The Non-Celtic Confederacy

[BamaFreeStater]

There is a book on Amazon called"Attack and Die Southern military tactics and heritage "McWitney and Jameson. That argues Confederate soldiers died due to their brave Celtic nature. I call BS . In war people die a lot unless one side runs away. I don't see culture really playing a part one way or the other but's just me.
Leftyhunter

I thought that most soldiers died due to disease or being impaled by a projectile.

 

[Schwallanscher]

I thought that most soldiers died due to disease or being impaled by a projectile.

impaled? really?

 

[Henry Brown]

take the example of John Punch.
john punch was an african (slave/servant ?) whose master was Hugh Gwyn , a wealthy landowner in virginia.
punch ran away with two european indentured servants of Gwyn's.
they were captured and each white man got four more years but punch got life. however...
Gwyn, the elite planter, was of Welch ancestry.
Victor , a dutchman, and james gregory, a scotchman, were indentured servants.
John Punch an african that was probably named for an english master represents by proxy the Norman heritage.
so it would seem that different social status levels were represented by different ethnicity s.

 

[Henry Brown]

Assigning ethnic labels such as "Anglo-Saxon" is fraught with difficulties and the term itself only began to be used in the 8th century to distinguish "Germanic" groups in Britain from those on the continent (Old Saxony in present-day Northern Germany).

 

[Pat Young]

Assigning ethnic labels such as "Anglo-Saxon" is fraught with difficulties and the term itself only began to be used in the 8th century to distinguish "Germanic" groups in Britain from those on the continent (Old Saxony in present-day Northern Germany).

I am looking at how Southern whites viewed themselves. There are repeated references in Southern white sources referring to the Confederates as Anglo-Saxon.

To my friends in Central America, all of us here in the US are Yankees and all whites here are Anglos. These are not scientific terms and their use depends on the user.

 

[Henry Brown]

I was prompted to post this thread because I read yet another piece by Southern whites echoing the claim of being Anglo-Saxons.

that is because it is really rather complicated and most folks do not know the origins or history of anglo-saxons and native inhabitants ( including me ) . by the time of the civil war the gene pool must have become a bay at low tide with all sorts of flotsam. a dna study would be very interesting.

 

[Henry Brown]

I am looking at how Southern whites viewed themselves.

i really didn't want to say this because i will be attacked for it but...
most people in general , but especially those southerners who claim a particular heritage are actually ignorant of their heritage. as am i.
most people hear my last name and assume i am irish. i am only irish enough to have kept the name but am mostly german ( i do not know if they were angles or saxons or some other germanic tribe). i can only trace my family history to around 1500 so who knows ? i believe only science can answer that question.

 

[Henry Brown]

i could be wrong but i think most southerners who make that claim are thinking in terms of whiteness and military prowess.

 

[Pat Young]

i really didn't want to say this because i will be attacked for it but...
most people in general , but especially those southerners who claim a particular heritage are actually ignorant of their heritage. as am i.
most people hear my last name and assume i am irish. i am only irish enough to have kept the name but am mostly german ( i do not know if they were angles or saxons or some other germanic tribe). i can only trace my family history to around 1500 so who knows ? i believe only science can answer that question.

My point has nothing to do with DNA.

 

[wausaubob]

Genetic separateness is a great humbug. P.T. Barnum visited that territory well before the internet.
The agricultural revolution and its pastoral extensions re-populated Europe, in waves as the climate improved.
Those individuals genetically able to withstand the change in disease conditions are the basis of the modern population.
Genetic separateness began to disappear in the Paleolithic.

 

[Henry Brown]

My point has nothing to do with DNA.

my point does not either and i think we are of like mind.
i was just pointing out the fact that the english heritage was diverse and most people are ignorant of it. the use of the term anglo-saxon is exactly what you described in the use of that term by central americans. it is a substitute for white. i also think they infer a cultural superiority with the use of the term.

from encyclopedia britannica :
Anglo-America, cultural entity of North America whose common spoken language is English and whose folkways and customs historically have been those of northern Europe. It comprisesmost of the United States and Canada, with French-speaking Canada a notable exception. The term also designates a geographical area on the North American continent as apart from Latin, Spanish, or Ibero-America (comprising Middle and South America) with strong Hispanic traditions and heritage. The expression Anglo has come to signify a white, English-speaking North American as distinct from one of Latin-American descent.

 

[BamaFreeStater]

impaled? really?

