Stonewall Jackson's lemons

[ole]

Well, let's just say Jackson may well have access to lemons occasionally. At the same time, virtually every farm in the area had fruit trees -- primarily peaches and apples.

 

[Allie]

Nathanb1. This is what makes me wonder about this. Assuming that Florida was producing a crop of lemons and Jackson was admired by a Floridian who had access to the lemons, when you say he "shipped" them to, presumably Northern Virginia, what do you mean by "shipped"? What kind of transportation could do this in 1862? Were Southern railroads shipping lemons in the midst of a civil war? Was there any kind of regular rail service from Florida to Virginia in 1862? Looking at the Southern railway network in 1862, the different gauges requiring loading and reloading, shipping lemons from Florida would have been quite a task. Considering the needs of the Confederate Army, even if they were consigned to Jackson, were the railroads shipping goods like this? If they were to be transported by wagon, even for only part of the trip, what kind of condition would they arrive in? If they were carried from a Florida port by coastal shipping northward, how far would they get without attracting the attention of the USN?

I just don't see the logistics of shipping fruit from Florida in the middle of the Civil War. I just read in some research on this, that shipping Florida citrus fruit to the North did not become feasible until the 1880's with the construction of first rate railroads linking the North and South with uniform gauge rail lines. If you do find that source in Vandiver I would love to know how he got ahold of this story, what his sources were for what seems to me to be an unlikely scenario.

There's a big difference between the commercial viability of shipping an entire crop and one guy shipping a gift box. People and objects did continue to travel, and 1862 is pretty early in terms of the war's impact on the Deep South.

 

[St Albans Raid]

Gods and Generals had a scene regarding lemonade his Esposita had made.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

I believe it was Richard Taylor who started the lemon thing. He related that when he rode up and first met Jackson, the general was munching on a lemon!

Citrus was hard to get. At Petersburg, Lee went all over the countryside to find a lemon as his wife used them in a concoction for her arthritis. He managed to find three shriveled up ones and sent them on to her. As others have mentioned, Jackson ate whatever fruit he found - apparently ripe or not! He was close to being a vegetarian as a matter of fact.

Thanks for the painting, I had forgotten about that one.

 

[Nathanb1]

Nathanb1. This is what makes me wonder about this. Assuming that Florida was producing a crop of lemons and Jackson was admired by a Floridian who had access to the lemons, when you say he "shipped" them to, presumably Northern Virginia, what do you mean by "shipped"? What kind of transportation could do this in 1862? Were Southern railroads shipping lemons in the midst of a civil war? Was there any kind of regular rail service from Florida to Virginia in 1862? Looking at the Southern railway network in 1862, the different gauges requiring loading and reloading, shipping lemons from Florida would have been quite a task. Considering the needs of the Confederate Army, even if they were consigned to Jackson, were the railroads shipping goods like this? If they were to be transported by wagon, even for only part of the trip, what kind of condition would they arrive in? If they were carried from a Florida port by coastal shipping northward, how far would they get without attracting the attention of the USN?

I just don't see the logistics of shipping fruit from Florida in the middle of the Civil War. I just read in some research on this, that shipping Florida citrus fruit to the North did not become feasible until the 1880's with the construction of first rate railroads linking the North and South with uniform gauge rail lines. If you do find that source in Vandiver I would love to know how he got ahold of this story, what his sources were for what seems to me to be an unlikely scenario.

There's a big difference between the commercial viability of shipping an entire crop and one guy shipping a gift box. People and objects did continue to travel, and 1862 is pretty early in terms of the war's impact on the Deep South.

Well, thanks Allie...got here a little late, but your answer is pretty much what I'd say. Several of us deciphered a soldier's diary from that period a few years ago (eventually finding out what happened to the writer), and that young man--a common soldier--rode trains all over the south carrying a huge box of his unit's pots and pans. Makes sense a parcel of fruit to a celebrity could have made it from Florida (or elsewhere in the deep south) to Virginia by train, being passed from person to person. Didn't have to be a lot--just enough for, say, an FFA gift box.

Whether it's true or not, the fact is that someone probably saw him with some kind of fruit pretty often, and whatever he could get, he ate. LOL, Commissary Banks probably provided a lot of that fruit And being Jackson, people wrote about it. I suspect, like the persimmon incident (he was stuck in the tree and his aides had to help him down), it was just something that stuck in their minds. One wouldn't expect a single-minded soldier like Jackson to be chawin' fruit while he's thinking about military matters! (Forrest whittled.....Grant smoked cigars....Stuart had a banjo player. Whatever works).

 

[Nathanb1]

Henry Kyd Douglas is the source of the sometimes debunked story that Jackson once used a lemon like a baton to give orders, while pausing every now and then to chew on it for its juices. I believe it myself.

Coming from a family where the saying is, "If they tied all the Powers' hands, no one would speak," I believe it, too. You wave your arms--no matter what you're holding. I myself have occasionally waved cups of iced tea because they were in my hand when the moment came. No biggie.

