Lee Doesn't Order Pickett's Charge

The short and only correct answer is, we don't know and never will. There are just way too many variables to consider, especially when don't know what he would have done instead. We can talk about what his next best move was, which IMO was to consolidate his lines on Seminary Ridge and sit back for a day and wait for a Union attack. But no can predict even how that would have turned out.

The bigger problem is, Lee had an unsustainable supply line, so his invasion was always going to be merely a raid. He was destined to have to retreat at some point, and needed a cataclysmic victory in order to justify the invasion.

As to your larger question, would it be possible to win the war? The answer there is most likely no. The war was lost in the West, and nothing Lee could do was going to change the trajectory of the war in the west, IMO.
I consider myself a copperhead, and I would say that the U.S.Civil War was lost for the South on September 18th 1862. Up until that point I believe victory was possible, but never probable.
 
What if Lee didn't attack and neither did Meade? If both sides decided to go defensive, Lee would've definitely been on a fool's errand. Even if he scoured, scrounged, and stole, from areas breadbasket to feed his troops, he eventually would have run out of ammunition, especially artillery. Union cavalry would've destroyed any supplies on the long march to Gettysburg. He had to either attack or retreat. Logistics was not on his side.
 
But, you keep shifting blame into Longstreet. It was Lee's army and his responsibility to ensure, regardless of who he placed in charge of the actual attack, that the resources were there.

The whole reason a chain of command exists, both then and now, is because we recognize that it is Humanly impossible for a single man to control everything in a large force. This is particularly true on a large battlefield with multiple engagements occurring, with the communications technology of the time. Lee had issued his orders and it was Longstreet's job as his subordinate to carry them out to the best of his ability. Lee had provided the resources and it was up to Longstreet on Day 3 to properly utilize them.

Color me skeptical. I tend to think more troops just means more casualties. The truth is, the AOP was in a fairly compact situation, so any initial breach would just run into more and more troops as it moved deeper. Reinforcements to repair a breach were close at hand.

I also tend to seriously discount this whole analysis if the first section is intended to make us think Lee did not agree to hold back Hood's and McLaws' divisions. Its well documented under the final plan they were not expected to attack, but to maintain their positions. If Longstreet, on his own and without Lee's permission, held back two divisions, I find it hard to believe Lee would not have mentioned this in his report, and continued to have great confidence in Longstreet's abilities.

The Union batteries were already low on ammunition confronting the historical force; more troops means there is more targets than they have capacity to engage so it comes down to an infantry fight. By Day 3, Meade had no deep reserves, everything was already on the line so his ability to counter-attack means leaving somewhere else weak:

century_3_344_gettysburg18.gif


As far as Lee and Longstreet, I don't think it's out of bounds that Longstreet was Lee's favorite and he'd cover for him. We do know he played favorites, after all, and I do think that is a valid critique in of itself. I'm not saying Longstreet was an incompetent either, but I do think his performance on Day 3 needs to be viewed in the same way we consider the Knoxville Campaign for example.
 
The whole reason a chain of command exists, both then and now, is because we recognize that it is Humanly impossible for a single man to control everything in a large force. This is particularly true on a large battlefield with multiple engagements occurring, with the communications technology of the time. Lee had issued his orders and it was Longstreet's job as his subordinate to carry them out to the best of his ability. Lee had provided the resources and it was up to Longstreet on Day 3 to properly utilize them.



The Union batteries were already low on ammunition confronting the historical force; more troops means there is more targets than they have capacity to engage so it comes down to an infantry fight. By Day 3, Meade had no deep reserves, everything was already on the line so his ability to counter-attack means leaving somewhere else weak:

View attachment 544519

As far as Lee and Longstreet, I don't think it's out of bounds that Longstreet was Lee's favorite and he'd cover for him. We do know he played favorites, after all, and I do think that is a valid critique in of itself. I'm not saying Longstreet was an incompetent either, but I do think his performance on Day 3 needs to be viewed in the same way we consider the Knoxville Campaign for example.
Meade had a shorter logistical tail than Lee. He could've replenished much easier and quicker.
 
