Lee Doesn't Order Pickett's Charge

I wonder sometimes if Longstreet had received a long term independent army command whether or not he'd have gotten the same criticisms Johnston gets.

He was apparently offered command of the Army of Tennessee by Jefferson Davis, but declined it in what Longstreet described as a somewhat unpleasant discussion. He stated later that by that time, late 1863, the South was finished, and could only just hold out.

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General Longstreet was, during and after the war, the foremost of the champions of General Johnston. Longstreet states that on that occasion he verbally sought a resignation from the service, which was declined.

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He was apparently "not the man" to the administration circles after that admission that he was largely in agreement with Johnston on several issues (thus Mary Chesnut's notices among the Richmond set of Longstreet in late 1863 as "Peter the slow" etc.) Following the Knoxville campaign, he submitted his resignation from the Army again in December, 1863, but it was once again declined...

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I wonder sometimes if Longstreet had received a long term independent army command whether or not he'd have gotten the same criticisms Johnston gets.
Why do you think that? The idea that Longstreet had some defensive only mindset is very inaccurate. At Chickamauga he was very much behind attacking the Union and at Knoxville when in independent commander he had no qualms launching attacks. I don't think he is very much like Johnston at all.
 
He did in fact receive something of one -- the Army of East Tennessee from October, 1863 to February, 1864. He received the nickname "Peter The Slow" for his, well, slowness in moving about.
I agree that if fault is found with Longstreet it's that he never really pushed his soldiers hard in the march.
 
Why do you think that? The idea that Longstreet had some defensive only mindset is very inaccurate. At Chickamauga he was very much behind attacking the Union and at Knoxville when in independent commander he had no qualms launching attacks. I don't think he is very much like Johnston at all.
Longstreet could arrange powerful attacks, but clearly preferred force preservation. That's not to say that that was the wrong mindset for a corps commander to have, but he did not like to arrange attacks without preparing every minute advantage in his favor and generally took as much time to prepare as he felt necessary to do so. None of these are bad qualities to have, and I don't really fault Johnston for having a similar mindset, but exhausting the North with a long grinding war was not going to be ultimately successful as a strategy. People of good faith can disagree as to whether any series of strategies at all could have been successful, but Lee's pursuit of a Cannae like destruction of a northern field army seems to me like a more complete goal than keeping as much of an army together and hoping to contest as many river lines as possible ultimately seems to have been.

I'm not of the mindset that he was a bad corps commander or that he would have been a bad army general per se, I just don't think many generals of the time had particularly good insight as to how to end the war and Longstreet wasn't unique in this respect. Longstreet's best quality may have been that he was able to work with Lee while being a Johnston man, when so many of Johnston's other subordinates were ultimately unable to work with Lee.
 
Longstreet could arrange powerful attacks, but clearly preferred force preservation. That's not to say that that was the wrong mindset for a corps commander to have, but he did not like to arrange attacks without preparing every minute advantage in his favor and generally took as much time to prepare as he felt necessary to do so. None of these are bad qualities to have, and I don't really fault Johnston for having a similar mindset, but exhausting the North with a long grinding war was not going to be ultimately successful as a strategy. People of good faith can disagree as to whether any series of strategies at all could have been successful, but Lee's pursuit of a Cannae like destruction of a northern field army seems to me like a more complete goal than keeping as much of an army together and hoping to contest as many river lines as possible ultimately seems to have been.

I'm not of the mindset that he was a bad corps commander or that he would have been a bad army general per se, I just don't think many generals of the time had particularly good insight as to how to end the war and Longstreet wasn't unique in this respect. Longstreet's best quality may have been that he was able to work with Lee while being a Johnston man, when so many of Johnston's other subordinates were ultimately unable to work with Lee.
I just disagree that he "clearly preferred force preservation." At Chickamauga after launching a devastating attack, he banged his head against Horseshoe Ridge, clearly not worried about force preservation. At Knoxville he does the same thing. At the Wilderness, he he launches a devastating frontal assault against Hancock, followed by a flanking attack. Clearly not worried about force preservation.

You said, "I don't really fault Johnston for having a similar mindset" I don't think Johnston and Longstreet were similar at all. Johnston rarely if ever launched attacks, and only did so reluctantly. Longstreet on the other hand, outside of Gettysburg, when on the offensive had now qualms or objections to attacking or frontal attacks for that matter.

You said, "I'm not of the mindset he was a bad corps commander," I'm not sure where this line of thought is coming from. I never in any way hinted Longstreet was a bad corps commadner, in fact he was probably the best corps commander on either side. The idea that Lee was some kind of "cannae" seeking general while Longstreet was some defensive only minded general IMO rises to the level of caricature, and really doesn't evaluate who they were as generals.
 
