Eagle Head Swords...

[Glen_C]

View attachment 76740 View attachment 76739 View attachment 76737 View attachment 76744 Got to my dad's house earlier than I thought. You can see that we are missing the handgrip on one side, and my grandad welded the hilt back together in one spot. Other than that, it's in pretty good condition.

Will post more pictures soon.

Thanks for the additional photos. If you can capture some of the blade and scabbard decoration, it will help. I have to say I am still stumped at the moment I am leaning towards Berger (Alsace/Paris), or Helvig (Solingen/Alsace) as the source and earlier than the lighter generic brass scabbards. The pearl very unusual for a saber and the addition with the extra grip divider should pop out in my books (more, which I still need to look through). There are other aspects that are beyond the later generic ferrule and scabbard bands. The backstrap and forward grip divider also decoration I may be able to match to a given cutler/maker. I don't know why I keep going back to maybe LePage but his stuff just otherwise different and first empire (pre 1812). I need to sit with a couple of more titles and sites, as your's seems so familiar from somewhere.

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

Hi James

I would say your sword may well be 1860s but there are differences of opinion. My own supposition is that the shield guard began during the war years to distinguish them as federal states . Before the war they were "all American". The rest of the guard also known on some of these 1860s types. My initial interests of them began with the short blade 1840s Ames examples and all but two of my collection shown above are Ames examples. Tim Graham, the major respondent in the thread I linked has shown examples like yours that he dates back to before the war, so I just don't know.

At any rate, these can be a generally inexpensive entry to collecting swords, with lots of room to grow in interest. While I have swords of later years, I tend to concentrate on the earlier decades.

Thanks for posting your's up!

Cheers

GC

Very interesting GC, I love hearing your opinions on these beauties... thanks!

 

[Private Watkins]

Thanks for the additional photos. If you can capture some of the blade and scabbard decoration, it will help. I have to say I am still stumped at the moment I am leaning towards Berger (Alsace/Paris), or Helvig (Solingen/Alsace) as the source and earlier than the lighter generic brass scabbards. The pearl very unusual for a saber and the addition with the extra grip divider should pop out in my books (more, which I still need to look through). There are other aspects that are beyond the later generic ferrule and scabbard bands. The backstrap and forward grip divider also decoration I may be able to match to a given cutler/maker. I don't know why I keep going back to maybe LePage but his stuff just otherwise different and first empire (pre 1812). I need to sit with a couple of more titles and sites, as your's seems so familiar from somewhere.

Cheers

GC

GC,
I have wondered if the "eagle on globe" shield guard on this guy was "Federal" or "New York State Militia"...? would love to hear your thoughts...

 

[adraco4]

Thanks for the info Glen c! Here are some more pictures.

 

[adraco4]

And a few more.

 

[adraco4]

View attachment 76815

Last few.

 

[Glen_C]

GC,
I have wondered if the "eagle on globe" shield guard on this guy was "Federal" or "New York State Militia"...? would love to hear your thoughts...

View attachment 76794

View attachment 76795

A bit coincidental and maybe seeing what one wants to see. Or, maybe trying too hard to see what one wants to see. The federal eagle is common to all states, is it not? Maybe we should assume the sword was meant for Nebraska, as the "corn-husker" state. (not).

Refer back to my comment on the number of stars. Decoration is often just that, decoration. It's a bit like why would a car have contrasting colors on their fender flares

However, there are grounded eagles that can have different meanings but look at a piece first as a whole.

Cheers

GC

 

[Glen_C]

Thanks for the added pictures. The word Warranted is found on both sides of the channel but the blue&gilt blade decoration, in this case, does point to the continent. On the side of the blade under the guard langets and under that arch may be a stamped name. I am thinking it may be Berger and Paris. Probably hard to see because of where it is. Look also under the word Warranted but I think your's will be tucked away under the guard langet.

Your sword may predate the war of 1812 and I think no later than the 1820s. The oak leaves and balls on a stalk (acorns) on the scabbard bands are found on later 1830s generic grip ferrules. That repeated design actually goes back some centuries.. My later sabre has A.Berger on the side in plain view and the fittings much plainer. Your blade decoration also of an earlier type and has no E Pluribus Unum, eagle, etc.

At least these are my thoughts and there are other's as familiar or more so than I.

Cheers

GC

 

[adraco4]

Thanks for the info glen c! Really appreciate it!

 

[James N.]