The whole reason a chain of command exists, both then and now, is because we recognize that it is Humanly impossible for a single man to control everything in a large force. This is particularly true on a large battlefield with multiple engagements occurring, with the communications technology of the time. Lee had issued his orders and it was Longstreet's job as his subordinate to carry them out to the best of his ability. Lee had provided the resources and it was up to Longstreet on Day 3 to properly utilize them.



The Union batteries were already low on ammunition confronting the historical force; more troops means there is more targets than they have capacity to engage so it comes down to an infantry fight. By Day 3, Meade had no deep reserves, everything was already on the line so his ability to counter-attack means leaving somewhere else weak:

View attachment 544519

As far as Lee and Longstreet, I don't think it's out of bounds that Longstreet was Lee's favorite and he'd cover for him. We do know he played favorites, after all, and I do think that is a valid critique in of itself. I'm not saying Longstreet was an incompetent either, but I do think his performance on Day 3 needs to be viewed in the same way we consider the Knoxville Campaign for example.
Longstreet would have needed an attack force two to three times the size of what he had available to have any realistic chance of breaching and holding the Union line.
 
Meade had a shorter logistical tail than Lee. He could've replenished much easier and quicker.

Meade had cut himself off from his supply lines in order to get to Gettysburg faster; IIRC, his supply wagons didn't catch up until July 5th or 6th. In the event Lee succeeds in breaching his lines, the Pipe Creek order stipulated they'd abandon Gettysburg and fall back on the aforementioned position. Personally, I think at that stage Lee would also cut his losses and withdraw back into Virginia since he's succeeded in most of his goals.

Longstreet would have needed an attack force two to three times the size of what he had available to have any realistic chance of breaching and holding the Union line.

The study argues he could've done it if reinforced by 1-3 additional brigades, which I think is sound when considering the state of the Federals at that time. As noted earlier the Union artillery was already low on munitions and the only non-deployed brigades left to Meade were Grant and Russell's on the extreme south of the battlefield guarding the flank. By the time they could arrive to counter-attack, the deed would long since be done.
 
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The whole reason a chain of command exists, both then and now, is because we recognize that it is Humanly impossible for a single man to control everything in a large force. This is particularly true on a large battlefield with multiple engagements occurring, with the communications technology of the time. Lee had issued his orders and it was Longstreet's job as his subordinate to carry them out to the best of his ability. Lee had provided the resources and it was up to Longstreet on Day 3 to properly utilize them.



The Union batteries were already low on ammunition confronting the historical force; more troops means there is more targets than they have capacity to engage so it comes down to an infantry fight. By Day 3, Meade had no deep reserves, everything was already on the line so his ability to counter-attack means leaving somewhere else weak:

View attachment 544519

As far as Lee and Longstreet, I don't think it's out of bounds that Longstreet was Lee's favorite and he'd cover for him. We do know he played favorites, after all, and I do think that is a valid critique in of itself. I'm not saying Longstreet was an incompetent either, but I do think his performance on Day 3 needs to be viewed in the same way we consider the Knoxville Campaign for example.
Yeah, not convincing me in the least. Seems you are more focused on blaming Longstreet and not finding fault with Lee, than you are in dealing realistically with the facts.
 
The whole reason a chain of command exists, both then and now, is because we recognize that it is Humanly impossible for a single man to control everything in a large force. This is particularly true on a large battlefield with multiple engagements occurring, with the communications technology of the time. Lee had issued his orders and it was Longstreet's job as his subordinate to carry them out to the best of his ability. Lee had provided the resources and it was up to Longstreet on Day 3 to properly utilize them.