I just disagree that he "clearly preferred force preservation." At Chickamauga after launching a devastating attack, he banged his head against Horseshoe Ridge, clearly not worried about force preservation. At Knoxville he does the same thing. At the Wilderness, he he launches a devastating frontal assault against Hancock, followed by a flanking attack. Clearly not worried about force preservation.

You said, "I don't really fault Johnston for having a similar mindset" I don't think Johnston and Longstreet were similar at all. Johnston rarely if ever launched attacks, and only did so reluctantly. Longstreet on the other hand, outside of Gettysburg, when on the offensive had now qualms or objections to attacking or frontal attacks for that matter.

You said, "I'm not of the mindset he was a bad corps commander," I'm not sure where this line of thought is coming from. I never in any way hinted Longstreet was a bad corps commadner, in fact he was probably the best corps commander on either side. The idea that Lee was some kind of "cannae" seeking general while Longstreet was some defensive only minded general IMO rises to the level of caricature, and really doesn't evaluate who they were as generals.
I didn't say you said Longstreet was a bad corps commander, I'm merely saying I myself don't think he was. I also don't think it's that far off to say Lee's disappointment in Lee's own performances in 1862 and 1863 were that he wasn't able to destroy a federal army in the field. I'm sure I could open another can of worms by saying 2nd Manassas possibly shows an example where Longstreet launching his assault a day later missed an opportunity for that attack to be done in concert with the rest of the army.

I'm sort of deeply uninterested in the general ranking of who is best and who is worst because there aren't really apples to apples comparisons of any of these guys: some were presented with fantastic opportunities and some had to live through 1864 or had to live with the logistical constrains of their theater. It's pretty silly to pretend as dweebs on the internet we could have done so much better and know so much better with all the gifts of hindsight.
 
Who knows? You may indeed be right, @Generic Username. I vaguely recall a quote by one of the Confederate generals to the effect that no army in the history of the world could have taken/held the Union center at Gettysburg. (I'll see if I can find it because I could be wrong - too much CW reading during the past 7 decades.)
Was it Wilcox? I think it's in Foote's part 2
 
I didn't say you said Longstreet was a bad corps commander, I'm merely saying I myself don't think he was. I also don't think it's that far off to say Lee's disappointment in Lee's own performances in 1862 and 1863 were that he wasn't able to destroy a federal army in the field. I'm sure I could open another can of worms by saying 2nd Manassas possibly shows an example where Longstreet launching his assault a day later missed an opportunity for that attack to be done in concert with the rest of the army.
I used to think the same thing about 2nd Manassas, but reality is that Porter's Corps was Southeast of Longstreet's flank, if Longstreet launches the offensive on the 29th any earlier, his flank could have been caved in. It was actually smart that they didn't attack earlier.

I'm sort of deeply uninterested in the general ranking of who is best and who is worst because there aren't really apples to apples comparisons of any of these guys: some were presented with fantastic opportunities and some had to live through 1864 or had to live with the logistical constrains of their theater. It's pretty silly to pretend as dweebs on the internet we could have done so much better and know so much better with all the gifts of hindsight.
I wasn't trying to present an all-time list. Nor do I think Longstreet was perfect or that he didn't have his warts, just that the presentation of Longstreet as a defensive general that was more concerned with preserving his troops is not such a black and white issue. Reality is that during the war, Longstreet was responsible for 4 of the most hard-hitting and devastating attacks of the war, 2nd Manassas, Gettysburg day 2, Chickamauga, and the Wilderness. That isn't the evidence of someone husbanding his forces. Nor is it anything close to someone like Joe Johnston, who really has no major successful attacks to his name, or really any major offensives of any repute. I do agree that Longstreet personally liked and respected Johnston, and was maybe closer to him personally than Lee, though that is also debatable imo!

Now if you want to critique Longstreet, his corps was never known as a hard-marching corps, or as one that covered large distances over multiple days. Probably his best marching came during the wilderness where from the 4th to the 5th some 1st corps troops marched an impressive 32 miles, but were still 10 miles short of the battle field. Longstreet received orders to reach Lee by dawn on the 6th, and whether the fault was with Venable or Longstreet, he dallied another couple hours waiting on stragglers to come in before continuing the march, therefore arriving later than expected, which almost led to Confederate disaster at dawn on the 6th when Hancock launched his morning attack.
 
Was it Wilcox? I think it's in Foote's part 2
The quote I was thinking of was made by Longstreet (according to Sears, "Gettysburg," p.357). On the morning of July 3, 1864 Longstreet said to General Lee, "General, I have been a soldier all my life. I have been with soldiers engaged in fights by couples, by squads, companies, regiments, divisions, and armies, and should know, as well as any one, what soldiers can do. It is my opinion that no fifteen thousand men ever arrayed for battle can take that position." Then he pointed to Cemetery Hill.
 
