Stonewall Jackson's lemons

[W. Richardson]

OK, so Confederates might have gotten lemons from the local civilian population but where would THEY have gotten lemons from? I know that in the 19th century oranges were such an uncommon fruit in the North that their being given as a X-mas gift was considered a rare treat. Somebody more familiar with citrus fruits can best answer this question, but in the 1860's was there a citrus crop being harvested in Florida? Does Northern Florida (the region of Florida most settled in 1860) support a citrus crop? Were lemons being grown in other Gulf states? If any of this lemon growing in the deep South was going on how would they have gotten to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley? I cannot imagine Rhett Butler carrying crates of lemons next to the Enfields and chloroform picked up in Nassau. If somehow the Confederates were looting Union supply depots or commissary wagons (for citrus fruit ?) how many of them were likely to be stocked with lemons? Was there some great demand for lemons among Union soldiers that suttlers were carrying them about in their wagons for Confederates to serendipitously find?

My suspicions are that somewhere, sometime, someone thought they observed Stonewall sucking on a lemon and since that is oddball behavior and Jackson was most eccentric (some might say obsessive-compulsive) in many ways, it just seemed both natural and plausible that if anyone was sucking lemons it was foolish Tom Jackson. I think it time to commit this one to Mythbusters for authenticating.

"It is true that Jackson was observed eating lemons on several occasions during the war; this was due only to the fact that he ate whatever fruit was available. When the Confederates captured a Union camp, lemons were sometimes among the food stores that they confiscated; the Union soldiers received lemons and other fruits more frequently than did their Confederate counterparts."

http://www.vmi.edu/archives.aspx?id=3761

Respectfully,

William

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Jackson must have had the palate of a goat, to enjoy such a thing.

Bwaahaahaa! I just spit coffee all over the keyboard.

 

[Lnwlf]

Bwaahaahaa! I just spit coffee all over the keyboard.

Yer gonna have to clean that up yourself Copper!

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Yer gonna have to clean that up yourself Copper!

Luckily I have extra keyboards for just these moments.

 

[kevikens]

OK, I did some research and sure enough there were greenhouses in America as far back as the mid 18th century. Wm. Byrd is reported to have had 3 orange trees in a greenhouse in 1740. Wm. Penn had a greenhouse just outside Phila. in 1745 which was reported to have had "orange, lemon and citrous trees". Gray's tavern in Phila. in 1787 reportedly had both lemons and oranges (whiskey sours?) in their own greenhouse. An 1803 account has a good "orangerie" in Maryland mentioned, though the term orangery may have been used synonymously with greenhouse. So it would appear that some citrus fruit was grown in the region where Jackson operated and it is perfectly conceivable that he had access to local lemons. By the way somebody had to have greenhouses in post Civil War America because untold numbers of civil war photos on glass plates wound up as panes in greenhouses.

 

[W. Richardson]

"Throughout his adult life he followed a strict diet in an effort to overcome the sharp pangs of dyspepsia. That in turn gave rise to one of the most persistent of the Jackson myths, and one totally without foundation: his supposed infatuation with lemons. Novelist John Esten Cooke was one of the first writers to concoct the story of Jackson gnawing feverishly on lemons. General Richard Taylor adorned it shortly by asserting that Jackson "was rarely without one." Taylor always had a tendency in his postwar writings to convert everyone into characters—especially his own superior, General Richard S. Ewell" (7)

(7) John Esten Cooke, Stonewall Jackson: A Military Biography (New York, 1866), 220 and outlines from the outpost (Chicago, 1961), 51; Richard Taylor, Destruction and Reconstruction (New York, 1879), 50

"No member of Jackson's staff, no friend, not even his wife ever mentioned Jackson having a particular penchant for lemons. His Virginia Military Institute colleague, Raleigh Colston, tried to put the story to rest by declaring that a lemon was "a rare treat" that Jackson 'enjoyed greatly whenever it could be obtained from the enemy's camp." Yet that seemed only to give credence to the Jackson-and-lemons tale" (8)

(8) Raleigh E. Colston Reminiscences, SHC (Southern Historical Collection). For other writers perpetuating the lemon myth, see Fitzhugh Lee, General Lee (New York, 1894), 142; James Cooper Nisbet, Four Years on the Firing Line (Jackson, Tenn., 1963), 41, 49. In interviewing Mrs. Jackson for his biography of the general, Robert L. Dabney made the following note: "Jackson's habits of diet queer. Ate at one time nothing saccahrine. No tea, coffee, spices.But a great eater of things simple, & of fruit." Dabney note, box 20, Dabney—SHC.