The Union batteries were already low on ammunition confronting the historical force; more troops means there is more targets than they have capacity to engage so it comes down to an infantry fight. By Day 3, Meade had no deep reserves, everything was already on the line so his ability to counter-attack means leaving somewhere else weak:

View attachment 544519

As far as Lee and Longstreet, I don't think it's out of bounds that Longstreet was Lee's favorite and he'd cover for him. We do know he played favorites, after all, and I do think that is a valid critique in of itself. I'm not saying Longstreet was an incompetent either, but I do think his performance on Day 3 needs to be viewed in the same way we consider the Knoxville Campaign for example.
If you are betting your whole campaign in a single attack, you better be on the ground to make sure it's carried out. That Alexander failed to silence Union batteries should have been enough to cancel the attack
 
I do think there are valid grounds for criticisms as it relates to Day 3 and Pickett's Charge. Lee's plan of operations for the operation were quiet sound, and it seems quiet clear Longstreet-due to disagreeing with the plan-failed to properly carry it out as ordered.
Lee was acting under the assumption that the Day 2 attack plan would have succeeded had it been properly supported by elements of Hill and Ewell's Corps. Consequently, with some variations in units and attack focal point, Lee chose to make another attempt on Day 3 at breaching the federal line and carrying Cemetery Hill. But Lee's operational plan still suffered from the same deficiencies that doomed the assault on Day 2. Insufficient manpower, a renewed concentration of federal defenders, Ewell's uncoordinated and unsuccessful assault at the Confederate far left flank, a troubled lack of command and control between Longstreet and Hills' Corps, an unrealistic belief in the power of an offensive artillery bombardment, and lack of proper support by Lang and Wilcox's brigades on the right flank were all flawed components that could have been anticipated. To fault Longstreet for not carrying out Lee's "plan" as ordered is simply an attempt to deflect blame from Lee himself.
 
Coordinating large scale attacks with multiple corps involved seems to have been exceptionally difficult the whole war. Lee kept trying to make it work well into 1863 with pretty mixed success and a lot of his successes in 1864 can be attributed to allowing his opponents to fail at the same thing.
 
Yeah, not convincing me in the least. Seems you are more focused on blaming Longstreet and not finding fault with Lee, than you are in dealing realistically with the facts.
Well to be fair their are eyewitness accounts of Longstreet's shall we say tardiness in the field on day 3 , For a start Ewell had orders to attack at 10am which he did and we know that Pickets division was in place by 9am and according to Freemantle at this point Longstreet is relaxing if at this point Lee had delayed Longstreet's attack why is Ewell still attacking? The whole point of Ewells attack is to make sure Meade does not support his centre and yet Picketts attack does not step off till 1400 that's one big delay?.

The thing that baffles me is why Ewell was told to attack so early and I suspect Lee maybe tried to cancel that order but Ewell trying to make up for his failure on the first day acting on Lee's order with immediate effect and so it was too late , The delay was no doubt caused by the Artillery being put in place between 142-164 guns depending on accounts even so I fully believe Longstreet wanted to see the effectiveness of the artillery barrage and draw it out if he could in the hope Lee might rescind his order , The fact that Union Arty stopped firing to save ammunition might have convinced Lee to press ahead with the attack.

Their is evidence to suggest that Longstreet was throwing a strop that's a given however on the other hand Lee should have adapted his Plan when Ewell attacked as ordered 4 hours before the actual assault.

An interesting note as Matt Atkinson points out is the assault pretty much failed because Fry's brigade was made the centre point of the attack meaning that Picketts men had to keep left oblique constantly while offering their flanks to the enemy , Its also noted that Hill's men were so cramped in that they got in each others way so putting even more men into the attack might have actually worsened the situation.
 
Well to be fair their are eyewitness accounts of Longstreet's shall we say tardiness in the field on day 3 , For a start Ewell had orders to attack at 10am which he did and we know that Pickets division was in place by 9am and according to Freemantle at this point Longstreet is relaxing if at this point Lee had delayed Longstreet's attack why is Ewell still attacking? The whole point of Ewells attack is to make sure Meade does not support his centre and yet Picketts attack does not step off till 1400 that's one big delay?.