 

[TerryB]

Coming from a family where the saying is, "If they tied all the Powers' hands, no one would speak," I believe it, too. You wave your arms--no matter what you're holding. I myself have occasionally waved cups of iced tea because they were in my hand when the moment came. No biggie.

A.S. Johnston at Shiloh waving a captured tin cup comes to mind as well.

 

[cash]

There's a guy on Twitter who posts as StonewallJacksonsArm. He's pretty funny. He had this one yesterday:

 

[ole]

Well, we do sometimes discuss pointless things.

If Jackson loved lemons and had access to them, what is the price of tea?

 

[Allie]

I'm not looking for them but I keep running into ads for lemons! They may not have been available in 1862 but they were in 1871:

And in 1878, during the terrible Yellow Fever Epidemic, they may not have had enough coffins to go around, but they sure did have lemons!

It seems that if they were not a common crop throughout the South during the war, they became so shortly thereafter.

 

[donna]

In my research on history of lemons, it does appear lemons were available at time of Civil War. They are used in many recipes of the time. They were being grown in Florida and California. See my thread on the History of Lemons in the Food Forum posted today, Feb. 17th.

So in my thoughts, Jackson could have gotten lemons and because of their medicinal properties enjoyed them.

 

[JPinta]

View attachment 59172

Haha! That is great. Now it's settled, I'm for sure bringing a peach or two next time I pass through Lexington!! Don't know when it will be but I will provide photographic proof when I do!

 

[W. Richardson]

I don't know but James Robertson is a highly respected source here.

Yes he is and one of my favorite historians, but does that mean we can't question a highly respected source ? ............I do not mean it in disrespect at all towards Robertson or anyone when I question them or what they state, but when Robertson makes a statement such as he did about Jackson's favorite was peaches and does not give a source........Makes me wonder........lol that's my nature

Respectfully,

William

 

[diane]

Yes he is and one of my favorite historians, but does that mean we can't question a highly respected source ? ............I do not mean it in disrespect at all towards Robertson or anyone when I question them or what they state, but when Robertson makes a statement such as he did about Jackson's favorite was peaches and does not give a source........Makes me wonder........lol that's my nature

Respectfully,

William

For me, anything Robertson says about Jackson is gospel! But you're right - we should always question things, even when we're sure. The Early Life and Letters of General Thomas J Jackson, by his nephew Thomas Jackson Arnold, contains a correspondence (1852) between Stonewall and his sister about peaches:

https://books.google.com/books?id=dRpCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=thomas j jackson and peaches&source=bl&ots=AJmGsOEHS9&sig=ptSEwVurJcNZyYFJbPhFZGuZJBU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KYzjVMSSE87aoAT7h4CIBw&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=thomas j jackson and peaches&f=false

 

[diane]

Well, thanks Allie...got here a little late, but your answer is pretty much what I'd say. Several of us deciphered a soldier's diary from that period a few years ago (eventually finding out what happened to the writer), and that young man--a common soldier--rode trains all over the south carrying a huge box of his unit's pots and pans. Makes sense a parcel of fruit to a celebrity could have made it from Florida (or elsewhere in the deep south) to Virginia by train, being passed from person to person. Didn't have to be a lot--just enough for, say, an FFA gift box.

Whether it's true or not, the fact is that someone probably saw him with some kind of fruit pretty often, and whatever he could get, he ate. LOL, Commissary Banks probably provided a lot of that fruit And being Jackson, people wrote about it. I suspect, like the persimmon incident (he was stuck in the tree and his aides had to help him down), it was just something that stuck in their minds. One wouldn't expect a single-minded soldier like Jackson to be chawin' fruit while he's thinking about military matters! (Forrest whittled.....Grant smoked cigars....Stuart had a banjo player. Whatever works).

Speaking of Forrest - - and fruit... One of the odd things little known about him was he was at one time a rather well respected nurseryman, specializing in fruit trees. This was stock inherited from his grandfather through Uncle Jonathan upon his being deceased. Grandpa Nathan did a booming business as the country was opening up and people wanted to plant orchards, etc. (This is from Wyeth.)

 

[cash]

Haha! That is great. Now it's settled, I'm for sure bringing a peach or two next time I pass through Lexington!! Don't know when it will be but I will provide photographic proof when I do!

And he doesn't need any more Kanye West flags.

 

[cash]

More from StonewallJacksonsArm:

 

[cash]

 

[cash]

 

[James N.]

...Whether it's true or not, the fact is that someone probably saw him with some kind of fruit pretty often, and whatever he could get, he ate. LOL, Commissary Banks probably provided a lot of that fruit And being Jackson, people wrote about it. I suspect, like the persimmon incident (he was stuck in the tree and his aides had to help him down), it was just something that stuck in their minds. One wouldn't expect a single-minded soldier like Jackson to be chawin' fruit while he's thinking about military matters! (Forrest whittled.....Grant smoked cigars....Stuart had a banjo player. Whatever works).

At the Wilderness Grant was observed doing both at the same time.