General Lee's "Lost Order" # 191

[Bruce Vail]

I don't think that Jackson could have saved Hill. Lee had no problem getting rid of people who he thought were hindering the efficiency of the army (look what happened after the Seven Days) and I think Hill's personality qualifies as doing that.

From my reading, Hill and Jackson actually got along rather well which surprised a lot of people because of Hill's acerbic wit.

Ryan

Gee, I'm sorry, but I don't get your meaning -- 'look what happened after Seven Days.'

I am not as well read as a lot of folks on CWT. I literally don't know what you are referring to.

I read To the Gates of Richmond, but I admit my memory is not strong. What did I miss?

Best,
Bruce

 

[rpkennedy]

Gee, I'm sorry, but I don't get your meaning -- 'look what happened after Seven Days.'

I am not as well read as a lot of folks on CWT. I literally don't know what you are referring to.

I read To the Gates of Richmond, but I admit my memory is not strong. What did I miss?

Best,
Bruce

Officers who did not meet Lee's standards were reassigned. Lee was the only army commander with such authority and so had the ability to keep those he wanted and get rid of the rest. After the Seven Days, there was a purge of officers whom Lee felt were wanting.

Ryan

 

[Bruce Vail]

There is a long list of men who didn't measure up to Lee's standards who were reassigned, particularly after the Seven Days when the Army had a bit of a breather. Theophilus Holmes, John Magruder, Benjamin Huger, and William Whiting come to mind.

Ryan

Oh, did you mean that Lee started to clean out some of the under-performing officers that Johnston/Davis had put in place?

"Theophilus Holmes, John Magruder, Benjamin Huger, and William Whiting come to mind."

And that DH Hill was one of those that Lee wanted to get rid of from the start?

Gee, okay, who else was on the list?

Oh, and by the way, I totally don't get this: "particularly after the Seven Days when the Army had a bit of a breather."

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Battle of the Seven Days end in the first week of July 1862, and the ANV march to the Plains of Manassas begin about 30 days later? Given all the logistics involved, that's a breather?

 

[Bruce Vail]

Officers who did not meet Lee's standards were reassigned. Lee was the only army commander with such authority and so had the ability to keep those he wanted and get rid of the rest. After the Seven Days, there was a purge of officers whom Lee felt were wanting.

Ryan

Oh, okay, a purge. I get it now.

So, those four officers were purged, to be followed shortly by DH Hill.

Any others?

I know Lee got rid of Ripley too.

 

[novushomus]

Yes, that is true. Also A. P. Hill's inability to get along with Jackson and Longstreet is well known. I guess I mean more the politics of it all. The only reference I can recall is the idea that you had to be a Virginian to gain promotion in the Army of Northern Virginia. I think McLaws said something to that effect? Beliefs like that had to lead to resentment on the part of some of the officers.

D.H. Hill wasn't the only officer who was maneuvered out indirectly.

McLaws believed that not being a Virginian played a big role in his being denied Third Corps and with another Virginian, Ewell, getting Second Corps. The truth is, Lee considered A.P. Hill to be a better executive officer, (the third best, after Longstreet and Jackson) and Ewell was Jackson's wish as a replacement. McLaws himself had disappointed Lee at key points in both the Antietam and Chancellorsville campaigns.

McLaws was so unhappy that he inquired with Longstreet about being assigned to Charleston. Longstreet talked him out of it. However, Lee had so little faith in McLaws as a commander that he gave very specific orders (versus his usually broad orders) whenever he was dealing with McLaws directly and asked that Longstreet directly supervise McLaws's division whenever possible. This led to Longstreet directly given orders to McLaws's brigades at Gettysburg, which started initiated the fissure that would lead to McLaws's dismissal at Knoxville.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

McLaws believed that not being a Virginian played a big role in his being denied Third Corps and with another Virginian, Ewell, getting Second Corps. The truth is, Lee considered A.P. Hill to be a better executive officer, (the third best, after Longstreet and Jackson) and Ewell was Jackson's wish as a replacement. McLaws himself had disappointed Lee at key points in both the Antietam and Chancellorsville campaigns.

Cadmus Wilcox also, I believe, felt slighted, although I know Lee had been disappointed in him at times as well.

 

[Bruce Vail]

D.H. Hill wasn't the only officer who was maneuvered out indirectly.

McLaws believed that not being a Virginian played a big role in his being denied Third Corps and with another Virginian, Ewell, getting Second Corps. The truth is, Lee considered A.P. Hill to be a better executive officer, (the third best, after Longstreet and Jackson) and Ewell was Jackson's wish as a replacement. McLaws himself had disappointed Lee at key points in both the Antietam and Chancellorsville campaigns.