The thing that baffles me is why Ewell was told to attack so early and I suspect Lee maybe tried to cancel that order but Ewell trying to make up for his failure on the first day acting on Lee's order with immediate effect and so it was too late , The delay was no doubt caused by the Artillery being put in place between 142-164 guns depending on accounts even so I fully believe Longstreet wanted to see the effectiveness of the artillery barrage and draw it out if he could in the hope Lee might rescind his order , The fact that Union Arty stopped firing to save ammunition might have convinced Lee to press ahead with the attack.

Their is evidence to suggest that Longstreet was throwing a strop that's a given however on the other hand Lee should have adapted his Plan when Ewell attacked as ordered 4 hours before the actual assault.

An interesting note as Matt Atkinson points out is the assault pretty much failed because Fry's brigade was made the centre point of the attack meaning that Picketts men had to keep left oblique constantly while offering their flanks to the enemy , Its also noted that Hill's men were so cramped in that they got in each others way so putting even more men into the attack might have actually worsened the situation.
It wasn't so much that Ewell attacked early as the Twelfth Corps attacked him at first light. This was very much a continuation of the fighting from the previous evening and would result in the longest sustained fighting of the battle (about 7 hours on July 3). Regardless of what Lee had planned (and I'm not convinced he had any plan beyond keep up the pressure on the flanks), the Yankees took the decision making out of his hands very early on. It wasn't until about noon that Lee realized that he had to come up with something else as Ewell had been repulsed pretty decisively.

My criticism of the plan that Lee came up with was how on the fly it was. Details were sketchy at best, putting Longstreet in command of the assault even though more troops came from another corps, plans for supports were also sketchy at best, and planning around some significant suppositions was risky. That said, this attack was vintage Lee in that it was an aggressive strike with a reliance on the courage and elan of his troops. In another timeline, he would have been a heck of a riverboat gambler.

Ryan
 
Yeah, not convincing me in the least. Seems you are more focused on blaming Longstreet and not finding fault with Lee, than you are in dealing realistically with the facts.

To phrase it another way, your contention is more troops means more casualties but that begs an obvious question: How? In the Civil War there are two ways to stop a massed assault: Break it up with artillery before it impacts your lines or meet it with sufficient strength of your own to stop it. By the time the attack stepped off:
  • Meade had ordered the stoppage of counter-battery fire because the Union artillery was already dangerously low on munitions. Given the historical force was already enough to stretch them this much, how would they be able to inflict more casualties on a larger force?
  • As noted in the map, Meade has no reserves by the time the attack stops off. If the Confederate attack breaks the Union line, there's only one brigade somewhat close to respond and it's at least a couple of hours march.
So, to reiterate, how exactly are the Federals supposed to stop a larger attack? According to the simulations, they can't and think the historical situation supports that.

If you are betting your whole campaign in a single attack, you better be on the ground to make sure it's carried out. That Alexander failed to silence Union batteries should have been enough to cancel the attack

Nobody on the Confederate side knew Alexander had failed to do that; as noted above, the Federal guns stopped firing during the barrage which gave the impression that they had been silenced:
As an example, from the moment he saw the large concentration of Confederate batteries along Seminary Ridge, Hunt took preventive action to prepare for a possible enemy bombardment, as he later described:

…beginning on the right [of the 2nd Corps], I instructed the chiefs of artillery and battery commanders to withhold their fire for fifteen or twenty minutes after the cannonade commenced, then to concentrate their fire with all possible accuracy on those batteries which were most destructive to us—but slowly, so that when the enemy's ammunition was exhausted, we should have sufficient left to meet the assault.36 Hunt started at the northern end of Cemetery Ridge, near Zeigler's Grove, and then rode south to deliver these new orders, and thus the first batteries he encountered belonged to the 2nd Corps.
 
