Move to Dillon's

[JohnG0609]

I know you are working from a pre-formed conclusion and trying to get the facts to confirm/conform to it.

I object, Your Honor.

I don't think that's fair or accurate. What pre-formed conclusion have I made? Do you mean to say I don't accept the common narrative so I'm fishing for facts to confirm my views? I think not.

I keep thinking of Occam's Razor as well: "the simplest explanation is usually the one closest to the truth."

I'm well aware of Occam's razor and for decades have used the colloquialism, "When in the forest and you hear hoofbeats, think horses and not zebras." The hoofbeats I hear are clear, the order was to move on the military road. Loring, Pemberton, and Thompson knew the location of the military road and Lockett's map shows it correctly placed (understanding it wasn't contemporaneous with the event). There was a serious deviation from that order and I don't think taking the position that the Turkey Creek road was the intended route from the inception is the correct one, at least not without further proof.

I don't find your opinion that the Turkey Creek road was the intended route in order to maneuver away from an unknown enemy force lurking to the Southeast to be a credible explanation for the deviation. That seems to be much farther away from Occam's razor than accepting the simple fact, that the army was ordered to move to Dillon's on the military road and somehow, some way, deviated from that order. Perhaps the map was right and Lockett was confused? Perhaps an overworked, overtaxed, exhausted Lockett is solely responsible for the deviation.

He had little to no cavalry. How could he know for sure that troops were not coming up?

Having little to no cavalry would make any move extraordinarily perilous. I don't see how the Turkey Creek Road route lessens that perilousness. On the contrary, I think it increases it. But I don't think it was lack of cavalry, Adams reported he had 800 men, but rather the application of the cavalry that is a contributing factor to this entire debacle.

The explanation of the deviation may be unknowable, but applying Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is an incompetent and/or incapacitated army commander, a dysfunctional command team, a toxic command climate, and an army on the verge of coming apart at the seams.

 

[JohnG0609]

Pemberton had nearly the mounted troops that Grant had, the question was quality and how he utilized them.

Interestingly I had just started to try to put together an OOB for the cavalry.
Adams reported 800 men:

Consisting of his regiment (or 6 companies) and an ad hoc battalion of Richardson:

I know there was one company of the 22nd Miss Infantry mounted, I assume Co B, Hinds Light Guards, Capt J.R. Russell commanding.

Any other units that you are aware of?

 

[alan polk]

What pre-formed conclusion have I made? Do you mean to say I don't accept the common narrative so I'm fishing for facts to confirm my views? I think not

Oops. I didn't mean to come across that way. Rather, I thought you were operating from a theory that was looking into possibly uncovering something that history and certain historical actors attempted to cover up concerning the Council of War on the 14th. I may have been wrong in that assumption. If so, apologies are in order.

Yeah, I agree that my reasoning for not moving down Military Road is a grand speculation. I was just trying to figure out reasons that the order would be ignored. I agree it's weak— though I suppose it's possible.

I could just as well speculate that the reason they intended to move down Military Road was to make it look good on paper to Johnston, while actually keeping themselves close to Edwards and to the road networks to their rear so as to keep them nearer to the Big Black and its vital crossings. This is actually closer to my theory of them trying to legally comply with Johnston's orders without really doing so.

 

[JohnG0609]

apologies are in order.

No apologies necessary brother. I love a good ole fashioned nerd fight. Besides, you know we Raymond boys go hard in the paint at each other and then sit around with a cold beer and re-fight the fight over again.

order would be ignored

Not ignored, deviated from.

I could just as well speculate that the reason....

You theoretically can add COAs ad infinitum but they, "must be suitable, feasible, acceptable, distinguishable, and complete." --Joint Publication 5-0 (Joint Planning).

my theory of them trying to legally comply with Johnston's orders without really doing so.

Do you think they were actually thinking along those lines or was Pemberton attempting to rationalize and justify his actions post-war?

 

[JohnG0609]

Interestingly I had just started to try to put together an OOB for the cavalry.
Adams reported 800 men:
View attachment 556678

Consisting of his regiment (or 6 companies) and an ad hoc battalion of Richardson:

View attachment 556679

I know there was one company of the 22nd Miss Infantry mounted, I assume Co B, Hinds Light Guards, Capt J.R. Russell commanding.

Any other units that you are aware of?

Added detail to OOB:

 

[JohnG0609]

As I understand it we are referring to it as "Turkey Creek Road" because that's what Grabau called it. I've not seen it named in any other place and it's not named on maps other than Lockett's. He only refers to it as the road "to Dillon's." Do you think it was actually the old Natchez Trace?

I ask because I think Bearss noted that it had fallen into disuse by 1863.

 

[alan polk]

Do you think they were actually thinking along those lines or was Pemberton attempting to rationalize and justify his actions post-war?

I have nothing to back it up. It is just my half-hearted speculation.

Personally, however, I do not think Pemberton attempted to overly rationalize his past actions in his unfinished memoir. I think he was smart enough to realize he could not afford to appear to be dong such. Johnston's post-war "Narrative" had thoroughly turned the public against him. When I think of rationalizing as such — or rationalizing for its own sake — I think of Johnston's "Narrative". Pemberton was behind the 8-ball, as they say. Of course, I think he definitely tried to put the best look on things, but I don't think it reached the level of rationalizing as seen in many others. Just my opinion. He knew the public would read his work with preformed prejudices, and that's why his memoir reads more like a legal brief than anything else.

 

[Mississippian1861]

Interestingly I had just started to try to put together an OOB for the cavalry.
Adams reported 800 men:
View attachment 556678

Consisting of his regiment (or 6 companies) and an ad hoc battalion of Richardson:

View attachment 556679

I know there was one company of the 22nd Miss Infantry mounted, I assume Co B, Hinds Light Guards, Capt J.R. Russell commanding.

Any other units that you are aware of?

It makes you wonder why Pemberton was mounting random units of infantry when he could have remounted one or two of the Missouri or Arkansas cavalry units in Green's Brigade.

 

[JohnG0609]

Missouri or Arkansas cavalry units in Green's Brigad

Bingo. A regiment and two battalions.

 

[lelliott19]

MODERATOR NOTE
The posts from three threads on this topic were merged into this one for ease of reference for anyone seeking information on this topic.

Former thread titles were:
Move to Dillon's
Move to Dillon's contd
Move to Dillon's Part 3

All posts combined now into thread entitled "Move to Dillon's" in the Vicksburg sub-Forum.