McLaws was so unhappy that he inquired with Longstreet about being assigned to Charleston. Longstreet talked him out of it. However, Lee had so little faith in McLaws as a commander that he gave very specific orders (versus his usually broad orders) whenever he was dealing with McLaws directly and asked that Longstreet directly supervise McLaws's division whenever possible. This led to Longstreet directly given orders to McLaws's brigades at Gettysburg, which started initiated the fissure that would lead to McLaws's dismissal at Knoxville.

So just four officers were removed by Lee in the wake of Seven Days?

Holmes
MacGruder
Huger (U-zhay!)
Whiting

You can't count Hill or McLaws. Hill wasn't pushed out till Jan. 1863 and McLaws still had an important command in the ANV when the Battle of Gettysburg opened July 1, 1863, more than a year after the beginning of Seven Days.

And Wilcox was still serving in the ANV at Gettysburg, right?

 

[novushomus]

So just four officers were removed by Lee in the wake of Seven Days?

Holmes
MacGruder
Huger (U-zhay!)
Whiting

You can't count Hill or McLaws. Hill wasn't pushed out till Jan. 1863 and McLaws still had an important command in the ANV when the Battle of Gettysburg opened July 1, 1863, more than a year after the beginning of Seven Days.

And Wilcox was still serving in the ANV at Gettysburg, right?

I didn't count Hill or McLaws in the wake of the Seven Days.

Holmes was returned to district command in North Carolina after the Seven Days (particularly a bad performance at Glendale) and then was picked by Davis to replace Hindman in the Trans-Mississippi. Magruder was initially slotted to take command of the Trans-Mississippi before the Seven Days but had delayed his transfer until the battles were fought. Then, amid allegations of misconduct afterward, he delayed again to try to get a court martial. This cost him both the departmental appointment and a spot in Lee's army and in the end he was shuffled to the District of Texas. Huger, unfairly blamed for the draw at Seven Pines, actually performed very poorly at Glendale and was reassigned, with R.H. Anderson taking his place. He was the one officer who removed from a division in Lee's army who had not been assigned to another department originally. He assumed duty as an ordinance inspector in the District of Arkansas and then the Trans-Mississippi as a whole. Whiting became ill during before the Second Manassas Campaign, with Hood taking his division. Whiting had antagonized President Davis and Hood performed so well that Whiting was not returned to the post, and was instead assigned to Fort Fisher and the defenses of Wilmington.

Wilcox was still in the Army of Northern Virginia but had lost command of his division after an illness and a poor showing at Second Manassas (it was folded into Anderson's). He was unhappy when Pickett was selected to take D.R. Jones's old division and was promoted over him and sought re-assignment in the West. Lee convinced him to remain, but he still commanded a brigade in Anderson's division until Gettysburg. After this, he was promoted to take the Light Division after Pender's death.

Other officers who were reassigned out of the army include Thomas Drayton, an incompetent brigade commander who was sent to the District of Arkansas.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

So just four officers were removed by Lee in the wake of Seven Days?

Holmes
MacGruder
Huger (U-zhay!)
Whiting

You can't count Hill or McLaws. Hill wasn't pushed out till Jan. 1863 and McLaws still had an important command in the ANV when the Battle of Gettysburg opened July 1, 1863, more than a year after the beginning of Seven Days.

And Wilcox was still serving in the ANV at Gettysburg, right?

McLaws was with Longstreet until Knoxville. Following that campaign, Longstreet had him court martialed. Wilcox fought with the army until the end I believe.

Neither McLaws nor Wilcox lost their commands due to Lee. But, both (I think) believed that they deserved promotions they did not receive (or Wilcox received later than he felt he deserved).

 

[Bruce Vail]

I didn't count Hill or McLaws in the wake of the Seven Days.

Holmes was returned to district command in North Carolina after the Seven Days (particularly a bad performance at Glendale) and then picked by Davis to replace Hindman in the Trans-Mississippi. Magruder was initially slotted to take command of the Trans-Mississippi before the Seven Days but had delayed his transfer until the battles were fought. Then, amid allegations of misconduct afterward, he delayed again to try to get a court martial. This cost him both the departmental appointment and a spot in Lee's army and in the end he was shuffled to the District of Texas. Huger, unfairly blamed for the draw at Seven Pines, actually performed very poorly at Glendale and was reassigned, with R.H. Anderson taking his place. He was the one officer who removed from a division in Lee's army who had not been assigned to another department originally. He assumed duty as an ordinance inspector in the District of Arkansas and then the Trans-Mississippi as a whole. Whiting became ill during before the Second Manassas Campaign, with Hood taking his division. Whiting had antagonized President Davis and Hood performed so well that Whiting was not returned to the post, and was instead assigned to Fort Fisher and the defenses of Wilmington.

