Confederate War Aims

[Stone in the wall]

limited and cherry picked timeline. Lol. Expected.

Not cherry picked, starts where Lincoln takes command.

 

[Stone in the wall]

This answer's the question of pre-Lincoln acts-of-war by the Confederacy HOW?

Federal arsenals were for funishing of the state's militia, mostly containing obsolete weapons anyway. Forts were for protection of that state, and they were put to use to do just that. Southern tax dollars paid for them as well as Northern.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Federal arsenals were for funishing of the state's militia, mostly containing obsolete weapons anyway. Forts were for protection of that state, and they were put to use to do just that. Southern tax dollars paid for them as well as Northern.

Regardless, they were Federal properties, not the states'.

 

[Stone in the wall]

White Southerners ended up with another century of **** codified in law. Black southerners didn't get much, but confederate apologists never really take them into account, do they.

Pennsylvania set a fine example. Taking the vote away from free blacks (1836) or allowing them to sit on juries. If you know your Pennsylvania history please tell us about Fields Cook (1876).

 

[GwilymT]

Pennsylvania set a fine example. Taking the vote away from free blacks (1836) or allowing them to sit on juries. If you know your Pennsylvania history please tell us about Fields Cook (1876).

This thread is about confederate war aims. The main aim of the CSA was the continued subjugation of the African race in their territory.

If you'd like to discuss the African American experience in PA, feel free to start a thread on that subject.

 

[Rebforever]

This thread is about confederate war aims. The main aim of the CSA was the continued subjugation of the African race in their territory.

If you'd like to discuss the African American experience in PA, feel free to start a thread on that subject.

You went off thread first. He responded. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CSA Today]

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

Rhea was quoting actual Secessionists using the fear of racial miscegenation to recruit non slave owning whites to support Secession.
Leftyhunter

No because Lincoln didn't initiate hostilities he merely did his duty to suppress an unlawful re

Per President Andrew Johnson the ACW ended in 1866.
Leftyhunter

Not Lincoln's fault Lincoln had no choice but to invoke the Milita Act. If people in Virginia chose to rebel then that's there choice and should not complain if the suffer the consequences.
Leftyhunter

The finger pointer's ensuring would be more convincing if they set a good example themselves before pointing fingers at other people. ​
"A meddling Yankee troubles himself about every body's matters except his own and repents of everybody's sins except his own." ​
General Daniel Harvey Hill ​

 

[Rebforever]

You specifically stated: "It was Lincoln that needed a war."

Lincoln needed the war for his "impost" per his first inaugural speech.
He was not going to let the South go under any circumstances.

 

[unionblue]

When did Congress declare War?

This answer's the question of pre-Lincoln acts-of-war by the Confederacy HOW?

Federal arsenals were for funishing of the state's militia, mostly containing obsolete weapons anyway. Forts were for protection of that state, and they were put to use to do just that. Southern tax dollars paid for them as well as Northern.

So, the theft of government property, the property of the entire country, was OK to steal? So, the theft of the US mint, coining money for the entire country, was OK? Did it belong to the states too? Forts built to defend the entire nation were OK to steal for an the use in an illegal rebellion?

No, @Stone in the wall , theft, pure and simple, way before it was "Lincoln's war" or anyone else's. so giving it a name that has no meaning is simply a form of excuse for that theft.

You're justifying theft, not reporting accurate history.

Unionblue

 

[Rebforever]

Your absolutely correct Southeners of African descent had to fight long and hard for their rights in the South.
Leftyhunter

Then why did it take 100 years for the Black Americans to have the same privileges as white Americans. You can't lay that on just the South.

 

[uaskme]

Preserving racial purity was cited by Secessionists has a reason for Secession. Obviously Southern states took the issue of Miscegenation very seriously because no Southern state voluntarily repealed it's Miscegenation Laws.
Leftyhunter

We get it, you told us half dozen times.

