Impressions Thoughts on dismounted cavalry?

[Rusk County Avengers]

Thank you for providing the link to Capt Storey's coat. I note that it was made of "sky blue homespun". Agreeing with my point that clothing received from home did not generally match military issued cloth.

I never said they "matched" I said jean, or rather homespun was cloth adopted by the for use by the Confederate Army when constructing uniforms. In other words, the same cloth the Confederate Army got, the citizenry could get their hands on and vice versa.

Oh and generally speaking, homespun is almost always jean. Jean is a weave, and it was a common one, I don't know how many references I've come across of "homespun jeans" or homespun and jean being mentioned by different members of the same regiment in their memoirs as what they got around the same time. A correlation basically.

But we are straying from the thread's purpose.

 

[grognard]

"In other words, the same cloth the Confederate Army got, the citizenry could get their hands on and vice versa."

This assumption is the nub of the matter. I would argue that the CS government clothing bureaus bought, or if need be simply took, all the cloth that was suitable for producing uniforms. Citizens got the leftovers.

Fred Adolphus's article "Basics of Confederate Uniforms" notes that homemade articles received by the troops were generally a darker, warmer brown shade than the tan or oatmeal color factory-made army cloth tended to fade to. If citizens could have got their hands on the same stuff this would not have been true.

Too many reenactors think "civilian" = "CSA soldier sans jacket".

 

[captaindrew]

"Jean, cassimere, and satinette are pretty much the same fabric just a different weave."

"Denim" and "percale" are both cottons - but don't get confused about which one to use for pants, and which for bed sheets

They are all a wool yarn over a cotton warp. From a distance you couldn't tell the difference. They just all have a different style weave. I only have my phone handy or I'd post some pics.

 

[privateflemming]

Imported Pakistani made Confederate uniforms tend to go towards a very light gray with the oddball wool material. That is a shade of gray that didn't exist, not to mention the oddball fabric. Also the old Woolrich "Medium Gray" wool cloth coats have a decent color to them, but not for woolen fabric, that particular color belongs more with jean cloth uniforms.

Most all wool cloth Confederate jackets were of various shades of a blue-gray, while the old Woolrich stuff that's gone is more of a mixed, or charcoal gray, and the Pakistani stuff I don't know what they were doing.

I feel like sometimes people criticize stuff like this simply because they know it is wrong in the sense of it being an imitation and not actually the real thing, but at the same time something like it could be quite accurate. I can't say because I don't know exactly what color you're talking about but here are some real surviving Confederate jackets that are pretty light gray:

Basics of Confederate Uniforms

Basics about Confederate Uniforms Fred Adolphus, May 10, 2014, (Updated 17 June 2024) Over the years, I have collected data about the origins and characteristics of the Confederate uniform, and I...

adolphusconfederateuniforms.com

https://acwm.org/sites/default/files/resources/artifact_2.pdf

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

I feel like sometimes people criticize stuff like this simply because they know it is wrong in the sense of it being an imitation and not actually the real thing, but at the same time something like it could be quite accurate. I can't say because I don't know exactly what color you're talking about but here are some real surviving Confederate jackets that are pretty light gray:

View attachment 322927

Basics of Confederate Uniforms

Basics about Confederate Uniforms Fred Adolphus, May 10, 2014, (Updated 17 June 2024) Over the years, I have collected data about the origins and characteristics of the Confederate uniform, and I...

adolphusconfederateuniforms.com

View attachment 322928

https://acwm.org/sites/default/files/resources/artifact_2.pdf

The imported junk looks similar in color to the first one's picture. As for the second one I'm not familiar with that one, but it looks like a battleshirt of some kind instead of a jacket. As for the first one, I'd wager its darker than that, its obvious the flash was on, and Adolphus has made it clear in his writings, (and once to me personally), that his pictures of uniforms tend to be lighter than in person. Also that particular jacket was worn by a Georgia cadet and the mass produced junk looks nothing like it. It has an exterior pocket and darts around the collar not mentioned lined which would give a better fit than any of the mass produced junk.

Cloth, pattern, measurements and construction make a big difference when replicating something.

 

[grognard]

"I feel like sometimes people criticize stuff like this simply because they know it is wrong in the sense of it being an imitation and not actually the real thing..."

