Collection M1854 Lorenz Question

[brdmbru]

I acquired an 1854 Lorenz from an online auction. It appears someone tried to stain it and the stain is also on the metal parts of the rifle as well. I only wanted it for display purposes. But as far as value goes. Is it better to just leave it or should I try to remove the stain from the metal or have the entire rifle redone? I paid $600 for it.

 

[Gandycreek]

Pictures would surely help in the evaluation of your Lorenz !

 

[Salterr]

Altering any civil war piece lowers its value but it's already been altered with new stain so I think it would be ok to clean the metal part. If not, the metal and stained area will age differently than the rest of the parts. Pictures will help to see just how much restoration was done.

 

[Package4]

I acquired an 1854 Lorenz from an online auction. It appears someone tried to stain it and the stain is also on the metal parts of the rifle as well. I only wanted it for display purposes. But as far as value goes. Is it better to just leave it or should I try to remove the stain from the metal or have the entire rifle redone? I paid $600 for it.

Pictures please, then we can give you the best advice.

 

[brdmbru]

Pictures please, then we can give you the best advice.

I will get pictures up later this evening. Thank you all.

 

[brdmbru]

Let me know if a different picture would be more helpful. Also if you have any comments on the markings.

 

[brdmbru]

Pictures please, then we can give you the best advice.

Can you take a look at my musket pictures.

 

[JOHN42768]

The "Bird" stamping on tail of lock plate is an Austrian Proof Mark

 

[Conquerordie]

I don't think it's been restained, I think someone covered the whole gun with a shellac or laquer at some point. It could be BLO too. You'd have to proceed with caution while removing it so as not to remove any patina that might be under it. Whatever you do don't make the metal shiney again! The stock doesn't look too bad from the pics.
The lock is dated 1860, gives you an idea when it was manufactured. Does it have a fixed rear sight, or a folding one? Does it have a cheekpiece? This will determine if it's a Type 1 or Type 2, and if it was Austrian military, or made for export. It's a nice looking gun.

 

[scooter748driver]

I'd wipe it down with some Kramers Best and leave it alone.

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[Trooper "D"]

Let me know if a different picture would be more helpful. Also if you have any comments on the markings.

View attachment 542158

View attachment 542159

View attachment 542160

Good deal for $600.00

 

[brdmbru]

I don't think it's been restained, I think someone covered the whole gun with a shellac or laquer at some point. It could be BLO too. You'd have to proceed with caution while removing it so as not to remove any patina that might be under it. Whatever you do don't make the metal shiney again! The stock doesn't look too bad from the pics.
The lock is dated 1860, gives you an idea when it was manufactured. Does it have a fixed rear sight, or a folding one? Does it have a cheekpiece? This will determine if it's a Type 1 or Type 2, and if it was Austrian military, or made for export. It's a nice looking gun.

It has no rear or front sight or front for that matter. Here are 3 more pictures. As you can see its also cracked where the screw went into Butt Plate.

 

[Conquerordie]

Has the dovetail been filled in for the rear sight? Is it rifled still? Really if it's just gonna be a display piece, I'd get the appropriate ramrod and like scooter748driver said, hit it with some Kramer's and hang her up. It's not a bad example, but incorrect ramrod and no sights will effect its value. As will the removal of the rifling which was commonly done after the war when these guns were sold off as surplus. Originally it was Austrian military.

 

[brdmbru]

Has the dovetail been filled in for the rear sight? Is it rifled still? Really if it's just gonna be a display piece, I'd get the appropriate ramrod and like scooter748driver said, hit it with some Kramer's and hang her up. It's not a bad example, but incorrect ramrod and no sights will effect its value. As will the removal of the rifling which was commonly done after the war when these guns were sold off as surplus. Originally it was Austrian military.

Do you know what this letter H is and what these numbers may be? I can not see where the sight may have been at all. Also is it as simple as looking into the barrel? If so it is smooth as far as I can see in.

 

[Conquerordie]

Do you know what this letter H is and what these numbers may be? I

No sorry. If you use the Search feature and look up M1854 Lorenz, you will get a lot of info. Mr. Don Dixon knows more on this than any of us. So he might chime in or look for his past post on Lorenz rifles. But ti will say the Austrians marked their rifles with letters and numbers all over these guns, and there is no sheet that tells what they mean. The rear sight would have been cut into a dovetail on your barrel around where the octogon transitions into round. It would have been rifled originally, and been bored out.

 

[brdmbru]

No sorry. If you use the Search feature and look up M1854 Lorenz, you will get a lot of info. Mr. Don Dixon knows more on this than any of us. So he might chime in or look for his past post on Lorenz rifles. But ti will say the Austrians marked their rifles with letters and numbers all over these guns, and there is no sheet that tells what they mean. The rear sight would have been cut into a dovetail on your barrel around where the octogon transitions into round. It would have been rifled originally, and been bored out.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Don Dixon]

Your musket was a Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifle musket. The Austrian Kaiser's double headed eagle on the lockplate ["bird"] is an Austrian Army [k.k. Army] acceptance - not inspection - stamp. K.K. Army weapons are liberally marked with assembly and inpection markings, but there is no known crib sheet for them. I don't see a k.k. Army unit mark on your limited photographs. The cheek piece on the left buttstock indicates that it was manufactured to k.k. Army standards, so I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if it was sold to the Federals or Confederates from k.k. Army war reserve stocks. The ramrod is not a k.k. Army ramrod. Cracking in the European red beech used in the stocks of these guns is common as the wood aged.