I never said the South didn't take it seriously.

Some repeatedly try to claim the North wanted Equality and Free Love. Murdering Natives, rejecting Black emigration, banning Chinese, Colonizing Northern Free Blacks, is neither.

 

[Lost Cause]

Thank you for the source and link. I'm fairly familiar with this. I misunderstood what you wrote and took your comment to mean that Lincoln personally was involved in a between-the-lines cotton trade deal where he profited from the transaction.

From my understanding, there is little written directly linking Lincoln to profit taking from cotton transactions. Of course, his policies supported these transactions.

Illinois Senator Browning did write in his diary "a scheme of which Lincoln, Singleton, Judge Hughes of the Court of Claims, Senator Morgan, myself and some others, hope to make some money, and do the country some service."

 

[Fairfield]

Federal arsenals were for funishing of the state's militia, mostly containing obsolete weapons anyway. Forts were for protection of that state, and they were put to use to do just that. Southern tax dollars paid for them as well as Northern.

And the ships?

Forts, arsenals and ships--Northern money subsidizing the South. Was compensation paid? Taking someone else's property has a nasty name.

 

[Copperhead-mi]

From my understanding, there is little written directly linking Lincoln to profit taking from cotton transactions. Of course, his policies supported these transactions.

Illinois Senator Browning did write in his diary "a scheme of which Lincoln, Singleton, Judge Hughes of the Court of Claims, Senator Morgan, myself and some others, hope to make some money, and do the country some service."

My bold:
"As Browning wrote in his diary, he discussed the proposed venture with Lincoln, pointing out that this was 'a scheme out of which he [Lincoln], Singleton, Judge Hughes of the Court of Claims, Senator Morgan, myself and some others, hope to make some money, and do the country some service.' Lincoln approved of the venture and said, 'he wanted to get out all [the produce] he could, and send in all the Green backs he could in exchange' [Browning, 1933, Vol. II, pp. 1, 5]. Lincoln gave Singleton and Hughes the necessary passes to go through Union lines to Richmond and to return with southern goods. This incident is interesting in that it is the only venture that implies that Lincoln might make some money, but there is no other evidence that Lincoln ever profited from the cotton trade. Browning believed that the trade was harmless, especially when Greenbacks were used in payment; indeed, he believed that the trade made southerners more 'interested in [the Federal] government and [becoming] its friend,' leading to demoralization. Thus, Browning, like most traders, donned the flimsy cloak of respectability afforded by the administration's announcements regarding the nation's need for cotton, thereby warding off criticisms of their trade activities. Ultimately Singleton's efforts were futile, as the produce he contracted for was burned in the final days of the war [Browning, 1933, Vol. II, pp. 10-12, 25-26]."
Surdam, David G. "Traders or Traitors: Northern Cotton Trading During the Civil War." Business and Economic History 28, no. 2 (1999): pg. 307.

 

[Rebforever]

And the ships?

Forts, arsenals and ships--Northern money subsidizing the South. Was compensation paid? Taking someone else's property has a nasty name.

Some of those Forts were not used and the Confederacy offered to pay for material items.

 

[Lost Cause]

My bold:
"As Browning wrote in his diary, he discussed the proposed venture with Lincoln, pointing out that this was 'a scheme out of which he [Lincoln], Singleton, Judge Hughes of the Court of Claims, Senator Morgan, myself and some others, hope to make some money, and do the country some service.' Lincoln approved of the venture and said, 'he wanted to get out all [the produce] he could, and send in all the Green backs he could in exchange' [Browning, 1933, Vol. II, pp. 1, 5]. Lincoln gave Singleton and Hughes the necessary passes to go through Union lines to Richmond and to return with southern goods. This incident is interesting in that it is the only venture that implies that Lincoln might make some money, but there is no other evidence that Lincoln ever profited from the cotton trade. Browning believed that the trade was harmless, especially when Greenbacks were used in payment; indeed, he believed that the trade made southerners more 'interested in [the Federal] government and [becoming] its friend,' leading to demoralization. Thus, Browning, like most traders, donned the flimsy cloak of respectability afforded by the administration's announcements regarding the nation's need for cotton, thereby warding off criticisms of their trade activities. Ultimately Singleton's efforts were futile, as the produce he contracted for was burned in the final days of the war [Browning, 1933, Vol. II, pp. 10-12, 25-26]."
Surdam, David G. "Traders or Traitors: Northern Cotton Trading During the Civil War." Business and Economic History 28, no. 2 (1999): pg. 307.

