Confederate War Aims

[leftyhunter]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

 

[Fairfield]

This is a good point. Their ultimate war aim was peace. It was Lincoln that needed a war. If there was no war, then the South would just leave and the country was split in two. It is easy to overlook that simple fact.

That doesn't seem very likely. Ft. Sumter was just the last of several CSA assaults on federal property. How can Mr. Lincoln be blamed when CSA had been established before he took office?

 

[Stone in the wall]

That doesn't seem very likely. Ft. Sumter was just the last of several CSA assaults on federal property. How can Mr. Lincoln be blamed when CSA had been established before he took office?

Time Line:
March 4th Lincolns Inaguration
April 12th Sumpter
April 15th Lincolns call for troops to invade Virginia
April 17th Virginia's secession
April 18th Virginia takes Harpers Ferry
July 25th Congress Finally declares war
So it is Mr Lincolns War

 

[unionblue]

The intent of the Confederate govt. was not to overthrow the US govt., but to separate from it. The reasons for the invasions of the north during the war have been previously discussed in this forum in detail. Primarily, above all, being the pursuit of peace with a Confederate victory, thereby a separate nation. Certainly that nation being free of influence from persistent Yankee agitators.

You cannot cut off a persons leg or arm and say the loss will not effect him.

It is the same with a nation.

 

[unionblue]

Time Line:
March 4th Lincolns Inaguration
April 12th Sumpter
April 15th Lincolns call for troops to invade Virginia
April 17th Virginia's secession
April 18th Virginia takes Harpers Ferry
July 25th Congress Finally declares war
So it is Mr Lincolns War

No, @Stone in the wall , not when you have omitted all of the Confederacy's war-like acts before Lincoln's swearing in. I'm sure you seen the list of such acts, some done before some states even seceded and were still in the Union. It's been posted on this forum before in multiple threads.

So how is it "Lincoln's War" before the man was even President?

 

[unionblue]

Independence.

Treason and theft.

 

[leftyhunter]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

Gordon Rhea and I were speaking of non-slave owners, and why they fought. So are we now flipping and talking about words of the "actual sessionists"?

Rhea was quoting actual Secessionists using the fear of racial miscegenation to recruit non slave owning whites to support Secession.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

Gordon Rhea and I were speaking of non-slave owners, and why they fought. So are we now flipping and talking about words of the "actual sessionists"?

Rhea was quoting actual Secessionists using the fear of racial miscegenation to recruit non slave owning whites to support Secession.
Leftyhunter

 

[Fairfield]

Time Line:
March 4th Lincolns Inaguration
April 12th Sumpter
April 15th Lincolns call for troops to invade Virginia
April 17th Virginia's secession
April 18th Virginia takes Harpers Ferry
July 25th Congress Finally declares war
So it is Mr Lincolns War

Afraid not because CSA was established on February 8th. So it is not Lincoln's war.

Also preceding Mr. Lincoln's inauguration were:
The election & inaugural of Jefferson Davis
"Cornerstone Speech"
Seizure of 15+ properties and ships

 

[leftyhunter]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

Gordon Rhea and I were speaking of non-slave owners, and why they fought. So are we now flipping and talking about words of the "actual sessionists"?

Rhea was quoting actual Secessionists using the fear of racial miscegenation to recruit non slave owning whites to support Secession.
Leftyhunter

 

[jackt62]

It was Lincoln that needed a war. If there was no war, then the South would just leave and the country was split in two. It is easy to overlook that simple fact.

Here is what Lincoln had to say on that subject, in his first inaugural address on March 4, 1861:

"In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The Government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the Government, while I shall have the most solemn one to preserve, protect, and defend it."

 

[unionblue]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

Problem solved?

Still looking for the Confederate embassy so I can get a travel permit to anywhere within the nation of the Confederacy. Oh, wait...

"Through this great nation common blood flows. What man is there here that is not of a blood, flowing--meandering--perhaps through every state in the Union?...We are one people in blood; in language one; we read the same books; we feed on the same meats; we go to the same schools; we belong to the same communion."

John J. Crittenden, US Senator from Kentucky, March 2, 1861.