Since it is missing its sights, I can't tell if it was a Type I [block rear sight] or Type II [flip-up long range rear sight] variant. It was sold as surplus after the Civil War and transformed into a fowling piece [i.e., it was bored smooth, the sights were removed, and the rear sight slot was filled]. The saving grace was that the "sporterization" was fairly minimal, since often the stock and barrel were also shortened in transformation.

What to do with it? At this point it has no value to a knowledgeable collector as a Civil War or k.k. Army weapon, although it is worth more as parts than what you paid for it if you elected to part it out. You can clean it up, get a proper ramrod [good reproductions are available for less than $100], and hang it on the wall. Or, you can restore it as a shooter. I'm a shooter, so I would probably have the barrel relined to .58 caliber. Bobby Hoyt is one of the folks who does that type of work. He can also put a correct, although taller front sight on it, and I would see if he could remove the filler from the rear sight slot. Original Type I rear sights are available, as are good reproduction Type II rear sights.

Have fun with it.

Regards,
Don Dixon

 

[brdmbru]

Your musket was a Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifle musket. The Austrian Kaiser's double headed eagle on the lockplate ["bird"] is an Austrian Army [k.k. Army] acceptance - not inspection - stamp. K.K. Army weapons are liberally marked with assembly and inpection markings, but there is no known crib sheet for them. I don't see a k.k. Army unit mark on your limited photographs. The cheek piece on the left buttstock indicates that it was manufactured to k.k. Army standards, so I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if it was sold to the Federals or Confederates from k.k. Army war reserve stocks. The ramrod is not a k.k. Army ramrod. Cracking in the European red beech used in the stocks of these guns is common as the wood aged.

Since it is missing its sights, I can't tell if it was a Type I [block rear sight] or Type II [flip-up long range rear sight] variant. It was sold as surplus after the Civil War and transformed into a fowling piece [i.e., it was bored smooth, the sights were removed, and the rear sight slot was filled]. The saving grace was that the "sporterization" was fairly minimal, since often the stock and barrel were also shortened in transformation.

What to do with it? At this point it has no value to a knowledgeable collector as a Civil War or k.k. Army weapon, although it is worth more as parts than what you paid for it if you elected to part it out. You can clean it up, get a proper ramrod [good reproductions are available for less than $100], and hang it on the wall. Or, you can restore it as a shooter. I'm a shooter, so I would probably have the barrel relined to .58 caliber. Bobby Hoyt is one of the folks who does that type of work. He can also put a correct, although taller front sight on it, and I would see if he could remove the filler from the rear sight slot. Original Type I rear sights are available, as are good reproduction Type II rear sights.

Have fun with it.

Regards,
Don Dixon

WOW, that is some great information! I really appreciate your knowledge on this. I wish I would have found this forum years ago. You guys have infinite knowledge and I have learned more in the last 2 weeks than the past 50 years I have had an interest in this.

Thank You!

Brad Brubaker

 

[Package4]

It has no rear or front sight or front for that matter. Here are 3 more pictures. As you can see its also cracked where the screw went into Butt Plate.

View attachment 542420

View attachment 542421

View attachment 542422

I concur with previous comments and since this will most likely be an attractive wall hanger, I would very carefully take the weapon apart, being especially aware of not buggering the slots in screws. There are many tricks to loosening screws that are stubborn and patience is a virtue and key. I will oil the offending screw and let sit, then cloaking the screw driver head with a thick cloth work it loose. What you think of as stain is most likely a heavy lacquer/ varnish and would remove from metal parts with the appropriate light stripping agent. I would not go beyond that as the patina is what helps to make the piece more attractive as a wall hanger. Do not use any abrasives on the metal, let the stripper work and wipe clean with a soft cloth. You may get a little ambitious and strip the wood, but that is a bit more involved and may be best to leave as is.

I have two of these, both CS attributed and as Don has explained this wood tends to dry and crack. Another anomaly I have found with this weapon or run of weapons, was a casting/boring flaw where lead would build up about 1/2-3/4 down the barrel rendering the weapon ineffective. I can only make this statement through personal observation of five such weapons, one in my possession attributed to the 12th VA another found on the field of Williamsburg and three where I put the rammer down the barrel at various gunshows. My 12th VA piece actually had the lock partially blown out as a result of the back pressure created by the protrusion and the subsequent lead build up. I keep promising myself to have the barrel X-Rayed to see what may be there.

You have done very well and have a nice displayable piece.

 

[brdmbru]

I concur with previous comments and since this will most likely be an attractive wall hanger, I would very carefully take the weapon apart, being especially aware of not buggering the slots in screws. There are many tricks to loosening screws that are stubborn and patience is a virtue and key. I will oil the offending screw and let sit, then cloaking the screw driver head with a thick cloth work it loose. What you think of as stain is most likely a heavy lacquer/ varnish and would remove from metal parts with the appropriate light stripping agent. I would not go beyond that as the patina is what helps to make the piece more attractive as a wall hanger. Do not use any abrasives on the metal, let the stripper work and wipe clean with a soft cloth. You may get a little ambitious and strip the wood, but that is a bit more involved and may be best to leave as is.

I have two of these, both CS attributed and as Don has explained this wood tends to dry and crack. Another anomaly I have found with this weapon or run of weapons, was a casting/boring flaw where lead would build up about 1/2-3/4 down the barrel rendering the weapon ineffective. I can only make this statement through personal observation of five such weapons, one in my possession attributed to the 12th VA another found on the field of Williamsburg and three where I put the rammer down the barrel at various gunshows. My 12th VA piece actually had the lock partially blown out as a result of the back pressure created by the protrusion and the subsequent lead build up. I keep promising myself to have the barrel X-Rayed to see what may be there.

You have done very well and have a nice displayable piece.

Thank you sir! I appreciate your input and knowledge!