I guess that ,denotatively, a better word would be pierced or punctured. Auf Deutsch: macht loch

I watched a documentary where they stated that the relatively low velocity of the minnie ball was responsible for the high mortality rate of wounded soldiers because if a bullet or shrapnel hit something else before it entered the body of a soldier, it would carry remnants of that item into the wound, creating a source of infection. The higher velocity of modern rifle bullets cause the bullets to heat up so that they often burn up contaminants that they pick up prior to entering the body, thus sterilizing themselves and creating a more sterile wound.

 

[Henry Brown]

as to DNA...
a study might show these southerners just how diverse the european population was in the nineteenth century and therefore how diverse and/or unknown the heritage of the southern population really was. like i said my heritage was far different than i supposed. i have german, dutch, and english (native or immigrants ?) ancestors that entered the colonies in the 1600's. the irish parts of me came much later. i might have had some african blood before the irish part was introduced. if my english ancestor had a child with a dutch ancestor (which happened) are they anglo-saxon or frankish or romano-british or norman? it is all very complicated and those who insist on referring to themselves as from the anglo-saxon heritage, without DNA evidence, are trying to say something altogether different. people of the time only had their family bibles and last names to determine heritage linkages.
ps. our understanding of history is changing all of the time. it has recently been determined by consensus of scientists and historians that the anglo-saxon migration to britian did not involve large numbers as was thought before. they inter-married with local populations and established kingdoms . their surnames were applied to their entire estate but they did not represent a majority of the population and by the time of immigration to the states or colonies were much diffused with native britons with the exception of english nobility , who could most likely trace their family histories.

 

[mofederal]

Many members in my family were Celts. The rest were mostly English. They originally came over early for the most part and ended up in Kentucky. Most eventually moved on to Illinois, Missouri and one family to Minnesota. They did not move again until after the war. Most were of Celtic origin.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Just stumbled on this thread, and love it! I have a tendency to get into heated arguments with a few of my fellow Southerners, and fellow reenactors on this subject. So many Southerners are adamant that we're all Scottish, or Scots-Irish. I've had folks quote British officers in the Revolutionary War saying the whole thing in the South was a Scottish Jacobite Rebellion as proof, (when I ask for the source, it tends to be dubious), and its all news to me as the Scottish in the South at the time supported the King. Getting back on point, I always point out to my adamant friends that Southern architecture tends to favor English origins, (Anglo-Saxon), our culture has more in common with the North English, our religion is predominantly non-Catholic, and more Baptist, our accents, and dialects have more in common with the English, (I recently had a chance to put that to the test with a Scottish actor, and a English one, the Scot couldn't mimic the Southern accent to save his life in 3 weeks, the Englishman had no problem after 1), and the South's politics have more in common with what England's politics used to be eons ago.

I'm in full agreement with the belief that the South is Anglo-Saxon, but many Southerners will never accept it, because they look at us as the underdog, and the Scotland tends to have a historical underdog identity as well, and we must be of the same blood in the eyes of many, and sadly no amount of proof to the contrary will convince some folks. I'm glad to see that this has been addressed as any quick purview of Confederate leaders names should be proof, but the Confederacy was the underdog to many people, (including myself), and many folks never look at Anglo-Saxons as the underdog, which to me is an odd perception of history.
Not trying to stir the pot, just expressing my agreement with the title.
(edited)

 

[Henry Brown]

"People are not aware of the extent of the influence of the Scots-Irish on Southern icons"

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...cots-irish-roots-run-deep-in-the-south/73188/

 

[Henry Brown]

I'm in full agreement with the belief that the South is Anglo-Saxon

There is a debate between historians, geneticists and others about the extent to which historical changes in the culture of the British Isles corresponds to historical migration events of Germanic tribes, and to the extent of these migrations. The traditional view of historians, based on contemporary accounts and linguistic evidence, was that the English are primarily descended from the Anglo-Saxons, the term used to describe the various Germanic tribes that migrated to the island of Great Britainfollowing the end of the Roman occupation of Britain, with assimilation of later migrants such as the Norse Vikings and Normans.

This belief is now regarded by many historians as incorrect, on the basis of more recent genetic and archaeological research. Based on a re-estimation of the number of settlers, some have taken the view that it is highly unlikely that the British Celtic-speaking population was substantially displaced by the Anglo-Saxons and that instead a process of acculturation took place, with an Anglo-Saxon ruling elite imposing their culture on the local populations.[27][28] Research into the genetic history of the British Isles, conducted by Stephen Oppenheimer in 2007 appears to support this theory, not showing a clear dividing line between the English and their 'Celtic' neighbours but a gradual clinal change from west coast Britain to east coast Britain, originating from upper palaeolithic and Mesolithic era variations in a pre-Indo-European population, which Oppenheimer argues form the basis of the modern population of the British Isles rather than Germanic tribes or Celts.[29][30] More recent genetic studies of ancient British DNA have refuted the hypothesis that the Anglo-Saxon invaders formed an elite class largely separate from the indigenous population, finding that samples from culturally Anglo-Saxon graveyards contained individuals who were more Celtic, suggesting a high level of intermingling between the Anglo-Saxons and the native Britons. [wikipedia , english people]

 

[Irishtom29]

Celts are peoples who speak a Celtic native tongue. Language not DNA decides. One might stretch it and say those directly and closely descended from Celtic speakers are Celts. Maybe. My mother and all four of my grandparents were from Ireland and were Catholic "true" Irish (so to speak) but only one of my grandparents spoke Irish.

