Eagle Head Swords...

[major bill]

These are some beautiful swords. I wish the military would have let me carry a sword. Then again maybe not I did get cut with army bayonets four times.

 

[Private Watkins]

Thank you Glen_C... so glad to have your thoughts and posts, very much appreciate your expertise on the Eagle Head swords!

 

[Private Watkins]

One more soldier with an Eagle Head... (prop or not)...

 

[Private Watkins]

Yes a sibling broadsword and I believe them to be 1840s and possibly even later. A similar sword is referenced in the Flayderman/Mowbray Medicus collection book. Mine was a bit grundgy and lacked a scabbard. Some of this particular form with have blue&gilt, while others white etch, or none at all.

View attachment 75069 View attachment 75070

If you browse the google drive files I linked, you will find more pictures of the example you have shared and mine in the folder marked Spies. British made and exported to dealers in America.

Cheers

GC

Great thank you... does yours have the 15 stars in the shield etched on the blade like the example I shared...?

 

[Glen_C]

Great thank you... does yours have the 15 stars in the shield etched on the blade like the example I shared...?

Mine is completely bare, no etch. I would not relate the fifteen stars with any particular association.in time or place, it is just typical decoration. Folk get carried away trying to date swords by that but consider blades in surplus store were used up over decades of time. Some notable, such as the "Stockton Blue" sabers at first thought considered ACW because of the Horstmann blade mark and they turn out to be much later composites made up by Bannerman.

Fifteen stars simply relates more than thirteen. Browsing the files I linked will show you trends and some very fanciful blade decoration. Some, such as the Bolton blades sporting very mecurial mad as a hatter dancing eagles and Berger's parrot "Polly want a country"

 

[Private Watkins]

Mine is completely bare, no etch. I would not relate the fifteen stars with any particular association.in time or place, it is just typical decoration. Folk get carried away trying to date swords by that but consider blades in surplus store were used up over decades of time. Some notable, such as the "Stockton Blue" sabers at first thought considered ACW because of the Horstmann blade mark and they turn out to be much later composites made up by Bannerman.

Fifteen stars simply relates more than thirteen. Browsing the files I linked will show you trends and some very fanciful blade decoration. Some, such as the Bolton blades sporting very mecurial mad as a hatter dancing eagles and Berger's parrot "Polly want a country"

View attachment 75181 View attachment 75182

Great, thanks for the info... very much appreciated.

 

[Private Watkins]

One more...This handsome gentleman has a very nice militia staff officer's sword (1840-1860). The pommel is cast in the form of an eagle with an exceptionally long neck. In its beak is a ring which holds a double chain connecting with the lower quillion. His sword appears to be very similar to the example shown here (and above...), quite a nice match I think...

 

[Glen_C]

This last long neck eagle found on militia swords will forever be endearingly regarded as the crapping eagle and along with the centurion and knight helmet pommels find long service with a number of fraternal organizations.

While we are regarding militia swords on anACW forum, I feel it important to add these photographs of centurion pommel swords to the thread

federal Lt colonel Charles Norton

Confederate (purportedly) Lt John Warren Palmetto Sharp Shooters

Kady Brownell First RI infantry

A Time Life page from the civil war series of books. NY militia headed for DC

There are quite a few other images of soldiers wearing their militia nco sword and one I'll try to retrace of a group in the field but the field photos of officers wearing or holding non-regulation swords are quite scarce. The Charles Norton photograph one of those rare instances.

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

This last long neck eagle found on militia swords will forever be endearingly regarded as the crapping eagle and along with the centurion and knight helmet pommels find long service with a number of fraternal organizations.

While we are regarding militia swords on anACW forum, I feel it important to add these photographs of centurion pommel swords to the thread

federal Lt colonel Charles Norton

View attachment 75232
View attachment 75248

Confederate (purportedly) Lt John Warren Palmetto Sharp Shooters

View attachment 75249

Kady Brownell First RI infantry

View attachment 75250

A Time Life page from the civil war series of books. NY militia headed for DC

View attachment 75251

There are quite a few other images of soldiers wearing their militia nco sword and one I'll try to retrace of a group in the field but the field photos of officers wearing or holding non-regulation swords are quite scarce. The Charles Norton photograph one of those rare instances.

Cheers

GC

Thank you GC... what was the meaning or symbolism of the Knight's Head or Helmet...? Just representative of martial valor & chivalry... or was there something else?

 

[Glen_C]

The centurion helmet pommels show up earlier during first empire French officer swords, following their revolution. A revival of Roman ideals. It is important to differentiate between the Roman centurion and knight helmet pommels. The example you posted is way past the ACW period, with a very skinny blade. It is easy to drift between which were fraternal and which were truly militia.