From a purely practical standpoint, the trouble with cheap poly-wool blends is that they will bake you to death on a hot day. In addition to not breathing as well as all natural fibers, they are generally thicker than originals - in the mistaken belief that only thick cloth can be hard-wearing.

As to color - while there are definitely "wrong" colors (like Federal blue that fades to purple), there really are no "right" ones. Color is very subjective, with the same object looking different to different people and in different lighting conditions. Also there was no way to specify colors precisely at the time, and the dyes used gave inconsistent results even before fading set in. The best we can do is produce colors which are in the right "range".

 

[grognard]

"They are all a wool yarn over a cotton warp. From a distance you couldn't tell the difference. "

They look very different close up, however. Ben Tart, who has forgotten more about CS cloths than most will ever know, says this on his website:

"What is the difference between plains, jean, cassimere & satinette ?

"The terms plains, satinette , cassimere and jean all refer to the weave structure in the cloth. All four weaves in the cloth we carry are wool filling threads woven over cotton warp threads. Plains cloth is a plain weave where the wool thread goes over one cotton thread and under the next. In jean weave the wool thread goes under 1 cotton thread then over the next two. In cassimere cloth the wool thread goes under 2 cotton threads then over the next two this weave is offset so that there is a defined twill line on both the face and the back of the cloth. In satinette the wool thread floats over several cotton threads before going under one. Satinette has most of the wool on the face of the fabric and most of the cotton on the back to mimic an all wool fabric."

FAQ

These differences are functional as well as cosmetic. Satinette was called "poor man's broadcloth" because it looks like pure wool from the outside. This lustrous appearance comes at a price - the wool yarns go over several cotton ones before going under just one. The result is a relatively weak cloth that is vulnerable to surface damage and tearing under stress.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Most com only used though was the jean wool yes, military use civilian made garments?

 

[DixieRifles]

Here is an Osprey illustration of Virginia cavalry with a lot of civilian clothes:

Which one is a Confederate Officer? If any?

 

[grognard]

"Most commonly used though was the jean wool yes, military use civilian made garments?"

I would say the answer to that question is (apologies for the Red Green parody) the three words reenactors find so hard to say:

We Don't Know

What DO we know?

We know that Capt. Storey's coat was made of "sky blue homespun". Not jeans cloth.

We know that Burton Marchbanks' coat was made of brown colored plain weave wool. Not jeans cloth.

However, with a sample size of 2 - it's pretty hard to generalize about what was "most common" .

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

"Here is an illustration by Don Troiani of one of Forrest's men with black chevrons" @turner ashby kidd

There being obvious photos and what I would assume are accurate illustrations, would some see it as farb if I displayed my rank of corporal using black? Was it more common to not show a lower NCO rank during late war western theater?

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

"Most commonly used though was the jean wool yes, military use civilian made garments?"

I would say the answer to that question is (apologies for the Red Green parody) the three words reenactors find so hard to say:

We Don't Know

What DO we know?

We know that Capt. Storey's coat was made of "sky blue homespun". Not jeans cloth.

We know that Burton Marchbanks' coat was made of brown colored plain weave wool. Not jeans cloth.

However, with a sample size of 2 - it's pretty hard to generalize about what was "most common" .

CS Cavalry Artillery Uniforms

←Back to Photo Gallery …

confederatesaddles.com

On this source here, there are the two jackets that are traced to troopers of the 3rd Tennessee cavalry, both are described as wool jean, would it at least be safe to say it was likely common for that unit?

 

[grognard]

"would it at least be safe to say it was likely common for that unit?"

If there is one jacket known to have been issued to a soldier of the 3rd Tenn Cav at some time, it is reasonable to assume the next man in the ranks might have been issued a similar jacket about the same time.

If there are two such jackets, it is even more likely the next man in the ranks got a similar jacket as well.

However, with only two jackets, it's always possible these were the outliers; and two jackets issued during the same period tell us nothing about what the troops wore during other periods.

Bottom line: People throw around the word "common" a little too easily. We don't really know for sure what most CS troops were issued because records were not kept at the level of detail reenactors want to incorporate in their portrayals. Terms like "Richmond Depot" did not exist during the ACW, they were coined by collectors and researchers to make sense out of the known variations in what were simply called "jackets" at the time.