From the same author indicating Lincoln benefited indirectly, invoking where there is smoke there is fire:

"Although the system seemed well designed, it was not adroitly implemented. Treasury Agent Hanson Alexander Risley was less-than-diligent about checking whether prospective traders actually controlled or owned cotton in the South. He vetted Lincoln's friends, Leonard Swett, Provost-marshal Ward Hill Lamon (both from Illinois), and Samuel Noble, a Georgia planter, who claimed to own tens of thousands of bales of cotton spread throughout the South. How Lamon and Swett, who had never dealt in cotton before, could possibly control large amounts of cotton was never questioned. New York's Thurlow Weed, whom Lincoln needed as an ally, also vouched for some prospective traders. Traders coveted a signed permit from Honest Abe himself. Given the business mores of the time, it is not surprising that many men, mesmerized by the potentially lucrative legal trade, exploited their contacts with Honest Abe. Friends of Abe or friends of friends of Abe often received the coveted trade permits. Lincoln, himself, approved all of the explicit requests made by his friends and family."

David Surdam, "Traders or Traitors: Northern Cotton Trading During the Civil War." Business and Economic History 28, no. 2 (Winter 1999): 301-12.

Furthermore, the guns and ammunition for cotton trade dealings were of particular concern thereby costing additional lives and lengthening the war. From an 1865 congressional inquiry:

"The committee determined that trade with the Confederacy "…is believed to have led to the prolongation of the War and cost the country thousand of lives and millions upon millions of treasure." Historian Sellew Roberts estimates it lengthened the War by a year.

Northern goods & arms for Southern cotton | Southern Economy & Tariffs Promoted Disunion

Wow, so The Confederates got meat for cotton? Can you qoute a source? Whoops read it again & see my error... Sorry.

civilwartalk.com

 

[Copperhead-mi]

From the same author indicating Lincoln benefited indirectly, invoking where there is smoke there is fire:

"Although the system seemed well designed, it was not adroitly implemented. Treasury Agent Hanson Alexander Risley was less-than-diligent about checking whether prospective traders actually controlled or owned cotton in the South. He vetted Lincoln's friends, Leonard Swett, Provost-marshal Ward Hill Lamon (both from Illinois), and Samuel Noble, a Georgia planter, who claimed to own tens of thousands of bales of cotton spread throughout the South. How Lamon and Swett, who had never dealt in cotton before, could possibly control large amounts of cotton was never questioned. New York's Thurlow Weed, whom Lincoln needed as an ally, also vouched for some prospective traders. Traders coveted a signed permit from Honest Abe himself. Given the business mores of the time, it is not surprising that many men, mesmerized by the potentially lucrative legal trade, exploited their contacts with Honest Abe. Friends of Abe or friends of friends of Abe often received the coveted trade permits. Lincoln, himself, approved all of the explicit requests made by his friends and family."

David Surdam, "Traders or Traitors: Northern Cotton Trading During the Civil War." Business and Economic History 28, no. 2 (Winter 1999): 301-12.

Furthermore, the guns and ammunition for cotton trade dealings were of particular concern thereby costing additional lives and lengthening the war. From an 1865 congressional inquiry:

"The committee determined that trade with the Confederacy "…is believed to have led to the prolongation of the War and cost the country thousand of lives and millions upon millions of treasure." Historian Sellew Roberts estimates it lengthened the War by a year.