"The truth of the matter is that the general loved all fruit. Peaches were his favorite; but he enjoyed with relish lemons, oranges, watermelons, apples, grapes, berries, or whatever was available. Still, the lemon myth refuses to die."

Page xi Stonewall Jackson: The Man, The Soldier, The Legend

Okay being doing some research on the matter and I have a question……………

What source does Mr. Robertson use for his statement "Peaches were his favorite", he gives no reference to a source, and I have not found any of the sources I have checked mentioning that peaches were Jackson's favorite, His wife does not mention it, I have as of yet to find a source from his staff that peaches were Jackson's favorite.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robertson gives source after source as to the lemons, but no source for his statement that "peaches were his favorite".

Anyone's help on the matter is welcomed…………………

Respectfully,

William

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

General Richard Taylor adorned it shortly by asserting that Jackson "was rarely without one." Taylor always had a tendency in his postwar writings to convert everyone into characters—especially his own superior, General Richard S. Ewell" (7)

Yes, but don't you think he had a point? One of the reasons it's so absorbing reading about a lot of these men is because they were so interesting. Taylor did no favors to anyone with the lemon myth since it persists 150 years later- although it sounds like he wouldn't have turned one down if offered but the characterization of a man with a few odd kicks in his gallop enhances Jackson's legend rather detracts.

I mean, Lee kept that army together despite an awful lot of very, very strong personalities. We might read about how intractable Jubal Early was or why Grumble Jones earned his name but to be The Man who inspired both of them to play nice, be part of an incredible weapon in Lee's hands, pretty amazing. I don't mean to the Yank commenting on the Confederate army- just get a big kick out of characters- Grumble Jones tragic story turned him into one, and I respect the stuffing out of the man.

So just a question- is it not a ' good' thing for Taylor to have pointed this stuff out in the men around him? I'm not familiar with his writing, maybe that's a bad question- is it considered a little insulting for so many of these legendary men to be considered ' characters'? See, I honestly think it's hugely complimentary, for real. It's tough to maintain one's originality inside an army, they did it anyway, seems to have been part of their success? Maybe in Jackson's case part of some brilliance? ( nobody yell at the ' Yank' getting into this stuff- just have a big soft spot for characters, that's all. Several dozen on both sides. )

 

[18thVirginia]

OK, so Confederates might have gotten lemons from the local civilian population but where would THEY have gotten lemons from? I know that in the 19th century oranges were such an uncommon fruit in the North that their being given as a X-mas gift was considered a rare treat. Somebody more familiar with citrus fruits can best answer this question, but in the 1860's was there a citrus crop being harvested in Florida? Does Northern Florida (the region of Florida most settled in 1860) support a citrus crop? Were lemons being grown in other Gulf states? If any of this lemon growing in the deep South was going on how would they have gotten to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley? I cannot imagine Rhett Butler carrying crates of lemons next to the Enfields and chloroform picked up in Nassau. If somehow the Confederates were looting Union supply depots or commissary wagons (for citrus fruit ?) how many of them were likely to be stocked with lemons? Was there some great demand for lemons among Union soldiers that suttlers were carrying them about in their wagons for Confederates to serendipitously find?

My suspicions are that somewhere, sometime, someone thought they observed Stonewall sucking on a lemon and since that is oddball behavior and Jackson was most eccentric (some might say obsessive-compulsive) in many ways, it just seemed both natural and plausible that if anyone was sucking lemons it was foolish Tom Jackson. I think it time to commit this one to Mythbusters for authenticating.

I read some diary of a girl in South Carolina or Georgia on a large plantation who talked about gathering the oranges just before troops arrived in her area.