It was not a large stretch for Ames to have another continental European trait for swords, as most of the US swords drew influences from across the. By the Mexican War period, the centurion pommel was being produced by Ames and Horstmann followed suit. The earlier swords had shorter blades, with what gets listed as the "1850" militia sword having a longer 25" blade. My motley crew.

A good primer for American swords is Harold Peterson's book
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0960309411/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

An in depth discussion regarding those can be found can be found here
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?104816-Early-Ames-And-Other-s-Militia-NCO-Patterns

A more iconic display of the French symbology is that of Pallas Athena, which was shown on a sword counter guard you posted at the beginning of the thread. Found on several other sword forms in Europe, the examples we see on American eagle pommels have been somewhat attributed to West Point officer swords. However, it is highly speculative, considering the numbers of them that have surfaced. Usually with little of their silver wash remaining.

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

It is important to differentiate between the Roman centurion and knight helmet pommels.

I'm not sure I understand which one is which from the examples you've posted...?

 

[Private Watkins]

I hope you don't mind me asking another question or two... (I feel like I've got a real expert here...), would this Horstman fall into the pre-war, militia category...?

Thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us...!!!

 

[Glen_C]

I'm not sure I understand which one is which from the examples you've posted...?

Everything posted thus far has been a centurion helmet, vs a medieval knight helmet. Centurion helmets continued to be used on a lot of fraternal swords. I point this out, as most don't understand what a Roman centurion helmet looked like, with all these then regarded as knights helmets (when they are truly not medieval knight's helmets).

I hope you don't mind me asking another question or two... (I feel like I've got a real expert here...), would this Horstman fall into the pre-war, militia category...?

Thank you very much for sharing your expertise with us...!!!

Prewar presentation and supplied to Horstmann by Ames.

Cheers

GC

 

[adraco4]

Eagle Head sword that my great great great grandfather in 43rd NC brought back from the war. He was a Sargent, so I doubt it was issued to him. Probably a battlefield souvenir.

 

[Private Watkins]

View attachment 76469 Eagle Head sword that my great great great grandfather in 43rd NC brought back from the war. He was a Sargent, so I doubt it was issued to him. Probably a battlefield souvenir.

That's really cool, thanks for sharing it. With the connection back to your ggg-grandfather, that is truly a treasure!!

It looks like a pre-war militia type sword, so it may have been given to him by one of his elders as he went off to war, or as you indicate it could very well be a battlefield pickup. I would agree that it would not seem likely to have been "issued" to him by the army... although there are experts far more knowledgeable than I am on this site so I'd gladly defer to their opinions.

 

[Glen_C]

Interesting sword. I'd love to see more pictures of it, particularly full length with the sword laiid next to the scabbard. Are there any letters oor marks at the base of the blade? There may be unseen marks under the guard langets. If you can get pictures of both sides of the hilt and from both front and back views of the hilt, I may be able to narrow down some other information. It predates the ACW by some decades

Cheers

GC

 

[adraco4]

Interesting sword. I'd love to see more pictures of it, particularly full length with the sword laiid next to the scabbard. Are there any letters oor marks at the base of the blade? There may be unseen marks under the guard langets. If you can get pictures of both sides of the hilt and from both front and back views of the hilt, I may be able to narrow down some other information. It predates the ACW by some decades

Cheers

GC

thanks Glen C and Watkins. The sword is at my dad's house, but I'm heading there this weekend anyway, so I can take more pictures while I'm there. Here's a few more that I already have.

I'll try to have a close up of the blade next to the scabbard this Sunday. Thanks again for the help. This sword is a treasured family heirloom, so knowing more about it would be great.

 

[adraco4]

Got to my dad's house earlier than I thought. You can see that we are missing the handgrip on one side, and my grandad welded the hilt back together in one spot. Other than that, it's in pretty good condition.

Will post more pictures soon.

 

[James N.]

I'm not sure I understand which one is which from the examples you've posted...?

This is a centurion pommel NCO sword in my collection, likely post-war:

 

[Glen_C]

Hi James

I would say your sword may well be 1860s but there are differences of opinion. My own supposition is that the shield guard began during the war years to distinguish them as federal states . Before the war they were "all American". The rest of the guard also known on some of these 1860s types. My initial interests of them began with the short blade 1840s Ames examples and all but two of my collection shown above are Ames examples. Tim Graham, the major respondent in the thread I linked has shown examples like yours that he dates back to before the war, so I just don't know.

At any rate, these can be a generally inexpensive entry to collecting swords, with lots of room to grow in interest. While I have swords of later years, I tend to concentrate on the earlier decades.

Thanks for posting your's up!

Cheers

GC