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Lee was acting under the assumption that the Day 2 attack plan would have succeeded had it been properly supported by elements of Hill and Ewell's Corps. Consequently, with some variations in units and attack focal point, Lee chose to make another attempt on Day 3 at breaching the federal line and carrying Cemetery Hill. But Lee's operational plan still suffered from the same deficiencies that doomed the assault on Day 2. Insufficient manpower, a renewed concentration of federal defenders, Ewell's uncoordinated and unsuccessful assault at the Confederate far left flank, a troubled lack of command and control between Longstreet and Hills' Corps, an unrealistic belief in the power of an offensive artillery bombardment, and lack of proper support by Lang and Wilcox's brigades on the right flank were all flawed components that could have been anticipated. To fault Longstreet for not carrying out Lee's "plan" as ordered is simply an attempt to deflect blame from Lee himself.

The point of the study-and my argument-is that these deficiencies could be rectified and the reason they were not is because of Longstreet. As case in point, Lee had ordered and anticipated a stronger attack than what occurred as the study notes:

According to Sears, three additional brigades from Anderson's division under Wright, Posey and Mahone were "loosely designated" as support on the left for the attack, but never engaged. They contained approximately 3350 men (Sears, 2003: 392). Stewart notes that at least Wright's brigade was briefly moved forward, but Longstreet recalled it to defend against a potential counterattack (1959: 237). The remainder of Longstreet's corps also stood in the area, and thus Coddington notes that Lee "anticipated throwing another 10,000 or so infantry into the breach he expected to be made by the assaulting column" (Coddington, 1983: 462).

As Attack Commander, virtually all of these faults you cite were under Longstreet's direct purview. In particular, ensuring support by Wilcox and Lang as well as establishing firm command and control were tasks he could have and should have managed to do. Instead, most accounts of the day as well as his own note he was still trying to convince Lee to change his mind well into the morning of July 3rd and thereafter was essentially sullen. He had his orders, and only half-heartedly obeyed them as the unfolding of the attack showed. This wasn't a one time deal during the Battle either, given his own Chief of Staff noted he didn't follow orders on July 2nd:

 
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Well to be fair their are eyewitness accounts of Longstreet's shall we say tardiness in the field on day 3 , For a start Ewell had orders to attack at 10am which he did and we know that Pickets division was in place by 9am and according to Freemantle at this point Longstreet is relaxing if at this point Lee had delayed Longstreet's attack why is Ewell still attacking? The whole point of Ewells attack is to make sure Meade does not support his centre and yet Picketts attack does not step off till 1400 that's one big delay?.

The thing that baffles me is why Ewell was told to attack so early and I suspect Lee maybe tried to cancel that order but Ewell trying to make up for his failure on the first day acting on Lee's order with immediate effect and so it was too late , The delay was no doubt caused by the Artillery being put in place between 142-164 guns depending on accounts even so I fully believe Longstreet wanted to see the effectiveness of the artillery barrage and draw it out if he could in the hope Lee might rescind his order , The fact that Union Arty stopped firing to save ammunition might have convinced Lee to press ahead with the attack.

Their is evidence to suggest that Longstreet was throwing a strop that's a given however on the other hand Lee should have adapted his Plan when Ewell attacked as ordered 4 hours before the actual assault.