We can grow oranges or lemons in North Florida, but you have to protect them from a freeze and sometimes they all get killed. Lemons are actually easier to grow than oranges in our climate.

 

[peteanddelmar]

OK, so Confederates might have gotten lemons from the local civilian population but where would THEY have gotten lemons from? I know that in the 19th century oranges were such an uncommon fruit in the North that their being given as a X-mas gift was considered a rare treat. Somebody more familiar with citrus fruits can best answer this question, but in the 1860's was there a citrus crop being harvested in Florida? Does Northern Florida (the region of Florida most settled in 1860) support a citrus crop? Were lemons being grown in other Gulf states? If any of this lemon growing in the deep South was going on how would they have gotten to Virginia's Shenandoah Valley? I cannot imagine Rhett Butler carrying crates of lemons next to the Enfields and chloroform picked up in Nassau. If somehow the Confederates were looting Union supply depots or commissary wagons (for citrus fruit ?) how many of them were likely to be stocked with lemons? Was there some great demand for lemons among Union soldiers that suttlers were carrying them about in their wagons for Confederates to serendipitously find?

My suspicions are that somewhere, sometime, someone thought they observed Stonewall sucking on a lemon and since that is oddball behavior and Jackson was most eccentric (some might say obsessive-compulsive) in many ways, it just seemed both natural and plausible that if anyone was sucking lemons it was foolish Tom Jackson. I think it time to commit this one to Mythbusters for authenticating.

I think he found a few and THAT WAS NEWS! Eating a peach would have just been normal.
I don't he did it very many times.

 

[peteanddelmar]

I read some diary of a girl in South Carolina or Georgia on a large plantation who talked about gathering the oranges just before troops arrived in her area.

We can grow oranges or lemons in North Florida, but you have to protect them from a freeze and sometimes they all get killed. Lemons are actually easier to grow than oranges in our climate.

How long has citrus been grown in the valley in the southern tip of Texas?

 

[Chattahooch33]

Thomas Jefferson had an orangery and experimented with citrus fruit at Monticello.

And who doesn't love a good peach?

 

[JPinta]

I think he found a few and THAT WAS NEWS! Eating a peach would have just been normal.
I don't he did it very many times.

I tend to lean toward this opinion as well. This is 100% pure speculation on my part, but it seems at least plausible that Jackson eating lemons whenever they were available -- that is to say, not necessarily all that often -- would be more noteworthy than his routine eating of more readily available fruits, even fruits that he actually liked more than lemons. Perhaps the comments of him sucking on lemons have their roots more in this and over the years evolved into his "obsession" with lemons.

 

[Stony]

"Throughout his adult life he followed a strict diet in an effort to overcome the sharp pangs of dyspepsia. That in turn gave rise to one of the most persistent of the Jackson myths, and one totally without foundation: his supposed infatuation with lemons. Novelist John Esten Cooke was one of the first writers to concoct the story of Jackson gnawing feverishly on lemons. General Richard Taylor adorned it shortly by asserting that Jackson "was rarely without one." Taylor always had a tendency in his postwar writings to convert everyone into characters—especially his own superior, General Richard S. Ewell" (7)

(7) John Esten Cooke, Stonewall Jackson: A Military Biography (New York, 1866), 220 and outlines from the outpost (Chicago, 1961), 51; Richard Taylor, Destruction and Reconstruction (New York, 1879), 50

"No member of Jackson's staff, no friend, not even his wife ever mentioned Jackson having a particular penchant for lemons. His Virginia Military Institute colleague, Raleigh Colston, tried to put the story to rest by declaring that a lemon was "a rare treat" that Jackson 'enjoyed greatly whenever it could be obtained from the enemy's camp." Yet that seemed only to give credence to the Jackson-and-lemons tale" (8)

(8) Raleigh E. Colston Reminiscences, SHC (Southern Historical Collection). For other writers perpetuating the lemon myth, see Fitzhugh Lee, General Lee (New York, 1894), 142; James Cooper Nisbet, Four Years on the Firing Line (Jackson, Tenn., 1963), 41, 49. In interviewing Mrs. Jackson for his biography of the general, Robert L. Dabney made the following note: "Jackson's habits of diet queer. Ate at one time nothing saccahrine. No tea, coffee, spices.But a great eater of things simple, & of fruit." Dabney note, box 20, Dabney—SHC.

