Move to Dillon's

I am a bit confused. And maybe I'm seeing things wrong, and if so, I ask forgiveness beforehand. But it seems to me you are assessing Pemberton's move to Dillon's as if the cause of that movement was based on the operational environment he thought existed between 5-11 and 5-14.

It certainly affected the movement but it did not cause the movement. And I think that is why I am having difficulty understanding the criteria you are using in your analysis.

As I see it, the actual cause of the movement was Johnston's order, which Pemberton received on the morning of the 14th—not the operational environment gleaned by him between May 11- May 14.

Otherwise, we are critiquing effects without acknowledging causation, which obviously runs the risk of making that critique incomplete or perhaps misleading.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about this thus far. And, again, maybe I'm missing something.
 
I am a bit confused. And maybe I'm seeing things wrong, and if so, I ask forgiveness beforehand. But it seems to me you are assessing Pemberton's move to Dillon's as if the cause of that movement was based on the operational environment he thought existed between 5-11 and 5-14.

It certainly affected the movement but it did not cause the movement. And I think that is why I am having difficulty understanding the criteria you are using in your analysis.

As I see it, the actual cause of the movement was Johnston's order, which Pemberton received on the morning of the 14th—not the operational environment gleaned by him between May 11- May 14.

Otherwise, we are critiquing effects without acknowledging causation, which obviously runs the risk of making that critique incomplete or perhaps misleading.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about this thus far. And, again, maybe I'm missing something.
His point was that it seemed Pemberton was pre-disposed to doing what Loring and the council of war "convinced" him to do.

We already know he at least stated that he wanted to strike Grant in flank or rear if he passed on the way to Jackson. You don't trust that he ever would, but that was his stated intention.

The other possible purpose would have been to break Grant's supply line, which of course Grant no longer had. The final supply train moved up with Blair and was in Raymond by the night of the 15th, but Pemberton didn't know that.
 
His point was that it seemed Pemberton was pre-disposed to doing what Loring and the council of war "convinced" him to do.

We already know he at least stated that he wanted to strike Grant in flank or rear if he passed on the way to Jackson. You don't trust that he ever would, but that was his stated intention.

The other possible purpose would have been to break Grant's supply line, which of course Grant no longer had. The final supply train moved up with Blair and was in Raymond by the night of the 15th, but Pemberton didn't know that.

Ok. That does help clear it up some.

I will add that, if I recall correctly, Blair's was not the last train to move up. I think it was maybe MacAuther? who was still moving from GG and in fact captured a lot of rebs retreating with Loring after Champion Hill near New Auburn.
 
Ok. That does help clear it up some.

I will add that, if I recall correctly, Blair's was not the last train to move up. I think it was maybe MacAuther? who was still moving from GG and in fact captured a lot of rebs retreating with Loring after Champion Hill near New Auburn.

Ransom (McPherson) joined the army prior to Champion Hill but was left behind at Raymond by McClernand.

Ewing (Sherman) was the one that ran headlong into Loring as he fumbled his way east.

But Blair escorted the last general supply train into Raymond on the 15th.
 
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I am a bit confused. And maybe I'm seeing things wrong, and if so, I ask forgiveness beforehand. But it seems to me you are assessing Pemberton's move to Dillon's as if the cause of that movement was based on the operational environment he thought existed between 5-11 and 5-14.

It certainly affected the movement but it did not cause the movement. And I think that is why I am having difficulty understanding the criteria you are using in your analysis.

As I see it, the actual cause of the movement was Johnston's order, which Pemberton received on the morning of the 14th—not the operational environment gleaned by him between May 11- May 14.

Otherwise, we are critiquing effects without acknowledging causation, which obviously runs the risk of making that critique incomplete or perhaps misleading.

Anyway, those are my thoughts about this thus far. And, again, maybe I'm missing something.

You're not confused and no forgiveness required. So just to make sure we are operating with the same definitions, the operational environment is the sum of all "the conditions, circumstances, and influences that effect the employment of capabilities and bear on the decisions of the commander." (emphasis added) Which is to say, that Johnston's order was an influence on the operational environment and not a separate event from it.

That being said, you make a very valid assertion that may very well be exactly right. But there are a few facts which may lend itself to a different interpretation:

1. 05/13 order for Loring to recon with an eye towards a move on enemy communications. So that shows he was considering a movement and could be considered to invalidate his claim that he opposed any forward movement.

2. 05/14 first reply to Johnston, from Bovina, is notable because it does not denote an objective. It just says, "I move at once with whole available force..." Then he lays out his current dispositions and concludes with the men are fatigued and expected to straggle. He also says he composed this dispatch immediately upon receipt of Johnstson's. This indicates to me that he had already decided to move.

3. The second 05/14 dispatch, after the Council of War, is when he specified the move to Dillon's. IIRC one present at the Council noted that both Loring and Stevenson advocated for the move on the communications, so maybe they are the ones that urged Dillon's as the objective.

But here I will throw my trump card. I am trained in the military planning process via academics, exercises, and operations. I've studied many hours and am practiced in the military decision making process.