An interesting note as Matt Atkinson points out is the assault pretty much failed because Fry's brigade was made the centre point of the attack meaning that Picketts men had to keep left oblique constantly while offering their flanks to the enemy , Its also noted that Hill's men were so cramped in that they got in each others way so putting even more men into the attack might have actually worsened the situation.
All we really know on the point of the timing is that Longstreet claims he never received any orders for an early attack, and all of his actions tend to support this contention. Lee did note in his report, though, that he had expected an attack earlier. But Lee and Longstreet did not meet after the end of the second day's fight, so it seems there were a lot of operational details that needed to worked out in person (such was what troops were to participate in the attack) that did not occur until the 3rd. If Lee seriously expected Hoods and McLaws divisions to spearhead the attack, with the addition of Pickett, then he truly was asking way too much of his troops. I have to believe after the severe fighting on the second, and the immense casualties they suffered, that to ask them to attack a fortified position again the very next day was just insanity. As it was, the troops from Hill who had been in the first days fight probably was a poor choice to attack on the third, they had a full days rest! Would love to know what Lee thought was going to happen early on the third, but as we know the plan changed dramatically after Longstreet and Lee met.

I'm not sure I agree Pickett was in place by 9. Can I ask the source for that? My understanding is that Pickett camped a few miles back from the battlefield and that while he may have started to arrive by 9, that is far from meaning his lines were dressed and ready to move forward at 9. It would take quite some time to move his regiments into their assigned places and properly align them. My understanding is that Longstreet was actually faulted for not telling Pickett to move out earlier, so he could be in place earlier.

I do have to admit I never really understood the reason for the wide gap between Pickett and Hill's troops. I assume there was some good reason for it, but no idea what that might be. Someone told me awhile back that it was due to an intervening woods, and that marching through the woods would have badly disorganized the lines so it was deemed best to move Picket south to avoid that. Not sure I agree with that, but that is one theory I have heard. It does seem, though, that Pickett's constant obliquing seriously raised the odds of the attack failing.
 
It wasn't so much that Ewell attacked early as the Twelfth Corps attacked him at first light. This was very much a continuation of the fighting from the previous evening and would result in the longest sustained fighting of the battle (about 7 hours on July 3). Regardless of what Lee had planned (and I'm not convinced he had any plan beyond keep up the pressure on the flanks), the Yankees took the decision making out of his hands very early on. It wasn't until about noon that Lee realized that he had to come up with something else as Ewell had been repulsed pretty decisively.

My criticism of the plan that Lee came up with was how on the fly it was. Details were sketchy at best, putting Longstreet in command of the assault even though more troops came from another corps, plans for supports were also sketchy at best, and planning around some significant suppositions was risky. That said, this attack was vintage Lee in that it was an aggressive strike with a reliance on the courage and elan of his troops. In another timeline, he would have been a heck of a riverboat gambler.

Ryan
I'm also very struck by a quote from E.P. Alexander about this attack. In Fighting for the Confederacy he makes clear that the point of attack selected was perhaps the worst possible choice. Pickett was aimed at the shank of the fish hook, and this could be enfiladed along the whole line from Cemetery Hill to Little Round Top. The logical point of attack was at the bend of the fish hook, so that troops approaching would not be subject to being enfiladed, and would have the cover of the town in their approach. Also, being in the center of the CSA arc, the point could be subject to a massive cross fire from batteries from the Second and Third Corps, all converging on a central point from multiple directions.
 
Coordinating large scale attacks with multiple corps involved seems to have been exceptionally difficult the whole war. Lee kept trying to make it work well into 1863 with pretty mixed success and a lot of his successes in 1864 can be attributed to allowing his opponents to fail at the same thing.
To make matters worse, Lee's managerial style was to set forth the "big picture" and let his subordinate corps commanders figure out how to accomplish it. That only goes so far; when command, control, and coordination were always major issues during the CW, an army commander should have been more communicative and assertive in ensuring that attack plans were totally understood, able to be accomplished, and were carried out.
 
To make matters worse, Lee's managerial style was to set forth the "big picture" and let his subordinate corps commanders figure out how to accomplish it. That only goes so far; when command, control, and coordination were always major issues during the CW, an army commander should have been more communicative and assertive in ensuring that attack plans were totally understood, able to be accomplished, and were carried out.

This is always true, but it was especially true for Lee at Gettysburg, when two of his corps commanders were new to the job. Ewell, in particular, had been sidelined for nearly a year.
 

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