If you really want to research the uniforms and equipment of the 3rd Tenn Cav, you won't get all the answers with a few posts on discussion forums (not that there's anything wrong with asking questions ). You need to start soaking up information like a sponge. Learn the history of the unit, and how the CS clothing issue system worked - location probably determined what kind of uniform they were issued. Find all the original images of the unit you can and study them. Track down letters and memoirs for clues. Network with others who have done this before you. You may find this turns into a hobby of its own, and you're only done researching when you stop.

 

[grognard]

"...would some see it as farb if I displayed my rank of corporal using black? "

No matter what you do, some will "see it as farb". Some of them are well-intentioned, others are mean-spirited. I wouldn't worry about it.

Instead, ask yourself some questions. Do you always portray a corporal, or sometimes a private? Do you always fall in with the same group, or does your group combine with others? Will your stripes be out of place if that happens?

Do you understand and are you comfortable with performing all the duties of a corporal (Kautz's "Customs of Service for NCOs" is a good place to start)? How about a Sergeant? Remember a corporal may have to step up at any time if all the sergeants are absent.

As I understand it, surviving CS NCO chevrons are generally tape sewn directly to the sleeves, not on a separate patch like some Federal ones. So it's harder to put on stripes for just one event. You may want to consider having two jackets, one for private and one for corporal.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

"...would some see it as farb if I displayed my rank of corporal using black? "

No matter what you do, some will "see it as farb". Some of them are well-intentioned, others are mean-spirited. I wouldn't worry about it.

Instead, ask yourself some questions. Do you always portray a corporal, or sometimes a private? Do you always fall in with the same group, or does your group combine with others? Will your stripes be out of place if that happens?

Do you understand and are you comfortable with performing all the duties of a corporal (Kautz's "Customs of Service for NCOs" is a good place to start)? How about a Sergeant? Remember a corporal may have to step up at any time if all the sergeants are absent.

As I understand it, surviving CS NCO chevrons are generally tape sewn directly to the sleeves, not on a separate patch like some Federal ones. So it's harder to put on stripes for just one event. You may want to consider having two jackets, one for private and one for corporal.

I will look up the customs of NCO but yes I am established as the corporal for my unit and recognized as such with groups that we fall in with and those who fall in with us

Also yes I try not to go purely by what people say on here which is why I like when people post sources, I read those and accumulate what I know and say based on those

 

[DixieRifles]

Where is the thread about what happened to troopers if they lost their horse and/or how they were paid or had to pay if they lost one??

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Does anyone know what a good place to look would be for any more original photos or accurate illustrations for this/a particular unit?

 

[grognard]

Start with a Google search on "3rd Tennessee Cavalry" (be careful, the Union had one too).

Some articles will have links. Follow them, see where they lead.

You are starting a long process. Be patient.

 

[3rdTennCo.C]

Start with a Google search on "3rd Tennessee Cavalry" (be careful, the Union had one too).

Some articles will have links. Follow them, see where they lead.

You are starting a long process. Be patient.

I have been researching for a while now but my problem is I haven't really been able to hone in on much on the specific unit, wondering if anyone here already has any links on the subject in addition to what I've done already

 

[DixieRifles]

Much obliged

Here is an Inventory of weapons used by Forrest's Cavalry Corps of 4,401 men. It also listed the equipment, such as horses, halters, bridles, haversacks and canteens but I omitted that info. Interesting to note that there are NO Bayonets listed in either the Equipment or the Arms lists.

The men Present in the four units are:
Chalmers= 4,401
Buford = 3,845
Gholston = 1,327
Escort = 64

Take for example Forrest's Escort of 64 men. They had 4 Enfield muskets, 63 Sharps Carbines and 5 Burnside. Edited: The totals don't add up! Summary says 4 long arms and 63 pistols. Where are the carbines? Total should be 72 Long Arms. They had 63 revolvers. How many Sabres? Zero!
Chalmers division seemed to like sabres. It seems he could also scrounge up many Mississippi Rifles.
I don't know what to make of Gholston's Division. Only 298 weapons for 1,300 men??? Add up the percent totals and it is 29% were armed. I guess Buford's Division had only 79% armed---if I read this right.

Only 2 shotguns in the entire corps. I'm not sure what "Holster Pistols" were unless maybe single-shot.