 

[leftyhunter]

Problem solved.

"A Yankee is a particular breed of person who believes that everyone should live as he does, and if not, he will force you to bend to his will."
Dr. Brion McClanahan

So Yankees have absolutely no right to ensure that all Americans are not discriminated against?
Leftyhunter

Gordon Rhea and I were speaking of non-slave owners, and why they fought. So are we now flipping and talking about words of the "actual sessionists"?

Rhea was quoting actual Secessionists using the fear of racial miscegenation to recruit non slave owning whites to support Secession.
Leftyhunter

Time Line:
March 4th Lincolns Inaguration
April 12th Sumpter
April 15th Lincolns call for troops to invade Virginia
April 17th Virginia's secession
April 18th Virginia takes Harpers Ferry
July 25th Congress Finally declares war
So it is Mr Lincolns War

No because Lincoln didn't initiate hostilities he merely did his duty to suppress an unlawful rebellion.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lost Cause]

You cannot cut off a persons leg or arm and say the loss will not effect him.

It is the same with a nation.

There is little doubt the loss of the South was significant, especially financially. From the New York Evening Post, March 1861:

"That either the revenue from duties must be collected in the ports of the rebel states, or the port must be closed to importations from abroad, is generally admitted. If neither of these things be done, our revenue laws are substantially repealed; the sources which supply our treasury will be dried up; we shall have no money to carry on the government; the nation will become bankrupt before the next crop of corn is ripe. There will be nothing to furnish means of subsistence to the army; nothing to keep our navy afloat; nothing to pay the salaries of public officers; the present order of things must come to a dead stop.

"What, then, is left for our government? Shall we let the seceding states repeal the revenue laws for the whole Union in this manner? Or will the government choose to consider all foreign commerce destined for those ports where we have no custom-houses and no collectors as contraband, and stop it, when offering to enter the collection districts from which our authorities have been expelled."

 

[jackt62]

Time Line:
March 4th Lincolns Inaguration
April 12th Sumpter
April 15th Lincolns call for troops to invade Virginia
April 17th Virginia's secession
April 18th Virginia takes Harpers Ferry
July 25th Congress Finally declares war
So it is Mr Lincolns War

That timeline neglects events that followed the secession of 7 states (starting with South Carolina on December 20, 1860), and before Lincoln was inaugurated as President of the United States on March 4, 1861. Those events include the belligerent acts of State authorities taking unlawful possession of federal installations including arsenals, forts, and custom houses.

Two examples are:
1. US Arsenal and Barracks in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. In January 1861, Louisiana Militia and the Washington Artillery presented an ultimatum to the commander of the facility, Captain Joseph Haskin:
"The safety of the State of Louisiana demands that I take possession of all Government property within her limits. You are, therefore, summoned hereby to deliver up the barracks, arsenal, and public property now under your command. With the large force at my disposal this demand will be enforced. Any attempt at defense on your part will be a rash sacrifice of life."

2. General David Twiggs surrendered his command, which included all federal installations, property, and soldiers in Texas to the Confederacy in February 1861. For this act, Twiggs was dismissed from the US Army on March 1, 1861 for "treachery to the flag of his country."

In its final months, the Buchanan administration did little to resist these and other aggressive acts beyond instructing its officers to "protect government property." It would take Lincoln to assert, on becoming President that "The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the Government and to collect the duties and imposts." If that Constitutional vow is considered to be the reason for "Lincoln's War" so be it.

 

[unionblue]

There is little doubt the loss of the South was significant, especially financially. From the New York Evening Post, March 1861:

"That either the revenue from duties must be collected in the ports of the rebel states, or the port must be closed to importations from abroad, is generally admitted. If neither of these things be done, our revenue laws are substantially repealed; the sources which supply our treasury will be dried up; we shall have no money to carry on the government; the nation will become bankrupt before the next crop of corn is ripe. There will be nothing to furnish means of subsistence to the army; nothing to keep our navy afloat; nothing to pay the salaries of public officers; the present order of things must come to a dead stop.