...I would say your sword may well be 1860s but there are differences of opinion. My own supposition is that the shield guard began during the war years to distinguish them as federal states . Before the war they were "all American". The rest of the guard also known on some of these 1860s types. My initial interests of them began with the short blade 1840s Ames examples and all but two of my collection shown above are Ames examples. Tim Graham, the major respondent in the thread I linked has shown examples like yours that he dates back to before the war, so I just don't know.

Here's a full-length shot of it alongside my Ames musicians' and NCO swords; if it were a wartime (or earlier) production, I think it would've had a more robust blade along the order of those. I once owned one by Ames that had a then-obsolete M.1841 naval officer's blade like some of these eagleheads on it! I'm sure that one was made soon after the adoption of the then-new M.1852 in order to use an otherwise useless but still perfectly serviceable blade.

 

[Glen_C]

RE the centurions

I tend to agree with the width factor as "likely" helping to date some but as I mention, Tim Graham in the linked thread has had dozens apart, so I keep his findings and thoughts in mind.

If you look at my collection pictures, you may note the one to our right next to the urn pommel example has an nco blade and the one next to that on the right, a musician blade. The longer nco example Horstmann and the musician blade example Ames. Also note the narrower reeding on the grips of both the example with an urn pommel and the nco bladed one. The rest there are all Ames, the shorter blade examples on our left are likelyfrom the 1840s.

Whether the two spadroon bladed examples are far later made up of surplus, I may never know. I have found simple centurion pommel examples with a wide variety of blades, including the general officer "broadsword" blades of 1832/1833. The Horstmann with the urn pommel and foliate langets has been associated by some collectors and scholars with the German American Turnvereines/Turners. As that pommel was used pre ACW for the army engineers, I have to list the few I have encountered as plausible prewar. One thing I am fairly convinced of is the typical militia nco sword went to the 25" blade length and blades starting to narrow before the ACW (albeit the Ames examples seem to have maintained the width the longest).

A lot of private purchase existed before and after the ACW, so nothing really surprises me past the 1840s/1850s. Horstmann and Ames had huge stockpiles of parts to hilt on a whim.

A bit of text from Horace Greeley published in 1872 regarding Horstmann

"We examine a magazine of some thousands of blades, of forty or fifty different patterns and sizes, waiting to be set and finished; the rooms where the hilts are made, and the engraving, gilding, chasing, etc., executed; we wonder at the infinity of small fixtures used; we begin to count up the different pieces of a completed sword, and find that there are between thirty and forty in the sword and scabbard alone, "

Somewhere around page 790 or so

https://books.google.com/books?id=6UQaAAAAYAAJ

Google books rule!

Cheers

GC

Amongst other documents I have uploaded is an older book on Horstmann, little sword related but a good book
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9AOFMA8y3ODSXdOX0xNSlZFNm8/view?usp=sharing

Other documents on my drive are from the American Society of Arms Collectors. My mess as I see it
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9AOFMA8y3ODN2hkZzNEOURZY3M&usp=sharing

An archive of all the old ASoAC bulletins
https://web.archive.org/web/2011101...societyofarmscollectors.org/bulletinindex.htm


Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

RE the centurions

I tend to agree with the width factor as "likely" helping to date some but as I mention, Tim Graham in the linked thread has had dozens apart, so I keep his findings and thoughts in mind.

If you look at my collection pictures, you may note the one to our right next to the urn pommel example has an nco blade and the one next to that on the right, a musician blade. The longer nco example Horstmann and the musician blade example Ames. Also note the narrower reeding on the grips of both the example with an urn pommel and the nco bladed one. The rest there are all Ames, the shorter blade examples on our left are likelyfrom the 1840s.

Whether the two spadroon bladed examples are far later made up of surplus, I may never know. I have found simple centurion pommel examples with a wide variety of blades, including the general officer "broadsword" blades of 1832/1833. The Horstmann with the urn pommel and foliate langets has been associated by some collectors and scholars with the German American Turnvereines/Turners. As that pommel was used pre ACW for the army engineers, I have to list the few I have encountered as plausible prewar. One thing I am fairly convinced of is the typical militia nco sword went to the 25" blade length and blades starting to narrow before the ACW (albeit the Ames examples seem to have maintained the width the longest).

A lot of private purchase existed before and after the ACW, so nothing really surprises me past the 1840s/1850s. Horstmann and Ames had huge stockpiles of parts to hilt on a whim.

