Eagle Head Swords...

[Glen_C]

My Starr 1818 All it lacked was a washer/bumper

There is (iirc) still a similarly crisp example including scabbard frog on eBay but at low four figures. I did luck out in finding it at Stewart's at a bargain price I had done some specifications at one point but danged if I can remember where I posted of it (weight, etc). Mine has some blade nicking.

Cheers
GC

 

[Western Reserve Volunteer]

Man that thing is beautiful, thanks for sharing these pictures. It's a beautiful sword with a value in$ to match! Wasn't there some replicas made way back? I think I recall some post about that...

I really love the early American swords done by Starr, North etc. , they have an unpretentious, purposeful beauty about them.

Yes, I was referring to the 1818 Starr sabres with their clipped points, I really love how the Americans basically took the British pattern 1796 Sabre and improved it by adding that clipped tip. Sometime this weekend I'll have to post a picture of some of the swords preserved in the Cleveland Grays' Arsenal museum, they have two nice eagle heads and a curved Sabre I suspect of being a Cleveland Light Artillery relic (but it would be tough to prove it).

I'd say that blade looks more back sword like to me, I know a lot of British officers used to carry those so that make sense, also "hangers", or short sabres, were in vogue in the time period so perhaps that is what it is meant to have replaced. Is the false edge of the tip sharpened?

Have you ever found a picture anyone who had an heirloom Starr 1818 NCO sword in the Civil War? I imagine they were long phased out by then, but then people apparently took their eagle heads with them, so who knows?

 

[Glen_C]

The clip point sabres were actually a continental European thing.

I can't recall any photos of the Starr NCO at war or studio settings but consider there were fewer of them to begin with. I have not seen one of the reproductions in awhile but have a few pictures of a couple of them.

There are currently reproductions of the Potter sabres and the Starr 1818 sabres.

http://www.theroyalsword.com/english-american-swords.html

Cheers
GC

 

[Robert Dayton Mull]

Sword has been in my family since I can remember. I have attached photo from my mothers old photo album of Col Lewis "L.M." Dayton. Not sure of the origin or it was his when he was aide de camp of Gen Sherman, but I thought I'd share.

 

[Patrick H]

Sword has been in my family since I can remember. I have attached photo from my mothers old photo album of Col Lewis "L.M." Dayton. Not sure of the origin or it was his when he was aide de camp of Gen Sherman, but I thought I'd share.

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I know very little about swords and sabers, but yours jumped out at me for two visual features. First, the blade is hand engraved, rather than etched. I have never seen an example of that with my own eyes, but I saw pictures of one other in this thread. Second, the shape of the ivory grip on your sword seems very unique to me. I like it and I would be very proud if this were in my family!

 

[Robert Dayton Mull]

Thank you Patrick. I must admit it is intriguing! Now to find out who exactly belonged to. The only possible link so far is to Col LM Dayton, Sherman's aide de camp and a great uncle.

 

[Glen_C]

First, the blade is hand engraved,

Actually, it is etching. Art drawn with a needle through a resist on the blade and then etched in those lines. Often following patterns and stencils (needle etching).

The sword is much closer to 1800 than the ACW

https://gunandswordcollector.com/product/eagle-pommel-sword/

Silver Mounted Swords, The Lattimer Family Collection: Featuring Silver Hilts Through the Golden Age: Hartzler, Daniel D: Amazon.com: Books

Silver Mounted Swords, The Lattimer Family Collection: Featuring Silver Hilts Through the Golden Age [Hartzler, Daniel D] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Silver Mounted Swords, The Lattimer Family Collection: Featuring Silver Hilts Through the Golden Age

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Swords appear in families for any number of reasons. Don't start the thought an ancestor had owned or used the sword. Start with an entire family tree and look at military service. The only provenance you have so far is a sword that has been in the family. Find notes, diaries, etc and look at the family a century earlier and then move forward.


Don't touch the condition right now and if just flipping it, pass it on exactly a it is.

Cheers
GC

 

[Robert Dayton Mull]

Thanks for the input Glen, My Sons of the American Revolution roots lead to Generals on both my Maternal grandparents, BG Elijah Dayton and MG Philip Schuyler but I was thinking that was to early to the sword being in that era. My Grandfather was Richard Schuyler Dayton. I think I'll hang onto it for a while!

 

[Glen_C]

It is a great piece and appears to be a silver pommel. The guard may be plated or solid silver.

My roots in the colonies runs deep as well.

The way ancestry expands, I could claim familial association to many fine things. Of dozens of swords I have owned, only one has as solid a provenance as a proof book for the purchased sword. It is though still just a sword and the fellow saw no violence of war, just hung around London as a young man. This British 1821/45 cavalry officers sword is a type of the ACW era and ID was spotted before I even had the proof book sheet. Without bothering with checking, some might easily spin a yarn of confederate greatness

It's easier when they got numbered

Cheers
GC

 

[Specster]

Thanks for the input Glen, My Sons of the American Revolution roots lead to Generals on both my Maternal grandparents, BG Elijah Dayton and MG Philip Schuyler but I was thinking that was to early to the sword being in that era. My Grandfather was Richard Schuyler Dayton. I think I'll hang onto it for a while!