Most Scotch Irish are descended from lowland Scots who spoke a Germanic tongue, were opposed to the "Irish" highland Scots and are not at all Celtic. IME the Germans, Poles and Mexicans have more in common with Celtic descendants than the Scotch-Irish do. In Chicago anyway. ;-)

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

There is a debate between historians, geneticists and others about the extent to which historical changes in the culture of the British Isles corresponds to historical migration events of Germanic tribes, and to the extent of these migrations. The traditional view of historians, based on contemporary accounts and linguistic evidence, was that the English are primarily descended from the Anglo-Saxons, the term used to describe the various Germanic tribes that migrated to the island of Great Britainfollowing the end of the Roman occupation of Britain, with assimilation of later migrants such as the Norse Vikings and Normans.

This belief is now regarded by many historians as incorrect, on the basis of more recent genetic and archaeological research. Based on a re-estimation of the number of settlers, some have taken the view that it is highly unlikely that the British Celtic-speaking population was substantially displaced by the Anglo-Saxons and that instead a process of acculturation took place, with an Anglo-Saxon ruling elite imposing their culture on the local populations.[27][28] Research into the genetic history of the British Isles, conducted by Stephen Oppenheimer in 2007 appears to support this theory, not showing a clear dividing line between the English and their 'Celtic' neighbours but a gradual clinal change from west coast Britain to east coast Britain, originating from upper palaeolithic and Mesolithic era variations in a pre-Indo-European population, which Oppenheimer argues form the basis of the modern population of the British Isles rather than Germanic tribes or Celts.[29][30] More recent genetic studies of ancient British DNA have refuted the hypothesis that the Anglo-Saxon invaders formed an elite class largely separate from the indigenous population, finding that samples from culturally Anglo-Saxon graveyards contained individuals who were more Celtic, suggesting a high level of intermingling between the Anglo-Saxons and the native Britons. [wikipedia , english people]

In my experience, Anglo-Saxon references, and Celtic references delve into the culture at its core, I've never delved into DNA as the deciding factor. Culturally modern, (as in the past 200 years) Anglo-Saxons are Englishmen, Celtic Scottish, Irish or Scots-Irish, and culturally the South mirrors Englishmen a whole lot more than it does Scots, or the others, (sadly poor Whales hasn't had much an impact here, sadly even I tend to forget them), last time I checked DNA doesn't effect culture, and Celtic DNA from two thousand years ago, doesn't have a cultural impact on anything, much less a cultural region that only goes back 300 years as a distinct group.

Not being mean or intend any hostility, just saying DNA from two thousand years ago means very little in the face of cultural differences. Oh and I'm using the term cultural as a blanket for all the distinctions I mentioned in my original post.

 

[Henry Brown]

In my experience, Anglo-Saxon references, and Celtic references delve into the culture at its core, I've never delved into DNA as the deciding factor.

then you are a victim of the propaganda. the confederacy proclaiming itself anglo-saxon is very similar to hitler's evoking the teutonic myth.
also religion has nothing to do with the differences between celts and anglo-saxons. they were all (except those exposed to roman christianity) pagans during the migration to england and most native britons were also. after that they were all (for the most part) roman catholic until 1534 and henry the viii. henry was a diverse specimen being anglo-saxon, celtic, norman, and french among others. his church reformation was a thousand years after the german migration. as to language.... it is determined from where you were born and lived and language assimilates people of different origins.

By the time the Norman kings were establishing themselves in England, and had excess warriors, Ireland's would be kings and established kings needed men and began sending to England for excess Norman-English warriors, whom, by that time, the Norman kings were only too happy to see leave. The invited Anglo-Norman mercenaries stayed in Ireland, intermarrying with the leading families of the Irish kingdoms and being awarded large tracts of land by the kings for their services. At this time, though, everyone was nominally, if not practicing, Catholic. Within a couple of generations, the Norman lords had additionally adopted the older Irish culture and even were speaking Gaelic. By the mid-16th century they were as Irish as the older Irish families themselves, thoroughly intermarried with them, and there were few distinctions among them.