Wilcox was still in the Army of Northern Virginia but had lost command of his division after an illness and a poor showing at Second Manassas (it was folded into Anderson's). He was unhappy when Pickett was selected to take D.R. Jones's old division and was promoted over him and sought re-assignment in the West. Lee convinced him to remain, but he still commanded a brigade in Anderson's division until Gettysburg. After this, he was promoted to take the Light Division after Pender's death.

Other officers who were reassigned out of the army include Thomas Drayton, an incompetent brigade commander who was sent to the District of Arkansas.

Is that the same Drayton nearly captured by the Yankees on the slopes of South Mountain?

I have read a series of confusing accounts. Ripley was ordered up the mountain to attack, but failed to advance into the face of battle. Instead, he ordered his men drawn back along the Sharpsburg Road, leaving Drayton's men exposed to attack or capture.

Drayton was terrified -- and furious. He escaped disaster, but only by a hair.

Ripley was accused of incompetence - or cowardice.

It was a huge mess.

 

[Bruce Vail]

I didn't count Hill or McLaws in the wake of the Seven Days.

Holmes was returned to district command in North Carolina after the Seven Days (particularly a bad performance at Glendale) and then picked by Davis to replace Hindman in the Trans-Mississippi. Magruder was initially slotted to take command of the Trans-Mississippi before the Seven Days but had delayed his transfer until the battles were fought. Then, amid allegations of misconduct afterward, he delayed again to try to get a court martial. This cost him both the departmental appointment and a spot in Lee's army and in the end he was shuffled to the District of Texas. Huger, unfairly blamed for the draw at Seven Pines, actually performed very poorly at Glendale and was reassigned, with R.H. Anderson taking his place. He was the one officer who removed from a division in Lee's army who had not been assigned to another department originally. He assumed duty as an ordinance inspector in the District of Arkansas and then the Trans-Mississippi as a whole. Whiting became ill during before the Second Manassas Campaign, with Hood taking his division. Whiting had antagonized President Davis and Hood performed so well that Whiting was not returned to the post, and was instead assigned to Fort Fisher and the defenses of Wilmington.

Wilcox was still in the Army of Northern Virginia but had lost command of his division after an illness and a poor showing at Second Manassas (it was folded into Anderson's). He was unhappy when Pickett was selected to take D.R. Jones's old division and was promoted over him and sought re-assignment in the West. Lee convinced him to remain, but he still commanded a brigade in Anderson's division until Gettysburg. After this, he was promoted to take the Light Division after Pender's death.

Other officers who were reassigned out of the army include Thomas Drayton, an incompetent brigade commander who was sent to the District of Arkansas.

The 3rd NC was under the command of Theophilus Holmes in July 1861 when it arrived at Acquia Creek, Va. They did picket duty along the river for a while.

The unit was transferred to the Dept of North Carolina in February 1862 when all of eastern North Carolina was in a panic over the invasion of Burnside's expeditionary force.

They remained in Goldsboro, NC until May 1862, then ordered to Richmond.

 

[novushomus]

Is that the same Drayton nearly captured by the Yankees on the slopes of South Mountain?

I have read a series of confusing accounts. Ripley was ordered up the mountain to attack, but failed to advance into the face of battle. Instead, he ordered his men drawn back along the Sharpsburg Road, leaving Drayton's men exposed to attack or capture.

Drayton was terrified -- and furious. He escaped disaster, but only by a hair.

Ripley was accused of incompetence - or cowardice.

It was a huge mess.

That is indeed the same Drayton of South Mountain. Both D.R. Jones and Lafayette McLaws (and their corps commander Longstreet) complained that Drayton couldn't manage a brigade. He was unable to bring his brigade into action at Second Manassas (when he could have turned the Federal lines either at Chinn Ridge or Henry House Hill) and at South Mountain, his brigade was nearly destroyed. Combined with an administrative incompetence, and Lee finally wrote Davis the following letter.

Drayton was assigned to the Trans-Mississippi Department and was given Daniel Frost's Missouri brigade of Price's division when Frost deserted. When Price assumed command of the District of Arkansas, Drayton assumed command of the division. When Price's division was sent to reinforce Taylor, Kirby Smith decided that it would be best to avoid having the troops under the command of an unfortunate officer and so he sent Drayton to the District of Texas for staff duty.

 

[Bruce Vail]

That is indeed the same Drayton of South Mountain. Both D.R. Jones and Lafayette McLaws (and their corps commander Longstreet) complained that Drayton couldn't manage a brigade. He was unable to bring his brigade into action at Second Manassas (when he could have turned the Federal lines either at Chinn Ridge or Henry House Hill) and at South Mountain, his brigade was nearly destroyed. Combined with an administrative incompetence, and Lee finally wrote Davis the following letter.

View attachment 141212

View attachment 141213

Drayton was assigned to the Trans-Mississippi Department and was given Daniel Frost's Missouri brigade of Price's division when Frost deserted. When Price assumed command of the District of Arkansas, Drayton assumed command of the division. When Price's division was sent to reinforce Taylor, Kirby Smith decided that it would be best to avoid having the troops under the command of an unfortunate officer and so he sent Drayton to the District of Texas for staff duty.

Interesting indeed.

Did Gen. Lee ever write a similar letter about Gen. Ripley? The pieces that I have read lack clarity about Ripley's transfer from Brigade Commander in the ANV to garrison duty in Charleston, S.C. In some places it is implied that he was removed from ANV for incompetence (or cowardice).

One of Ripley's subordinates, Col. William DeRosset of the 3rd N.C., waged a decades-long campaign against him. As late as 1901 DeRosset published a short memoir suggesting Ripley purposefully dragged his feet to avoid going into action at 2nd Manassas, and then ran away from a fight at South Mountain.

 

[Yankeedave]

And as an off shoot don't understand how Huger kept command. He performed poorly in N.C. poorly in Va. then returned to N.C. to foul up again. Is D. H. Hill's transfer an attempt by the admin to salvage a situation?

 

[Bruce Vail]

I don't think that Jackson could have saved Hill. Lee had no problem getting rid of people who he thought were hindering the efficiency of the army (look what happened after the Seven Days) and I think Hill's personality qualifies as doing that.

From my reading, Hill and Jackson actually got along rather well which surprised a lot of people because of Hill's acerbic wit.

Ryan

"... acerbic wit."

That's sort of a nice way of saying "arrogant prick," right?

 

[Yankeedave]

"... acerbic wit."

That's sort of a nice way of saying "arrogant prick," right?

I've read his wit was biting in an era where that would draw gasps. Sharp to a point were it was detrimental.

 

[rpkennedy]

"... acerbic wit."

That's sort of a nice way of saying "arrogant prick," right?

Somewhat. Hill did have a sarcastic and biting wit but he was also a prick.

Ryan

 

[Bruce Vail]

I've read his wit was biting in an era where that would draw gasps. Sharp to a point were it was detrimental.

He was said to have remarked at one point immediately after the Battle of Antietam the "we have too many cowards in our army."

I am still appalled by this statement, coming just after his men had fought in the Cornfield and the Sunken Lane. He should have been horsewhipped.

His more normal style is on display in his official report on the Maryland campaign. It is not witty at all -- he just heaps blame on everybody else that the fighting wasn't more successful.

 

[novushomus]

Interesting indeed.

Did Gen. Lee ever write a similar letter about Gen. Ripley? The pieces that I have read lack clarity about Ripley's transfer from Brigade Commander in the ANV to garrison duty in Charleston, S.C. In some places it is implied that he was removed from ANV for incompetence (or cowardice).

One of Ripley's subordinates, Col. William DeRosset of the 3rd N.C., waged a decades-long campaign against him. As late as 1901 DeRosset published a short memoir suggesting Ripley purposefully dragged his feet to avoid going into action at 2nd Manassas, and then ran away from a fight at South Mountain.

I'm not aware if Lee ever wrote a similar letter about Ripley. Ripley was badly wounded at Antietam, so Lee used the opportunity provided by his convalescence to replace him with George Doles. Ripley was assigned to South Carolina, where he continued to rub his superiors the wrong way until the end of the war.

 

[Andy Cardinal]

I'm not aware if Lee ever wrote a similar letter about Ripley. Ripley was badly wounded at Antietam, so Lee used the opportunity provided by his convalescence to replace him with George Doles. Ripley was assigned to South Carolina, where he continued to rub his superiors the wrong way until the end of the war.

There was an article about Ripley in a recent issue of America's Civil War.

http://www.historynet.com/rebel-pariah-general-roswell-ripley.htm