Northern goods & arms for Southern cotton | Southern Economy & Tariffs Promoted Disunion

Wow, so The Confederates got meat for cotton? Can you qoute a source? Whoops read it again & see my error... Sorry.

civilwartalk.com

One thing for sure where there was fire in the Lincoln household was with his wife Mary:

Pecuniary greed certainly motivated Singleton and his fellow speculators, who anticipated making enormous profits on the $7 million worth of cotton and tobacco he had contracted to buy in Richmond. At the White House on February 5, when he asked help in getting these goods through Union lines, Lincoln, according to Browning's dairy, "expressed himself pleased with what was done—said he wanted to get out all [cotton etc.] he could, and send in all the Greenbacks he could in exchange, and he would do for us [Singleton, Browning and their associates] all that he could."174 Shortly thereafter, Lincoln wrote to Grant requesting that Singleton be permitted to bring "a large amount of Southern produce" through the lines. "For its bearing on our finances I would be glad for this to be done if it can be without injuriously disturbing your military operations, or supplying the enemy. I wish you to be judge and master on these points."175 Grant balked, alleging that Singleton was carrying out "a deep laid plan for making millions" that might "sacrifice every interest of the country to succeed."176 Lincoln promptly authorized the commanding general to cancel all trade permits within his department. When the Confederates set fire to Richmond as they abandoned it in early April, all of Singleton's purchases were destroyed.

As Forbes alleged, some cotton speculators did wield significant political influence with the administration. A conspicuous example was Simeon Draper, collector of customs in New York and a staunch ally of Weed and Seward. After playing a key role in carrying the Empire State for Lincoln in 1864, Draper wished to become the agent selling the huge supply of cotton that fell into Union hands when Sherman captured Savannah on December 22. Draper was given that lucrative commission after paying Mary Lincoln a $20,000 bribe, according to David Davis.177

(In February 1864, it was reported that Draper had already received $50,000 from the administration in auction fees. In September 1864, Draper pleaded with Secretary of the Treasury Fessenden to be allowed to continue as the officer in the New York customhouse auctioning consignments of property seized in the South. Mary Lincoln was in touch with Draper, urging him to reinstate a Mr. Martin to a clerkship in the customhouse. Draper traveled to Savannah to oversee the auction of cotton there.)178

Gideon Welles was "sickened" at "the idea of sending such a man [as Draper] on such a mission," which he predicted "will be a swindle." The navy secretary felt certain that a "ring will be formed for the purchase of the cotton, regardless of public or private rights."179
Michael Burlingame, Lincoln: A Life, Volume Two, pg. 764

 

[Stone in the wall]

This answer's the question of pre-Lincoln acts-of-war by the Confederacy HOW?


So, the theft of government property, the property of the entire country, was OK to steal? So, the theft of the US mint, coining money for the entire country, was OK? Did it belong to the states too? Forts built to defend the entire nation were OK to steal for an the use in an illegal rebellion?

No, @Stone in the wall , theft, pure and simple, way before it was "Lincoln's war" or anyone else's. so giving it a name that has no meaning is simply a form of excuse for that theft.

You're justifying theft, not reporting accurate history.

Unionblue

Even in a divorce the couple splits the dishes.

 

[Stone in the wall]

And the ships?

Forts, arsenals and ships--Northern money subsidizing the South. Was compensation paid? Taking someone else's property has a nasty name.

What "Northern money"? If the northern states had had money they wouldn't have needed to put tariffs on imported goods. so that they could push their high priced-low quality goods on the southern people.

 

[Fairfield]

What "Northern money"? If the northern states had had money they wouldn't have needed to put tariffs on imported goods. so that they could push their high priced-low quality goods on the southern people.

Quoting you: "Southern tax dollars paid for them as well as Northern". Or have you changed your mind?