"The truth of the matter is that the general loved all fruit. Peaches were his favorite; but he enjoyed with relish lemons, oranges, watermelons, apples, grapes, berries, or whatever was available. Still, the lemon myth refuses to die."

Page xi Stonewall Jackson: The Man, The Soldier, The Legend

Okay being doing some research on the matter and I have a question……………

What source does Mr. Robertson use for his statement "Peaches were his favorite", he gives no reference to a source, and I have not found any of the sources I have checked mentioning that peaches were Jackson's favorite, His wife does not mention it, I have as of yet to find a source from his staff that peaches were Jackson's favorite.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robertson gives source after source as to the lemons, but no source for his statement that "peaches were his favorite".

Anyone's help on the matter is welcomed…………………

Respectfully,

William

Told ya. lol Peaches were his favorite.

 

[W. Richardson]

Told ya. lol Peaches were his favorite.

So says Robertson, but with no source as to the statement..............So where did Robertson get it from ?

Respectfully,

William

 

[Nathanb1]

Considering the internal transportation problems of the Confederacy and the Union naval blockade, wherever did Jackson's lemons come from?

Uh. Florida. An admirer apparently shipped boxes of citrus fruit from time to time (including others besides lemons). Sorry, don't have my sources right now, but it might be in Vandiver.

He was hooked on fresh fruit in Mexico, where he tried all types and was rarely without some at a meal. (Don't we all do that? I mean, it's safer than the water! 122 days till the senior cruise!)

 

[Nathanb1]

He climbed up in a persimmon tree to get fresh, ripe persimmons, too. See Douglas, Stonewall Rode with Me.

 

[diane]

He climbed up in a persimmon tree to get fresh, ripe persimmons, too. See Douglas, Stonewall Rode with Me.

Let's hope that's what he was eating! You just can't eat an unripe one unless you have been to the dentist and are numb already... But then, people do eat odd things. My mom's sister loves green peaches with salt.

 

[kevikens]

Uh. Florida. An admirer apparently shipped boxes of citrus fruit from time to time (including others besides lemons). Sorry, don't have my sources right now, but it might be in Vandiver.

He was hooked on fresh fruit in Mexico, where he tried all types and was rarely without some at a meal. (Don't we all do that? I mean, it's safer than the water! 122 days till the senior cruise!)

Nathanb1. This is what makes me wonder about this. Assuming that Florida was producing a crop of lemons and Jackson was admired by a Floridian who had access to the lemons, when you say he "shipped" them to, presumably Northern Virginia, what do you mean by "shipped"? What kind of transportation could do this in 1862? Were Southern railroads shipping lemons in the midst of a civil war? Was there any kind of regular rail service from Florida to Virginia in 1862? Looking at the Southern railway network in 1862, the different gauges requiring loading and reloading, shipping lemons from Florida would have been quite a task. Considering the needs of the Confederate Army, even if they were consigned to Jackson, were the railroads shipping goods like this? If they were to be transported by wagon, even for only part of the trip, what kind of condition would they arrive in? If they were carried from a Florida port by coastal shipping northward, how far would they get without attracting the attention of the USN?

I just don't see the logistics of shipping fruit from Florida in the middle of the Civil War. I just read in some research on this, that shipping Florida citrus fruit to the North did not become feasible until the 1880's with the construction of first rate railroads linking the North and South with uniform gauge rail lines. If you do find that source in Vandiver I would love to know how he got ahold of this story, what his sources were for what seems to me to be an unlikely scenario.

 

[Stony]

So says Robertson, but with no source as to the statement..............So where did Robertson get it from ?

Respectfully,

William

I don't know but James Robertson is a highly respected source here.

 

[TerryB]

Henry Kyd Douglas is the source of the sometimes debunked story that Jackson once used a lemon like a baton to give orders, while pausing every now and then to chew on it for its juices. I believe it myself.