A bit of text from Horace Greeley published in 1872 regarding Horstmann

"We examine a magazine of some thousands of blades, of forty or fifty different patterns and sizes, waiting to be set and finished; the rooms where the hilts are made, and the engraving, gilding, chasing, etc., executed; we wonder at the infinity of small fixtures used; we begin to count up the different pieces of a completed sword, and find that there are between thirty and forty in the sword and scabbard alone, "

Somewhere around page 790 or so

https://books.google.com/books?id=6UQaAAAAYAAJ

Google books rule!

Cheers

GC

Amongst other documents I have uploaded is an older book on Horstmann, little sword related but a good book
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9AOFMA8y3ODSXdOX0xNSlZFNm8/view?usp=sharing

Other documents on my drive are from the American Society of Arms Collectors. My mess as I see it
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9AOFMA8y3ODN2hkZzNEOURZY3M&usp=sharing

An archive of all the old ASoAC bulletins
https://web.archive.org/web/2011101...societyofarmscollectors.org/bulletinindex.htm


Cheers

GC

Thanks again for all of the great info GC... Recently I encountered a variant of the "crapping eagle" that I hadn't seen before, and am interested to learn more about it. It is said to have Ames markings, a 31 inch blade, total length of 37 3/4 inches, and the eagle has a shield on its breast with 15 stars:

Wish I had better pics but this is all I've got for now. I've browsed through the google files you provided, and thought it looked pretty similar to the one pictured on the far left:

For that matter, the one second from the left looks very similar to the first sitting eagle I posted...

So if you don't mind, I had just a few questions...

1. Is the book pictured above American Swords from the Philip Medicus Collection, by Mowbray/Flayderman? Seems like might be a good book to get, but wanted to make sure that's the right one before I tried to find a copy. I have the Peterson book already, but didn't find in it any examples of the first variant of sitting eagle above (far left in the book plate), only the second variant.
2. Would you generally date both of these sitting eagles from around 1840's - 1850's, and would thus consider them pre-Civil War militia swords?
3. Is one variant of the sitting eagle any more rare or desirable than the other?
4. Are the sitting eagles any more desirable or rare than say the centurions or eagle heads... or no difference? I only ask because it seems that I don't see them very often (which may mean nothing), and I didn't seem to see many when looking through your google files (maybe I just missed them...).
5. Any thoughts on maker/seller, notwithstanding the stated Ames markings...?
6. Do you have pics and/or info, other threads, etc. of any similar sitting eagles in your files... I have spent quite a bit of enjoyable time browsing through your files, but must admit there's a lot there so am not sure if I covered everything.

Thank you again, and again hope you don't mind me asking some questions... I really appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge with us, it's all really impressive.

 

[Private Watkins]

Just for fun I also will post this Centurion, which seems to be very similar to #116, "Militia Staff Officer's Sword, 1840-1860" in Peterson's book The American Sword.

 

[Glen_C]

So if you don't mind, I had just a few questions...

1. Is the book pictured above American Swords from the Philip Medicus Collection, by Mowbray/Flayderman? Seems like might be a good book to get, but wanted to make sure that's the right one before I tried to find a copy. I have the Peterson book already, but didn't find in it any examples of the first variant of sitting eagle above (far left in the book plate), only the second variant.
2. Would you generally date both of these sitting eagles from around 1840's - 1850's, and would thus consider them pre-Civil War militia swords?
3. Is one variant of the sitting eagle any more rare or desirable than the other?
4. Are the sitting eagles any more desirable or rare than say the centurions or eagle heads...?
5. Do you have pics and/or info, other threads, etc. of any similar sitting eagles in your files... I have spent quite a bit of enjoyable time browsing through your files, but must admit there's a lot there so am not sure if I covered everything.

1. Yes, the book pages are from the Medicus collection book and it is a good supplement to other titles. Don't buy a book specifically to research one sword but rather buy books that will be of further use. The title belongs on any shelf regarding American swords because it shows swords from the colonial era to the 20th century. If eagle pommel swords interest you, I believe I may have already mentioned the elder Mowbray's book on the early years.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0917218361/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

My library is far from complete. Others have been at it much longer than I.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?90613-Books-we-all-have

You may enjoy participating at Sword Forum International

2. Dating can be tricky but generally so, the 1840s-1850s. Most of these certainly post Mexican War.

3.-4. Desirability is really in the eye of the beholder. Condition is everything, really. This is so whether a sitting eagle or eagle head pommel. I prefer and mostly collect/study the eagle head pommel swords well before the 1840s-1850s. Others may like the fancy presentation and dress swords. True of the centurions as well. I am more drawn to the older simpler nco swords than more elaborate examples. I know a few that would trade their pristine sitting eagle for another the may want more. It all depends on a subjective value. Some collect primarily presentation swords they can research regarding the recipient.