Pretty impressive liniage

 

[tubs]

Trying to figure out what this sword is, need help. This seems to be the right room. The lion face on the langet has me puzzled. Is this an US sword? If so, is it regular army or militia, what branch,and what year is it from? Thanks.

 

[tubs]

Trying to figure out what this sword is, need help. This seems to be the right room. The lion face on the langet has me puzzled. Is this an US sword? If so, is it regular army or militia, what branch, and what year it from? Thanks.

 

[tubs]

Trying to figure out what this sword is, need help. This seems to be the right room. The lion face on the langet has me puzzled. Is this an US sword? If so, is it regular army or militia, what branch, and what year it from? Thanks.

 

[66Jayhawk]

Hopefully Glen will chime in, as he is a serious student of eagle headed US swords, but I'm certain it's a US sword. However, I'm not certain that it's not for a fraternal organization with that lion/green man type of face on the langet. It could also be a US state militia sword. Looking at the blade - do you see anything telling such as cannons, etc, or any Masonic types of symbols?

Eric

 

[Glen_C]

Welcome to the wacky world of eagles

Thanks for the accolades. I've probably overlooked this 'later' period, just because of so many combinations of simple parts. It is a Gruener Mann/Green Man/Blattemaske and we see the langet on French finery around the time Napoleon was done. The knuckle guard and ferrule are more 1820s but even the grip could play in the 1820s. The particular pommel with back piece run for more than two decades, easily into the 1840s. The knuckle bow is found with this langet, quite often but the ferrule singular.

A clipboard I uploaded a couple of years ago. Look in the German Production folder and the Berger folder.

Eagles 3.0 - Google Drive

drive.google.com

I'm confident this is in the Medicus Collection book but I'll confirm (mebbe).

My Antoine Berger from his Alsace period, so it could easily be 1820s

I'm very hung up on ferrule types and that is a topic unto itself

Here are later Paris marked Berger and P.Knecht examples with the pommel type. Siblings churned out in Solingen and rebranded. You may eventually spot initials or a name under the langet

And then the 'West Point' swords as mentioned in Peterson, from the Pallas/Athena, which is also an older French Theme.

The ferrule on your sword is unique to what I am familiar with. The construct was in Solingen or the Alsace area (Klingentahal, etc). The blade typical generic of the first empire, so likely surplus even though US bound. This basic casting is of a French style that somewhat emulated the first empire LePage golden eagle Roman look.

It is great to see a scabbard survive. More piccies please The sword could use some gentle care.

Cheers
GC

 

[Glen_C]

From those files linked, here is a sibling marked to S.H.F. Simon Helvig and sons, which does fit in the 1820s, early 30s but things were changing fast.

More examples will be found on that clipboard

 

[Specster]

I have a similar sword made in England and imported into Baltimore attributed to 1820-30. It has some battle damage. The bluing and gold are damaged. i asked some people who know much more than I did about the item and they told me it would be very difficult to repair...that it was alost art and I should leave it alone.... Opinions?

 

[Glen_C]

I have a similar sword made in England and imported into Baltimore attributed to 1820-30. It has some battle damage. The bluing and gold are damaged. i asked some people who know much more than I did about the item and they told me it would be very difficult to repair...that it was alost art and I should leave it alone.... Opinions?

Would need some pictures to better qualify my opinion. Blue&gilt on blades can be replaced somewhat but it is not done by many. The problem then is matching the condition of the rest of it. One could as economically just find a nice example of the same type. I do know someone that has done it. John Logan, Iron John Logan but he's not been very voiceful lately on Facebook and the website is gone. You can do it yourself. Study up, ventilate well A chatty jeweler might give you a quote.

Strip the blade, redefine the etched lines. Mix up your gold and mercury amalgam and nitre salt mix. Boil off the mercury. There is plain heat bluing on amalgam that was no longer really practiced on the blades by the 19th century, a more iridescent bluing trailing to purples. What you see on case hardened firearms

Cheers
GC

 

[tubs]

Thanks for all the responses, guys. Looking at maybe buying this, would it be a good sword to have and what value you think she has?

 

[Glen_C]

Condition is everything, as far as value goes.

Look, it's not a question of buying something out from under someone but it is impossible to give a reasonable appraisal. A dealer's wholesale price would max at a couple of hundred. These are not uncommon but do date before the ACW. You as a buyer, it is highly subjective. Your budget and interest are your guide. Shop around. As new, really no more than about $1,000 but will price higher. Your post, of a type that while interesting to me, has no value to me. I would repeat some of the previous mentions as take your time, shop around.

Assessing used cars for others has cost me friendships.

Shop around, compare prices. Saving thousands of images is really the best buy. Start with books while looking towards your own interests.

One picture posted to the drive through window doesn't offer any the ability to judge your variables. Are the fries moldy? Was that quarter pounder really a veggie burger? We've only had a small peek inside the bag. I see at least five reasons to not buy the sword.

Cheers