do you measure 26 or 28 inches based on this method?

Also, do you see any stamped markings near the breech?

Can you see down the bore to the bottom of the breech? Do you see a metal ledge near the bottom (called a "tige" that would support the bullet)? Any rifling still evident? (if yes, describe the number of grooves...there should be 4, with the grooves and lands being equal width).

The Jaeger's with the tige were remarkably accurate. At 246 yards, 100 bullets could be fired into a 6 inch bullseye. In the Austrian army, these guns were given to the best marksmen.

It's too bad this gun got cut down. :frown:

Update to my first post on this: the Lorenz calibers varied from .54 to .59 (apparently, some manufacturers were re-boring to meet the .58 specification of the North, but didn't know whether to base that on the groove-to-groove widths or the land-to-land widths).

Comment re the Pictures: You take great pics by the way!! I wish I could take such nice photos when I post. Did you use a proper camera (versus a cell phone), what lighting did you use, and what was the backdrop?

The barrel measures 28 inches not including the tang. I have found several references that the jaeger had a 28 inch barrel. There are numbers or letters on the barrel but can not make them out at the moment.
The barrel had the small post brass front sight and the large rear sight that has been filled in apparently.
Can not see to the bottom of the barrel but can feel something that reduces the size near the breech.
There are 5 hash marks inside the stock and on the bottom of the barrel. Seems all matching numbers as well.

11AB56D5-D8AF-4883-A16A-B09079782DED.jpeg


C58F3BFD-ACA2-45F5-AC15-317BE8AE9B00.jpeg
 

Horry

Cadet
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
The barrel measures 28 inches not including the tang. I have found several references that the jaeger had a 28 inch barrel. There are numbers or letters on the barrel but can not make them out at the moment.
The barrel had the small post brass front sight and the large rear sight that has been filled in apparently.
Can not see to the bottom of the barrel but can feel something that reduces the size near the breech.
There are 5 hash marks inside the stock and on the bottom of the barrel. Seems all matching numbers as well.
 

James N.

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So the Confederates produced special cartridges for the Lorenz with .54 Minies and special cartridges with .58 Minies for their Springfields, etc. Were there different cartridges between the ones for the .58 Springfield/Richmond/... and the .577 Enfield?

PS: Sorry for the slight offtopic.
After scanning this - hopefully I didn't miss it somewhere! - I'd like to point out that .54 ammunition was also needed for the very many "Mississippi" Rifles that were in Confederate service. (And Union too.)
 

Don Dixon

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Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
So the Confederates produced special cartridges for the Lorenz with .54 Minies and special cartridges with .58 Minies for their Springfields, etc. Were there different cartridges between the ones for the .58 Springfield/Richmond/... and the .577 Enfield?

The Federal Army used their standard .58 caliber ammunition in the System Lorenz arms bored out and re-rifled to .577 or .58 caliber. It was quite common to find Springfield, Enfield, and Lorenz .577/.58 caliber arms in the same units at the same time. Training and maintenance would be a problem, but the weapons used the same ammunition.

Both sides used U.S. Army standard .54 caliber ammunition in the standard ".54" caliber System Lorenz rifles. The problem was that it was too small for good accuracy. U.S. elongated balls were .537 inches, while the ordnance standard for the bores of the System Lorenz rifles was .547 inches, with an acceptable variance up to .557. Both the Federal and Confederate ordnance establishments were incompetent.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

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