Edged Wpns Sword Help

Ols67

Cadet
Joined
Feb 14, 2021
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Hello! My name is Matt, and I recently purchased and elderly gentleman's antique knife and bayonet collection. We chatted for most of an afternoon, and we got down to business. I believe he just wanted his collection to go to someone that would enjoy it as much as he has...it included an 1856 British Yataghan, a WWI Imperial German S98 Bayonet made by V.C. Schilling, a WWI Swiss Model 1911 Pioneer Sawback, a Weyersberg Kirschbaum & Co. Modelo Argentino 1891, a tourist Kris from the Philippines, a tourist Kukri from india, what appears to be an ancient Kindjal, and also what appears to be some sort of ancient Persian Kard.

Neither the gentleman, nor I, knew what he had, and I was only able to figure out what I had purchased after spending a few hours online researching. I am not a collector, but I have always loved edged weapons...especially since I got my start in the Army. The size of these bayonets makes them seem like short swords, and for them to go on the old rifles seems crazy to me. I came up on the M4 Carbine and a short HK416...those handle like toys compared to the battle rifles of the mid-1800s through WWI.

After we agreed on a price that I was comfortable paying from the perspective of me hanging these on my wall, he asked me a favor. He said, "Matt...I don't know what these swords are or what they are worth. Can you sell them for me, and whatever you get we will split 50/50?" I told them that I have never sold swords, and I didn't have a clue what they were, or what they were worth either. He replied, "I don't use the internet, and I don't know anyone...so you are in a better position to figure these out, and sell them." I couldn't argue with his logic, and so I agreed to do my best for him.

At any rate, I am somewhat lost in the sauce on what these are, when they date from, and approximate value. However, I did do some research (how I found this wonderful forum), and here is what I came up with:

1. I think this is a pre-civil war sword that was made by Schnitzler & Kirachbaum in Germany. It has seen better days, but much of the bluing is intact. The bluing is pretty neat...it appears navy, but when the light hits it right, it turns an almost iridescent blue!
B2F4675D-8190-43C1-9DDE-5E8C7A819BD5.jpeg
C5CE581D-C825-4980-8DAC-B071F7E9D254.jpeg
15511D33-1E4B-4BE4-B9F0-671A901A2D5E.jpeg
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EB550B1E-5DEE-4996-8277-F041C61D8969.jpeg
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2. The next sword I think is a Shamshir from the 17 to 1800s. I have the end cap that fell off of the end of the handle.
2BFB4829-3434-4913-AE7F-6A8B1C117A81.jpeg
B4B92E0B-CF01-4358-8966-2CFDE8A69175.jpeg
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6A4DAA0F-50B8-49D8-94DC-17670578AF18.jpeg

5E56A576-538D-4281-9194-0558F5E0166F.jpeg

3. I think this third one is some sort of Chinese sword from the 1800s. It is a heavy beast and the bell gaurd is very loose.
4B336EB5-E260-4CF0-A794-A486D80F6F9E.jpeg
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So those are the swords that I don't really know very much about, and any insight or help would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

Vr

Matt
 
Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. Since they are not CW its out of my wheelhouse.
 
Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. Since they are not CW its out of my wheelhouse.
Thanks! I think the first sword might be pre civil war, or civil war...but that's just a haphazard guess from what I was looking at yesterday! Have a great week!

Vr

Matt
 
The first sword is a M1821 French infantry sword. It was also imported to the US, primarily by Horstmann. Are there any marks on the blade? They would usually be on the ricasso (the area on the top of the blade next to the hilt) or on the spine. If so, it may be possible to tell when and where the sword was made and if it was possibly American.
 
The first sword is a M1821 French infantry sword. It was also imported to the US, primarily by Horstmann. Are there any marks on the blade? They would usually be on the ricasso (the area on the top of the blade next to the hilt) or on the spine. If so, it may be possible to tell when and where the sword was made and if it was possibly American.
Thank-you very much Richard! There are no markings on the spine, but I did think it was a Schnitzler & Kirschbaum because of these photos I found online on an eBay auction...the sword has same bluing and engraving, but with a different handle/gaurd
B6A3EE8E-C650-47ED-B3DA-CC710DC380D3.jpeg
709382E8-AE16-4940-BE14-FA1D12F1D149.jpeg

Then here are the markings on the sword I have to sell:
CA520B36-B773-4C02-B377-069D2DAA17F4.jpeg
18DECF97-8CE1-4858-BC9F-1AA1D1870505.jpeg

It is fascinating trying to unravel the mystery...or at least educate myself.

Did the U.S. Army even use Schnitzler & Kirschbaum swords before the civil war?

So this might be a French Infantry sword, manufactured by the Germans, and imported into the US? Amazing!

Or...perhaps this sword was never used by any U.S. Army men, and was a French sword that somehow ended up here in this gentleman's collection?

Vr

Matt
 
The knife you tentatively identified as a kard is actually a flyssa. It comes from North Africa; Wikipedia states that it is traditional to Algeria. They use the same form for knives up to swords. It might be 19th century but I suspect that most of these are early 20th century. Keep in mind that I know one when I see one and that's about it. I don't know anything about determining age or anything else. The sword bayonet looks like it comes from a British Enfield 2 band or short rifle pattern 1856. There were two versions of this bayonet, one where the lug was attached to the barrel and one where the lug was attached to the barrel band. The lug on the barrel came first but there were concerns about stress to the barrel so the lug was relocated to a barrel band. The WD stands for "War Department". I think this stamp along with the broad arrow above it indicated the bayonet's acceptance by the government inspectors. When the bayonet was sold out of service, i.e. surplussed, another broad arrow mark was stamped point to point with the original one. That is why it looks like you have a asterisk about the WD. The government inspector's mark was the crown over 13 over a letter. The makers mark, a set of scales on the other side of the blade, looks like a logo for Alexander Coppel of Solingen, Germany. The firm was in business from 1821 to 1999 according to my German sword book. The two banded Enfield, and thus its sword bayonet, were imported to America during the Civil War. I believe that both sides used them. The rule of thumb that I have heard is that if the blade has British inspector marks or the WD with broad arrow, it would not have been used during the American Civil War. I have also read that the British Navy required a modification of the barrel that made them so accurate that the army adopted this version and started getting rid of their existing stocks. All that said, I know even less about bayonets and rifles than I do about swords.
 
The Arabic looking sword right now the market is flooded with those from Vets coming back from Iraq and Afgan. My friend had one with jewels in the hilt but was disappointed he could not sell it at a good price. I laughed and told him to pry out the jewels and sell them to a Jeweler if he needs the money that bad and throw the sword in the dumpster! :bounce:
 

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