"What, then, is left for our government? Shall we let the seceding states repeal the revenue laws for the whole Union in this manner? Or will the government choose to consider all foreign commerce destined for those ports where we have no custom-houses and no collectors as contraband, and stop it, when offering to enter the collection districts from which our authorities have been expelled."

My point is the changes would be significant across the board, financial, social, political, and geographical.

You can't gut the nation over an election and for an institution of nearly $4 billion dollars of human property because you're afraid of what "might" happen.

And that's what it would have been, a gutting of a nation that would leave it not the United States of America, but something not even close to what it became.

To have the idea that nothing would change or the impact on the government at Washington would have not been effected is all moonshine and magnolias, a Southern excuse at forgiving an act of theft and treason.

Unionblue

 

[Lost Cause]

My point is the changes would be significant across the board, financial, social, political, and geographical.

You can't gut the nation over an election and for an institution of nearly $4 billion dollars of human property because you're afraid of what "might" happen.

And that's what it would have been, a gutting of a nation that would leave it not the United States of America, but something not even close to what it became.

To have the idea that nothing would change or the impact on the government at Washington would have not been effected is all moonshine and magnolias, a Southern excuse at forgiving an act of theft and treason.

Unionblue

Was there or has it ever been implied that secession would not have affected the Union as a whole? Furthermore, I am fairly certain the secessionists were not concerned about northerners losing a piece of that $4 billion pie, loss of political alliances or future vacation spots/timeshares for southbound travelers. Lucrative cotton deals were made throughout the war, benefiting Lincoln himself.

 

[Old_Glory]

That doesn't seem very likely. Ft. Sumter was just the last of several CSA assaults on federal property. How can Mr. Lincoln be blamed when CSA had been established before he took office?

I stated that if there was no war, then the US would remain segmented and the Confederates would gain their independance. Explain to me how that is blaming Lincoln?

 

[Copperhead-mi]

Lucrative cotton deals were made throughout the war, benefiting Lincoln himself.

I'm not familiar with this. Rebforever alluded to the same thing yesterday but didn't go into detail. How did Lincoln personally benefit?

 

[unionblue]

There is little doubt the loss of the South was significant, especially financially. From the New York Evening Post, March 1861:

"That either the revenue from duties must be collected in the ports of the rebel states, or the port must be closed to importations from abroad, is generally admitted. If neither of these things be done, our revenue laws are substantially repealed; the sources which supply our treasury will be dried up; we shall have no money to carry on the government; the nation will become bankrupt before the next crop of corn is ripe. There will be nothing to furnish means of subsistence to the army; nothing to keep our navy afloat; nothing to pay the salaries of public officers; the present order of things must come to a dead stop.

"What, then, is left for our government? Shall we let the seceding states repeal the revenue laws for the whole Union in this manner? Or will the government choose to consider all foreign commerce destined for those ports where we have no custom-houses and no collectors as contraband, and stop it, when offering to enter the collection districts from which our authorities have been expelled."

My point is the changes would be significant across the board, financial, social, political, and geographical.

You can't gut the nation over an election and for an institution of nearly $4 billion dollars of human property because you're afraid of what "might" happen.

And that's what it would have been, a gutting of a nation that would leave it not the United States of America, but something not even close to what it became.

To have the idea that nothing would change or the impact on the government at Washington would have not been effected is all moonshine and magnolias, a Southern excuse at forgiving an act of theft and treason.

Unionblue

Was there or has it ever been implied that secession would not have affected the Union as a whole? Furthermore, I am fairly certain the secessionists were not concerned about northerners losing a piece of that $4 billion pie, loss of political alliances or future vacation spots/timeshares for southbound travelers. Lucrative cotton deals were made throughout the war, benefiting Lincoln himself.

There is this continued, underlying tone that the United States government was not being overthrown, which in my view is completely absurd. The loss of the third of the nation would have had a definite impact on the government, not the least of which would change it's character completely. How could it not?

The fact is the federal government was being overthrown in a third of the nation.

As for that $4 billion pie, that was the overriding concern and excuse for the secessionist crowd, not the North.

As for cotton deals, blame that on Davis and the Confederate government as it was their bright idea to suspend it's trade of such with England and France.