The Non-Celtic Confederacy

DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group

A DNA study carried out in 2015 showed that although there is not a single Celtic group, there is a genetic basis for regional identities in the UK. Many of the genetic clusters we see in the west and north are similar to the tribal groupings and kingdoms around, and just after, the time of the Saxon invasion, suggesting these kingdoms maintained a regional identity for many years,". Prof Donnelly and his colleagues compared genetic patterns now with the map of Britain in about AD 600, after the Anglo Saxons had arrived from what is now southern Denmark and Northern Germany. By then, they occupied much of central and southern England.
"We see striking similarities between the genetic patterns we see now and some of these regional identities and kingdoms we see in AD 600, and we think some of that may well be remnants of the groupings that existed then," he explained.

A map of different genetic groupings reveals subtle but distinct differences between those sampled in West Yorkshire and the rest of the country. There is also a marked division between the people of Cornwall and Devon that almost exactly matches the county border. And the People of Devon are distinct again to those from neighbouring Dorset. It also finds that people in North and South Wales are more different from each other than the English are from the Scots; and that there are two genetic groupings in Northern Ireland.

The Wellcome Trust-funded study, which is part of the People of the British Isles Research Project, also found that people in the north of England are genetically more similar to people in Scotland than they are to those in the south of England.
Prof Mark Robinson, an archaeologist who works with Prof Donnelly at Oxford University, said he was "very surprised" that Celtic groups in Cornwall, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland had such different genetic patterns.

"I had assumed at the very early stages of the project that there was going to be this uniform Celtic fringe extending from Cornwall through to Wales into Scotland. And this has very definitely not been the case.
Although people from Cornwall have a Celtic heritage, genetically they are much, much more similar to the people elsewhere in England than they are to the Welsh for example," said Prof Donnelly.

"People in South Wales are also quite different genetically to people in north Wales, who are both different in turn to the Scots. We did not find a single genetic group corresponding to the Celtic traditions in the western fringes of Britain."

The new analysis shows a modest level of Saxon DNA, suggesting that the native British populations lived alongside each other and intermingled with the Anglo Saxons to become the English.

There is some evidence in the study that intermingling did not happen immediately following the Saxons' arrival, but occurred at least 100 years later. This suggests that Britons and Saxons had separate communities to begin with, and then over time they began to merge.

The study also notes that there are two genetic groupings in Northern Ireland: one of which also contains individuals across the sea in western Scotland and the Highlands; the other contains individuals in southern Scotland and southern England.

The former appears to reflect the kingdom of Dalriada 1,500 years ago; the other probably represents the settlers of the Ulster Plantations.

And in Orkney, the study finds clear evidence of Norwegian DNA, as might be expected from the Viking settlement of the Islands.

Interestingly, it persists at fairly low levels, suggesting that the Vikings and the existing populations coexisted and intermingled more than people had expected - in the way that occurred with the Anglo Saxons.

The Viking armies that laid waste to parts of England, and for a while ruled what became known as the Danelaw, left little if any genetic trace, confirming that their success was due to their military prowess rather than large-scale population movement.

Likewise, the Norman conquest of England did not leave any genetic evidence.

Source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31905764
 
I'm English born but raised by a Scottish mother and an English father, my mother was raised by an Irish father and a Scottish mother, I have A Welsh wife so that makes my children, EngIrweltish as far as religion goes we remain confused.:frantic:
Not uncommon here in the U.S. for people to have Heinz 57 varieties of backgrounds as my mom used to say.
 
what's that suppossed to mean? you better don't ask what are the ingredients of heinz 57?
She grew up in a time when a lot of Americans bragged about being "pure blooded" or "full blooded" this or that, and she used to laugh that they either did not know or could not admit that a lot of us were pretty much a mix-up of ethnicities. Of course now, people brag on their variety when they get their DNA tests back.
 
She grew up in a time when a lot of Americans bragged about being "pure blooded" or "full blooded" this or that, and she used to laugh that they either did not know or could not admit that a lot of us were pretty much a mix-up of ethnicities. Of course now, people brag on their variety when they get their DNA tests back.

I always chuckle when I hear someone say that they are pure American, I just think to myself, no, your culture is American but you are a mixture of many ethnicities. Its okay to claim that you belong to a certain culture but please don't claim that you are a pure this or that.
 
Indulging in this particular subject, Celtic - South v. Anglo-Saxon - North is one of my guilty pleasures. Guilty, because it really does not have much to do with CW History. Pleasure, because it has no real relevance to this board, one can let ones imagination fly to the farthest regions of imagination. and, thus, IMO, can have little or no real impact on actual facts of history.

In the actual fact of history, the Celts were the victims of advancing history, i.e., they were often cast into the role of opposing the advance of Superior cultures and usually being defeated and assimilated by their conquerors.
 
DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group

A DNA study carried out in 2015 showed that although there is not a single Celtic group, there is a genetic basis for regional identities in the UK. Many of the genetic clusters we see in the west and north are similar to the tribal groupings and kingdoms around, and just after, the time of the Saxon invasion, suggesting these kingdoms maintained a regional identity for many years,". Prof Donnelly and his colleagues compared genetic patterns now with the map of Britain in about AD 600, after the Anglo Saxons had arrived from what is now southern Denmark and Northern Germany. By then, they occupied much of central and southern England.
"We see striking similarities between the genetic patterns we see now and some of these regional identities and kingdoms we see in AD 600, and we think some of that may well be remnants of the groupings that existed then," he explained.

A map of different genetic groupings reveals subtle but distinct differences between those sampled in West Yorkshire and the rest of the country. There is also a marked division between the people of Cornwall and Devon that almost exactly matches the county border. And the People of Devon are distinct again to those from neighbouring Dorset. It also finds that people in North and South Wales are more different from each other than the English are from the Scots; and that there are two genetic groupings in Northern Ireland.

The Wellcome Trust-funded study, which is part of the People of the British Isles Research Project, also found that people in the north of England are genetically more similar to people in Scotland than they are to those in the south of England.
Prof Mark Robinson, an archaeologist who works with Prof Donnelly at Oxford University, said he was "very surprised" that Celtic groups in Cornwall, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland had such different genetic patterns.

"I had assumed at the very early stages of the project that there was going to be this uniform Celtic fringe extending from Cornwall through to Wales into Scotland. And this has very definitely not been the case.
Although people from Cornwall have a Celtic heritage, genetically they are much, much more similar to the people elsewhere in England than they are to the Welsh for example," said Prof Donnelly.

"People in South Wales are also quite different genetically to people in north Wales, who are both different in turn to the Scots. We did not find a single genetic group corresponding to the Celtic traditions in the western fringes of Britain."

The new analysis shows a modest level of Saxon DNA, suggesting that the native British populations lived alongside each other and intermingled with the Anglo Saxons to become the English.

There is some evidence in the study that intermingling did not happen immediately following the Saxons' arrival, but occurred at least 100 years later. This suggests that Britons and Saxons had separate communities to begin with, and then over time they began to merge.

The study also notes that there are two genetic groupings in Northern Ireland: one of which also contains individuals across the sea in western Scotland and the Highlands; the other contains individuals in southern Scotland and southern England.

The former appears to reflect the kingdom of Dalriada 1,500 years ago; the other probably represents the settlers of the Ulster Plantations.

And in Orkney, the study finds clear evidence of Norwegian DNA, as might be expected from the Viking settlement of the Islands.

Interestingly, it persists at fairly low levels, suggesting that the Vikings and the existing populations coexisted and intermingled more than people had expected - in the way that occurred with the Anglo Saxons.

The Viking armies that laid waste to parts of England, and for a while ruled what became known as the Danelaw, left little if any genetic trace, confirming that their success was due to their military prowess rather than large-scale population movement.

Likewise, the Norman conquest of England did not leave any genetic evidence.

Source:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31905764

One thing to note is the nature study referenced in this article uses autosomal DNA only... which represents more recent DNA mixing vs say Y DNA which shows ancient paternal lines (3-4,000 years +)


To paraphrase my earlier post the Y DNA matches a Celtic Y DNA haplogroup across Europe, sometimes called Proto-Celtic since it likely predates the term Celt (used by Romans to refer to continental Celts), though it is shared across the cultures that have common cultural elements we've identified as "Celtic"


A good overview
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml#maps

Some more in-depth ones for the groups

R1b - L21 - First wave of Celts/Proto-Celts that came to Britain, represents hotspots in Insular Celt places like Ireland, Scotland, and Wales
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

R1b - S21/U106 - Mostly represents the Anglo Saxon wave, later Viking immigration and impact as well
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S21-U106

R1b - S28/U152 - Cousin Celts to L21 though represents more Continental Celts (hotspoting in Northern Italy) who came to Britain later than the first L21 wave, made a much smaller impact and mostly in the South East. Also probably came in smaller numbers with the Romans (explains the slight hotspot in Northern England around Roman outposts) and Normans
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

I1- Mostly represents the Anglo Saxon wave, later Viking immigration and impact as well
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml#distribution


When looking at these ancient paternal patterns we can see the history still in todays population
 
Indulging in this particular subject, Celtic - South v. Anglo-Saxon - North is one of my guilty pleasures. Guilty, because it really does not have much to do with CW History. Pleasure, because it has no real relevance to this board, one can let ones imagination fly to the farthest regions of imagination. and, thus, IMO, can have little or no real impact on actual facts of history.

In the actual fact of history, the Celts were the victims of advancing history, i.e., they were often cast into the role of opposing the advance of Superior cultures and usually being defeated and assimilated by their conquerors.

You've basically said in a far more concise way something which I have been trying to say myself, the Celts were absorbed into history.
 
When looking at these ancient paternal patterns we can see the history still in todays population
Thank you for the information,
There is some very interesting information within the links that you have provided, some things are completely new to me, 'The Bell Beaker cultural phenomenon did not in fact replace the Megalithic culture in western Europe, but coincided with it.' It is all very interesting and it proves that many of the theories that I have taken for granted as being genuine and proven have now been disproved. Time for me to reshuffle my timelines.

 
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One interesting thing I found out about Scots-Irish ancestry when trying to research one particular family is that when the Scots resettled in Northern Ireland, the whole group often took the name of their clan leader, say Montgomery as in my family, but they were not blood relatives. When some came to the U.S., generally to Philadelphia and then across the South, they carry this family name but it can be difficult to trace the heritage.

I came across one lineage of Montgomerys in the South who had done incredible genealogical work and found their place among the large number of Montgomerys across the South, only to discover with DNA that they were related to a totally different line. My family didn't seem related to any of the other lines of Montgomerys and when by accident I found a male cousin who'd had his DNA tested, that turned out to be true--we didn't match many others in the U.S. The same is probably true of other Scots-Irish "clans."

All of which is to say that some of the generalizations about Celtic populations in the South are probably just generalizations.
 
Former Confederate Lt. Col. Alfred Waddell discussing the need for Anglo-Saxon supremacy at a meeting in North Carolina in 1898:

Waddell unfurled his next bloodthirsty declaration in Goldsboro, where 8,000 white Democrats came to cheer the long-haired colonel and other Democratic leaders, including Simmons, Aycock and William A. Guthrie, mayor of Durham. Waddell set the tone and electrified the crowd with his promise to throw enough black bodies into the Cape Fear River to block its passage to the sea. Guthrie, flanked by Red Shirts, imagined a bloody race war. “The Anglo-Saxon planted civilization on this continent,” Guthrie claimed, “and wherever this race has been in conflict with another race, it has asserted its supremacy and either conquered or exterminated the foe. This great race has carried the Bible in one hand and the sword [in the other.]” Guthrie warned the Fusionists: “Resist our march of progress and civilization and we will wipe you off the face of the Earth.”

http://media2.newsobserver.com/content/media/2010/5/3/ghostsof1898.pdf page 9 News and Observer
 
Former Confederate Lt. Col. Alfred Waddell discussing the need for Anglo-Saxon supremacy at a meeting in North Carolina in 1898:

Waddell unfurled his next bloodthirsty declaration in Goldsboro, where 8,000 white Democrats came to cheer the long-haired colonel and other Democratic leaders, including Simmons, Aycock and William A. Guthrie, mayor of Durham. Waddell set the tone and electrified the crowd with his promise to throw enough black bodies into the Cape Fear River to block its passage to the sea. Guthrie, flanked by Red Shirts, imagined a bloody race war. “The Anglo-Saxon planted civilization on this continent,” Guthrie claimed, “and wherever this race has been in conflict with another race, it has asserted its supremacy and either conquered or exterminated the foe. This great race has carried the Bible in one hand and the sword [in the other.]” Guthrie warned the Fusionists: “Resist our march of progress and civilization and we will wipe you off the face of the Earth.”

http://media2.newsobserver.com/content/media/2010/5/3/ghostsof1898.pdf page 9 News and Observer
From the same article:

A “White Man’s Rally” on Nov. 2 featured free barbecue and torchlight parades of armed men. The night before the election, Waddell reminded the armed throng: “You are Anglo-Saxons. You are armed and prepared, and you will do your duty. If you find the Negro out voting, tell him to leave the polls, and if he refuses, kill him, shoot him down in his tracks. We shall win tomorrow if we have to do it with guns.”
 
Former Confederate Lt. Col. Alfred Waddell discussing the need for Anglo-Saxon supremacy at a meeting in North Carolina in 1898:

Waddell unfurled his next bloodthirsty declaration in Goldsboro, where 8,000 white Democrats came to cheer the long-haired colonel and other Democratic leaders, including Simmons, Aycock and William A. Guthrie, mayor of Durham. Waddell set the tone and electrified the crowd with his promise to throw enough black bodies into the Cape Fear River to block its passage to the sea. Guthrie, flanked by Red Shirts, imagined a bloody race war. “The Anglo-Saxon planted civilization on this continent,” Guthrie claimed, “and wherever this race has been in conflict with another race, it has asserted its supremacy and either conquered or exterminated the foe. This great race has carried the Bible in one hand and the sword [in the other.]” Guthrie warned the Fusionists: “Resist our march of progress and civilization and we will wipe you off the face of the Earth.”

http://media2.newsobserver.com/content/media/2010/5/3/ghostsof1898.pdf page 9 News and Observer
apparently he never saw a person from Galilee Anwar Sadat is a good example not exactly blue eyes blonde hair
 
Here is another example. This one is from the Lexington, Miss. dedication of a new Confederate monument. The speech was given by Confederate veteran Wiley Nash in 1908:

It may be asked, “What good purpose is subserved, promoted and supported by the erection of these Confederate memorials all over the South?” I answer:

(1) Besides honoring the South, the Southern cause, its supporters and brave defenders, the living and the dead, it will keep in heart and spirit the South, and her people for all time to come.

(2) It will keep honored and honorable, as the years roll on, the name and fame of the fathers and forefathers of our present and future dominant and ruling Southern Anglo-Saxon element, those who, “come weal, come woe,” are to mould, shape, fix, dictate, and control the destiny of the South and her people.

(3) It will educate each rising generation, each influx of immigration in our customs, traditions, thought and feeling, as well as in the esteem, love and admiration of the Southern people.

(4) It will help all others to form a correct idea of, a respect for our civil, religious, social and educational institutions.

(5) It will help to a true understanding of home rule and local self-government, contending for which the South lost so many of her best and bravest.

(6) It will serve to keep the white people of the South united — a thing so necessary — to keep, protect, preserve and transmit, our true Southern social system, our cherished Southern civilization, —


    • “And Dixie’s sons shall stand together,

    • Mid sunshine and in stormy weather,

    • Through lightning flashes and mountains sever,

  • Count on the ‘Solid South’ forever.”
(7) Like the watch fires kindled along the coast of Greece that leaped in ruddy joy to tell that Troy had fallen, so these Confederate monuments, these sacred memorials, tell in silent but potent language, that the white people of the South shall rule and govern the Southern states forever.

(8) They will tell to Sovereign States from the Atlantic, where raged the fight that made us free, to the calm and placid waters of the Pacific, to States, if made from the isles of the sea, how sacred and how dear are the reserved rights of the States, reserved in the language of the Constitution to the States, or to the people.

(9) They will teach the South through all the ages to love the Southern Cause, her Southern soldier boys.
 
Believe me, I never forget the Welsh.
My problem was I could not find data on Welsh nativity by state.
the Owings family which is my great grandfathers side are welsh came to maryland in the late 1680s from montgomeryshire now i dont know numbers by state but i do know theres alot of them Maryland Kentucky South carolina Tennessee and ohio that i know of and i swear they are all from the same clan
 
From the same article:

A “White Man’s Rally” on Nov. 2 featured free barbecue and torchlight parades of armed men. The night before the election, Waddell reminded the armed throng: “You are Anglo-Saxons. You are armed and prepared, and you will do your duty. If you find the Negro out voting, tell him to leave the polls, and if he refuses, kill him, shoot him down in his tracks. We shall win tomorrow if we have to do it with guns.”
I cant help but wonder if there was some animosity from the old world lingering around here.Most of my family of western North carolina were of celtic orgin McKinney,Buchanan,Ayers, O'Burleson later Burleson and while they were also mostly Dedicated confederates it is well known that the people of mountain regions of western North carolina did not always see eye to eye with the eastern part of the state.I will admit that it may have been purely political and it is a small personal sample size but i cant help but wonder if some of the old world clan mentality and family tradtion of hating the english was involved here.
 
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