5. This thread comes to mind
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?109231-Unusual-Eagle-pummel-American-Militia-Sword

Thanks for your interest.

Keep in mind that my files are not anything more than visual notes for me. Some are misplaced and some even purposefully for comparisons. I may seem authoritative on the subject but as mentioned before, my main focus is from the revolution through the war of 1812. I learn more all the time.

A later sword I might salivate over owning would be the Widmann marines sergeant sword currently on Ebay. Ridiculously priced, imo but someone might grab it at $4,500 (not me). My one Widmann in in that file folder shown with the red door background and in the Widmann folder with a blue background. I overpaid, at about $300. A mundane example with no scabbard but it fits my niche of an any man's sword. Oddly enough, it was appreciated and noted at a show by someone that knows nothing of American swords.

Cheers

GC

My baby bargain late Widmann

 

[Glen_C]

Just for fun I also will post this Centurion, which seems to be very similar to #116, "Militia Staff Officer's Sword, 1840-1860" in Peterson's book The American Sword.
View attachment 79534

View attachment 79535

I have an Ames example that is a bit tired. Missing its chain, scabbard and bone/ivory shell (it may have been silver sheet instead); with just the wood core grip remaining. I like it. These are most often the left over 1831 general officer swords blades. Good functional blades.

That's me, another bottom scraping bargain.

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

Great,

1. Yes, the book pages are from the Medicus collection book and it is a good supplement to other titles. Don't buy a book specifically to research one sword but rather buy books that will be of further use. The title belongs on any shelf regarding American swords because it shows swords from the colonial era to the 20th century. If eagle pommel swords interest you, I believe I may have already mentioned the elder Mowbray's book on the early years.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0917218361/?tag=civilwartalkc-20

My library is far from complete. Others have been at it much longer than I.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?90613-Books-we-all-have

You may enjoy participating at Sword Forum International

2. Dating can be tricky but generally so, the 1840s-1850s. Most of these certainly post Mexican War.

3.-4. Desirability is really in the eye of the beholder. Condition is everything, really. This is so whether a sitting eagle or eagle head pommel. I prefer and mostly collect/study the eagle head pommel swords well before the 1840s-1850s. Others may like the fancy presentation and dress swords. True of the centurions as well. I am more drawn to the older simpler nco swords than more elaborate examples. I know a few that would trade their pristine sitting eagle for another the may want more. It all depends on a subjective value. Some collect primarily presentation swords they can research regarding the recipient.

5. This thread comes to mind
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?109231-Unusual-Eagle-pummel-American-Militia-Sword

Thanks for your interest.

Keep in mind that my files are not anything more than visual notes for me. Some are misplaced and some even purposefully for comparisons. I may seem authoritative on the subject but as mentioned before, my main focus is from the revolution through the war of 1812. I learn more all the time.

A later sword I might salivate over owning would be the Widmann marines sergeant sword currently on Ebay. Ridiculously priced, imo but someone might grab it at $4,500 (not me). My one Widmann in in that file folder shown with the red door background and in the Widmann folder with a blue background. I overpaid, at about $300. A mundane example with no scabbard but it fits my niche of an any man's sword. Oddly enough, it was appreciated and noted at a show by someone that knows nothing of American swords.

Cheers

GC

My baby bargain late Widmann
View attachment 79554

Great, thanks again so much for the info... what a vast, great field of study!

 

[Private Watkins]

It is important to differentiate between the Roman centurion and knight helmet pommels.

Hi GC, what would you call this style pommel...is this a Roman centurion?

 

[Glen_C]

More or less, yes. A dress sword suited for many. However, with the palm tree, likely a South Carolina presentation sword, post Mexican War.

Cheers

GC

 

[Private Watkins]

Was reminded of this thread when I saw this dagguerotype... the clarity of the eagle head in this image is amazing...

 

[Private Watkins]

And here's what I would call a subspecies of the eagle head sword... the eagle guard sword; a really beautiful spread winged eagle on this guy: