Impressions Thoughts on dismounted cavalry?

[3rdTennCo.C]

I will tag you if you wish in my other post critiquing my brothers and I, the differences I made in my uniform are listed there, I wouldn't mind your opinion

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Going by the FB page photos, uniforms are the biggest problem.

I'll compliment y'all on apparently not having sidearms on you dismounted men, but, and I mean no offence, the uniforms are horrible all the way around mounted and dismounted. First off too much blanket gray uniforms, not enough jean cloth uniforms, and way, way too much yellow.

Uniforms for the Army of Tennessee, all branches, tended towards more to jean cloth uniforms, and outside of the almost always blue-trimmed Columbus Depot jackets, no branch of service colors. Most of the uniforms found on "sutler row" are useless, mainly because of the cloth used in their construction. The all purpose "wool" found is usually to heavy in weight, and wrong in color. For example "butternut" wool that is sold, didn't exist at all, your "butternut" uniforms were mostly jean cloth, (jean is weave of cloth, almost always cotton and wool mixed) and the gray uniforms found are in shades of gray that didn't exist, or were extremely rare.

In the Confederate Army, there is no uniform that fits in all time periods of the war. Someone can have a uniform that is exactly accurate, but only to say 1863-1864, and not be anything at all like what was worn 1861-1862 or in 1865. I could go on, and on about how to improve y'alls impression, but that would take several posts.

The best one stop place to learn how to improve you unit's uniforms is to go to adolphusconfederateuniforms.com Fred Adolphus has done an astounding amount of in depth research into Confederate uniforms. You'll find all sorts of articles on original uniforms, and if you read them thoroughly you'll know what to look for when improving an impression.

The best article to start on would be "Basics of Confederate Uniforms"
http://adolphusconfederateuniforms.com/basics-of-confederate-uniforms.html

As for a great vendor to get uniforms that are correct and don't look like they came from a Hollywood prop house, I suggest Wambaugh, White and Company at http://wwandcompany.com/

Also here's a link to a picture of a jacket worn by a private in the 3rd Tennessee Cavalry. The page has pictures of many uniforms, and accoutrements, but top row, forth picture is what you particular unit should aspire to: http://confederatesaddles.com/photo-gallery/cs-cavart-uniforms/

Also I noticed a few "Confederate Sack Coats" as sold by many sutlers in y'alls ranks. They did not exist at all in the war. There were Confederate made sack coats, but they were jean cloth, and rare in comparison to shell jackets, and what gets sold as one by most mainstream sutlers, is nothing like the originals. If your guys want a sack coat, I suggest a civilian one. They usually have several pockets, their out of jean cloth most of the time, they were common to be sent to troopers from home before 1864, and they are mostly underrepresented at regular reenactments.

I don't want to seem like a jerk, because I'm not, I've just pointed out problems in general with dismounted cavalry and how to improve your unit's impression.

EDIT- Also on the link to Confederate Saddles the first two pictures of the last row is also one worn by a soldier of the 3rd Tennessee Cavalry.

 

[Lampasas Bill]

Every three years the Missouri Department of Natural Resources hosts a reenactment of the Battle of Pilot Knob at the Fort Davidson State Historic Site in Pilot Knob, Missouri. These are the uniform suggestions issued to Confederates, all of whom were dismounted cavalry during the battle:

Confederates: Price's force consisted of cavalry and artillery. The cavalry, with the possible exception of Shelby's men (who were not at Pilot Knob) were in reality mounted infantry. Please discard your standard cavalry impression. With the exception of some officers, this cavalry did not have sabers or bright yellow trimmed uniforms. The standard weapon was the three-band Enfield rifle-musket, and although many other types of weapons were in use, including seized Springfields, civilian rifles and shot guns. Few re-enactors have civilian weapons that will qualify as authentic. Austrian Lorenz rifles are currently being replicated and were used in this battle. The Lorenz was most likely the .54 caliber three band, with possibly some .58 caliber weapons captured from Union troops in the mix.. For that reason, be prepared to use your verifiable military weapon. By the time Price's force had reached Fredericktown, they had done some hard marching, particularly through the mountains of Arkansas. The men were gaunt and dirty. The condition of their clothing was bad and many men replaced their rags at the expense of the citizenry along the way. Discipline was so bad in some of the regiments that looting became widespread. Most men in Price's army were clad in civilian clothing by the time of Pilot Knob. The exception was Cabell's Brigade, which stood out on the battlefield as being the only ones "wearing the grey." What this meant exactly is open to interpretation. That Cabell's men had remnants is undeniable; perhaps they had saved them in their saddlebags for just such an occasion. The other correct impression is, ironically, a complete Federal uniform. The entire advance of Marmaduke's Division was clad in blue as they descended Shepherd Mountain to attack the 14th Iowa on the 27th. Price's men had captured several supply trains on their way up and many Confederates wore the blue throughout the latter part of Price's Campaign. More than 100 men later regretted it as they were shot after being captured at the Battle of Mine Creek, Kansas, when Price's army was broken up. Additional details. Confederates should consider including the following: Many men wore blankets over their shoulders in place of greatcoats they didn't have. Many men wore simple leggings made from strips of cloth wrapped around the leg from the knee down. Trousers didn't last long when riding through brush without them. The cloth strips used to tie the legging were often soaked in Kerosene to ward off ticks and chiggers. There was doubtless much standard leather gear in use, but many men had to use homemade pouches to carry caps and cartridges. Others simply filled their pockets. In the absence of canteens, men used bottles with string slings. Many men were not mounted, so the absence of horses is authentic. Fighting by both sides at Pilot Knob was almost all done dismounted.

 

[turner ashby kidd]

@ 3rdTennCoC I don't know your location. For what it's worth a reputable Confederate Cavalry will be at Stones River,NMP in Murfreesboro,Tn on Sat., September 14,2019.
Co D, 7th Tenn Cav is having a living history demonstration. This unit is known for accurate W Tenn cavalry impression and being well drilled. The aforementioned Ken Knopp is a member of this unit.
If you're in Middle Tenn it could be worth your time to see their impression with your own eyes. I hope to get over there for one of the cavalry demonstrations.

 

[privateflemming]

If you have accurate, properly documented descriptions or photos of what they would have looked like, then Id like to see it. Ive heard that before but no one as of yet has come back with wjat they Did look like

I don't think I'm a super expert but I've done some research on Confederate cavalry so I'll try to give some photos and illustrations of my impressions. I'm not a reenactor but the biggest thing I see reenactors do that I think is usually really unrealistic is when they have yellow cuffs, collars and chevrons. Even though this was the official regulation and there were definitely some regiments who seem to have been able to outfit themselves this way in the early war or individuals who acquired or modified their garments to be like this later, I'll explain why I think this is mostly not an accurate representation of how Confederate cavalry looked.

First here is one example of a sergeant in the 1st North Carolina Cavalry who clearly has yellow chevrons (and also a US issued belt). This is from the beginning of the war and North Carolina out of all the Confederate states seems to have been able to equip its soldiers the best.

Here is an illustration by Don Troiani of a member of the 1st NC probably based on the above photo:

There is also a famous anecdote from the Western Theater in which in the winter of 1861/62 some newly recruited Alabama cavalry were supposedly called "yellowhammers" by Forrest's cavalry because of their regulation yellow trimmed uniforms, in contrast to Forrest's men. Most Confederate cavalry weren't issued any uniforms at the beginning of the war (including the Alabama cavalry sergeant in my profile picture who posed with a photographer's prop jacket and probably started out with civilian clothes). So I don't think some yellow trim here and there is necessarily inaccurate but it's extremely overdone by a lot of reenactors. I don't think most would have had any yellow trim at all.

This is an illustration by Don Troiani showing a North Carolina cavalryman probably later in the war:

Here is a photo of Virginia cavalrymen captured in June 1863:

All I'm seeing there are what look like some plain gray shell jackets and civilian clothes. Nothing fancy and I doubt any of them have yellow trim.

Here is an Osprey illustration of Virginia cavalry with a lot of civilian clothes:

Here is an illustration by Don Troiani of the 13th Virginia Cavalry at Gettysburg in July 1863:

Again, there is no yellow trim but the corporal with the flag actually appears to have black chevrons. Branch colors were often ignored. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that Columbus Depot jackets were often issued with blue trim regardless of branch. Here is Mosby with officers and men of the 43rd Virginia Cavalry, and you can see that even they don't appear to have any yellow trim although one has black chevrons:

Here is a member of the 1st Alabama Cavalry, CSA, who appears to have black or blue chevrons:

Here is an illustration by Don Troiani of one of Forrest's men with black chevrons:

And here is another representative Troiani illustration of the 34th Virginia Cavalry in 1863:

Anyway I won't link all of Don Troiani's cavalry paintings but in addition to photographs I think they're really good representations of what real Confederate cavalry actually looked like and I'd recommend you Google more of them.

 

[privateflemming]

and the gray uniforms found are in shades of gray that didn't exist, or were extremely rare.

What shades of gray didn't exist or were extremely rare? I thought Confederate dyes were often inconsistent and subject to fading, so wouldn't just about any shade of gray be plausible?

 

[grognard]

"If your guys want a sack coat, I suggest a civilian one. They usually have several pockets, their out of jean cloth most of the time..."

What makes people think civilians sewing at home would have preferred jean cloth? Or had access to the same cloth being woven for military use?

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

"If your guys want a sack coat, I suggest a civilian one. They usually have several pockets, their out of jean cloth most of the time..."

What makes people think civilians sewing at home would have preferred jean cloth? Or had access to the same cloth being woven for military use?

They may not be referring to something made at home, rather a purchase from a tailor or such

 

[James N.]

I think the main problem with those who initially choose to be dismounted cavalry is the relative cost of the impressions. Repro pistols will always be cheaper than rifles or muskets (assuming it's cheap repro "Colts" we're talking about and not Le Mats!) and from there it's fairly easy to cobble together a farb cavalry "uniform" with lots of flashy yellow trim. Accouterments aren't even necessary, because of course, they're on the horse back in the woods!

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

What shades of gray didn't exist or were extremely rare? I thought Confederate dyes were often inconsistent and subject to fading, so wouldn't just about any shade of gray be plausible?

Imported Pakistani made Confederate uniforms tend to go towards a very light gray with the oddball wool material. That is a shade of gray that didn't exist, not to mention the oddball fabric. Also the old Woolrich "Medium Gray" wool cloth coats have a decent color to them, but not for woolen fabric, that particular color belongs more with jean cloth uniforms.

Most all wool cloth Confederate jackets were of various shades of a blue-gray, while the old Woolrich stuff that's gone is more of a mixed, or charcoal gray, and the Pakistani stuff I don't know what they were doing.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

What makes people think civilians sewing at home would have preferred jean cloth? Or had access to the same cloth being woven for military use?

More plentiful and cheaper.

 

[grognard]

Okay, how many civilian sack coats, known to have been made at home and sent to CS troops by family members, are known to have survived? I don't know of any - do you?

My point really is that civilian items worn by CS troops should not match clothing issued by the military. Take a look at the photo of the captured Virginia cavalrymen in reply #65. The men wearing identifiably civilian styles generally don't match the soldiers - coats are mostly darker and some trousers are lighter. Probable colors would include black, brown, dark grays, maybe drab green - anything but blue.

"Jean" was not the only cotton/wool blend fabric available; there were also such things as cassimere and satinette. CS depots bought all the gray jeancloth they could find, or commissioned it from weavers - I really question whether the same cloth would have been widely available to civilians. If you want a repro civilian item, don't use a military fabric.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Imported Pakistani made Confederate uniforms tend to go towards a very light gray with the oddball wool material. That is a shade of gray that didn't exist, not to mention the oddball fabric. Also the old Woolrich "Medium Gray" wool cloth coats have a decent color to them, but not for woolen fabric, that particular color belongs more with jean cloth uniforms.

Most all wool cloth Confederate jackets were of various shades of a blue-gray, while the old Woolrich stuff that's gone is more of a mixed, or charcoal gray, and the Pakistani stuff I don't know what they were doing.

Is that Pakistani grey similar to what was cadet grey?

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Okay, how many civilian sack coats, known to have been made at home and sent to CS troops by family members, are known to have survived? I don't know of any - do you?

My point really is that civilian items worn by CS troops should not match clothing issued by the military. Take a look at the photo of the captured Virginia cavalrymen in reply #65. The men wearing identifiably civilian styles generally don't match the soldiers - coats are mostly darker and some trousers are lighter. Probable colors would include black, brown, dark grays, maybe drab green - anything but blue.

"Jean" was not the only cotton/wool blend fabric available; there were also such things as cassimere and satinette. CS depots bought all the gray jeancloth they could find, or commissioned it from weavers - I really question whether the same cloth would have been widely available to civilians. If you want a repro civilian item, don't use a military fabric.

Actually, one sack coat I'm aware of that survived was worn by Captain Julius Story of the 12th TX Infantry. It's featured here: http://adolphusconfederateuniforms.com/the-confederate-depot-sack-coat-an-overlooked-garment.html

I doubt citizen sack coats would have been seen after late 1863-early 1864, (something about Union Armies running all over the place), but before hand, I reckon they would have been a common sight. As for cloth, yeah there was cassimere and satinette, but jean was more plentiful. Oh jean was NOT a military only fabric, it was a civilian fabric adapted to military use, not the other way around. Jean was common fabric for slaves, and lower class people all over the South before the war. The most common everyday name for jean cloth was homespun.

As for survivors, I must ask, how many Commutation Jackets have survived? None that can be verified. But we still know they were there don't we? We know Confederate soldiers got clothing from home when possible, and preferred it over government issued cloths. Logic is the best way to determine what they got in lieu of detailed accounts. Military shell jackets, were usually referred to as "jackets" sack coats, frock coats, and paletots, were usually referred to simply as "coats" now frock coats are not something anyone can make at home properly, they take a lot of cloth, and its typically a tailor made garment.

So that leaves us with the most logical choice of "coats" sack coats or paletots. Paletots had really gone out of fashion, they were more common the further west you got, but sack coats were in fashion for outer wear, and they were something a mother or wife at home could make easiest. So we must conclude when some soldier got an outfit from home, it was more than likely a jean "homespun" sack coat.

I'll conclude with a firsthand account from Arthur Freemantle of all people about General Liddell's Arkansas brigade:

"The men were good-sized, healthy, and well clothed, but without any attempt at uniformity in colour or cut; but nearly all were dressed either in grey, or brown coats and felt hats. I was told that even if a regiment was clothed in proper uniform by the Government, it would become parti-coloured in a week, as the soldiers preferred wearing the coarse homespun jackets and trousers made by their mothers and sisters at home."

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Is that Pakistani grey similar to what was cadet grey?

Sorry to say, but no. Not at all I'm afraid.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Sorry to say, but no. Not at all I'm afraid.

Alright, don't think I've seen or noticed the Pakistani color grey then

 

[captaindrew]

Jean, cassimere, and satinette are pretty much the same fabric just a different weave.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Alright, don't think I've seen or noticed the Pakistani color grey then

Going by the FB photos, its all over the place in your unit.

 

[grognard]

"Jean, cassimere, and satinette are pretty much the same fabric just a different weave."

"Denim" and "percale" are both cottons - but don't get confused about which one to use for pants, and which for bed sheets

 

[grognard]

"The most common everyday name for jean cloth was homespun."

Homespun and jeans are two different things. More specifically, jeans can be homespun; but not all homespun had a jean weave.

Thank you for providing the link to Capt Storey's coat. I note that it was made of "sky blue homespun". Agreeing with my point that clothing received from home did not generally match military issued cloth.

Your Fremantle quote also appears to agree with my point:

"I was told that even if a regiment was clothed in proper uniform by the Government, it would become parti-coloured in a week, as the soldiers preferred wearing the coarse homespun jackets and trousers made by their mothers and sisters at home."

The rest of your points would make interesting debates, but are digressing a bit from the subject of the thread.