The quote I was thinking of was made by Longstreet (according to Sears, "Gettysburg," p.357). On the morning of July 3, 1864 Longstreet said to General Lee, "General, I have been a soldier all my life. I have been with soldiers engaged in fights by couples, by squads, companies, regiments, divisions, and armies, and should know, as well as any one, what soldiers can do. It is my opinion that no fifteen thousand men ever arrayed for battle can take that position." Then he pointed to Cemetery Hill.
That sounds right. It was in the movie.
 
Longstreet was very much influenced by the ANV's experience at Fredericksburg the previous December. He understood the power of the defensive in an entrenched location and the utter futility of an enemy directly assaulting that position. Going forward, his tactical belief was based on maneuvering the AotP into a similar situation in which the ANV in a defensive position would be able to deliver a similar defeat against a frontal attack. He argued this point with Lee but to no avail. Consequently, Longstreet clearly could foresee the devastating results of the Confederate assault on Day 3 at Gettysburg.
Exactly right, @jackt62.
 
Longstreet had no qualms launching frontal attacks at Chickamauga, Knoxville, and the Wilderness. I think we make this issue to black and white.
You are correct that this is not a "black and white" issue. Longstreet believed that the tactical defensive usually offered a superior outcome. But Longstreet cannot be defined strictly as a defensive" commander. In fact, under his leadership, he was responsible for conducting some of the most outstanding offensive attacks. Amongst those are 2nd Manassas, Chickamauga, the assault on the Union salient at Gettysburg, and the Wilderness. While those assaults were all offensive in nature, they were not (with the exception perhaps of the attack on Fort Sanders at Knoxville), forlorn attempts to simply hurl manpower against a fixed enemy, located behind solid entrenchments as was the case at Fredericksburg, Cold Harbor, and Day 3 at Gettysburg. Longstreet's assaults utilized a combination of tactical methods and consideration of terrain features, including flanking, concentration in columns, and counter-attack under positive conditions. Did he always succeed? Absolutely not, as his overall experience in Tennessee showed. But I would agree that he was one of the top Corps commanders of either side.
 
This debate reminds me a bit of the criticism of Custer at Little Big Horn. While an obvious parallel is impossible and unrealistic, there are circumstances of both commanders that seem similar:

—Both had been successful in the past.
—Both had high confidence in their troops vs. the adversary's performance in the past.
—Neither had detailed knowledge of the terrain or exact makeup and location of the enemy's troops.
—There was a time constraint on taking action.
—In the past, they had been able to defeat some adversaries with inferior numbers.
—They were under superior orders, but had license (or took license) to apply their forces as they saw fit.

Now, Custer is no Robert E. Lee, but I don't blame Lee for taking the actions he did. He tried what worked in the past, and like Custer, this time could not overcome enemy numbers, terrain, and morale.
 
Neither had detailed knowledge of the terrain or exact makeup and location of the enemy's troops
Speaking of Lee, that was precisely his fatal flaw at Gettysburg. Useful intelligence that would normally have been provided by Stuart was sorely lacking in this case; unlike his previous experience, Lee was forced to give up the initiative, which led to the blunders encountered on the battlefield.
 
Speaking of Lee, that was precisely his fatal flaw at Gettysburg. Useful intelligence that would normally have been provided by Stuart was sorely lacking in this case; unlike his previous experience, Lee was forced to give up the initiative, which led to the blunders encountered on the battlefield.
Lee had already decided to concentrate his Army at Gettysburg regardless of Stuart.

Lee's only mistake was to allow to much slack for his corps commaders both Ewell and Hill and Stuart let him down poorly and Longstreet seemed to be pouting and it does not help when the Union decide to not roll over or play ball?.

Many people forget their was another army involved.
 
Lee had already decided to concentrate his Army at Gettysburg regardless of Stuart.
Too late. Lee was in the dark until June 29th when Longstreet's spy Harrison provided info on the AotP's whereabouts. Lee was able to concentrate much of the army and in particular recall Ewell from Harrisburg and vicinity, which gave him an advantage on Day 1. But because of his lack of useful intelligence all along, Lee lost the initiative and never regained it.
 
Lee's only mistake was to allow to much slack for his corps commaders
Yes and no. Leaving slack to his corps commanders was Lee's modus operandi and to a certain extent, is a useful and necessary way for an army commander to manage his subordinates. But Lee was remiss in not providing greater supervision over his 2 most recent Corps commanders, Ewell, and in particular Hill. Ewell actually performed capably from the start of the Gettysburg campaign until the end of Day 1. At the very least, there was a lack of communication between Lee and his Corps commanders that exacerbated coordination along an already lengthy exterior line.
 

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