And I will say categorically the move to Dillon's makes no military sense whatsoever. A butter bar Lieutenant could come up with a better thought out plan than this one. The products of planning are the same, whether they are conceived in the mind of John Pemberton or by a modern staff of hundreds and this plan deviates so far from reality that it ought not ever have seen the light of day. The objective of any military plan be it 1863 or 2025 is the "desired end state" or victory by whatever definition you assign victory, whether that be total annihilation, pushing them back across the territorial boundary, or enemy surrender. This move to Dillon's fails as a plan on so many levels its hard to list them all. But the bottom line is even Pemberton unintentionally confessed this was a very bad plan when in "Compelled..." he wrote on pp 120-121:

Screen Shot 2025-06-20 at 6.45.41 PM.png


We are supposed to believe that John Pemberton was so risk tolerant that he would move his three division mobile force away from Vicksburg on a hope? No way. Perhaps this is where Loring and Stevenson imposed their will on Pemberton to order the move to Dillon's. But that still leaves me with the question, "Why Dillon's?" That move does not accomplish either of the stated objectives, cut enemy communications and force him to attack. Nor does it accomplish the later added implied objective of attacking a detachment of the enemy. If its a failure in planning and a failure in military decision making then you have to look at human factors. Maybe Loring and Stevenson had something else in mind when they argued the move to Dillon's?

I include this quote from Chapter 1 of USMC MCPD 1-0 Warfighting, Chapter 1, which I attach as a pdf. I think you guys will find it an enlightening and informative read. Its very easy to read and not bogged down in dense jargon.

"However, we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event."
 

Attachments

You're not confused and no forgiveness required. So just to make sure we are operating with the same definitions, the operational environment is the sum of all "the conditions, circumstances, and influences that effect the employment of capabilities and bear on the decisions of the commander." (emphasis added) Which is to say, that Johnston's order was an influence on the operational environment and not a separate event from it.

That being said, you make a very valid assertion that may very well be exactly right. But there are a few facts which may lend itself to a different interpretation:

1. 05/13 order for Loring to recon with an eye towards a move on enemy communications. So that shows he was considering a movement and could be considered to invalidate his claim that he opposed any forward movement.

2. 05/14 first reply to Johnston, from Bovina, is notable because it does not denote an objective. It just says, "I move at once with whole available force..." Then he lays out his current dispositions and concludes with the men are fatigued and expected to straggle. He also says he composed this dispatch immediately upon receipt of Johnstson's. This indicates to me that he had already decided to move.

3. The second 05/14 dispatch, after the Council of War, is when he specified the move to Dillon's. IIRC one present at the Council noted that both Loring and Stevenson advocated for the move on the communications, so maybe they are the ones that urged Dillon's as the objective.

But here I will throw my trump card. I am trained in the military planning process via academics, exercises, and operations. I've studied many hours and am practiced in the military decision making process.

And I will say categorically the move to Dillon's makes no military sense whatsoever. A butter bar Lieutenant could come up with a better thought out plan than this one. The products of planning are the same, whether they are conceived in the mind of John Pemberton or by a modern staff of hundreds and this plan deviates so far from reality that it ought not ever have seen the light of day. The objective of any military plan be it 1863 or 2025 is the "desired end state" or victory by whatever definition you assign victory, whether that be total annihilation, pushing them back across the territorial boundary, or enemy surrender. This move to Dillon's fails as a plan on so many levels its hard to list them all. But the bottom line is even Pemberton unintentionally confessed this was a very bad plan when in "Compelled..." he wrote on pp 120-121:

View attachment 553234

We are supposed to believe that John Pemberton was so risk tolerant that he would move his three division mobile force away from Vicksburg on a hope? No way. Perhaps this is where Loring and Stevenson imposed their will on Pemberton to order the move to Dillon's. But that still leaves me with the question, "Why Dillon's?" That move does not accomplish either of the stated objectives, cut enemy communications and force him to attack. Nor does it accomplish the later added implied objective of attacking a detachment of the enemy. If its a failure in planning and a failure in military decision making then you have to look at human factors. Maybe Loring and Stevenson had something else in mind when they argued the move to Dillon's?

I include this quote from Chapter 1 of USMC MCPD 1-0 Warfighting, Chapter 1, which I attach as a pdf. I think you guys will find it an enlightening and informative read. Its very easy to read and not bogged down in dense jargon.

"However, we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event."
If Grant was maintaining a traditional supply line, would it not make sense to break it and force him to fall back?

The rain on the 14th was heavy, the roads were trash, Johnston was behind fortifications with 6,000 men and several thousands more on the way. Pemberton would have never expected to face Grant's main body on the 16th 28 miles away from Jackson.

Even as late as the 19th, if I remember correctly, he ordered Wirt Adams away from Vicksburg to play on Grant's flanks and rear to break his (non-existent) supply line.
 
How is breaking a dirt road accomplished? It's not burning a bridge or a depot or tearing up a track. Its only interdicted as long as they are sitting on top of it. As soon as they move away the supply line is back open, unless of course they literally dig the road up.

Objective 1 A move to Dillon's will cut enemy communications is an assumption. Could Grant not divert the wagons at Auburn over to the Utica-Raymond Road or divert the wagons from Rocky Springs to Utica and up the Raymond road? Or just wait until Pemberton moved off the Port Gibson road? Moving to Dillon's would only disrupt enemy communications not interdict it.

Objective 2 A move to Dillon's will compel the enemy to attack Pemberton is an assumption. What if they don't? Then what? What if instead they move towards BBR bridge? The heavy rain would have impacted Pemberton just as well as Grant and Pemberton admitted his army was fatigued and he feared would straggle badly. So the plan was to march on Dillon's, defeat an enemy detachment of unknown strength, and hustle back to defend BBR bridge? Or just find a spot with advantages of terrain and just hunker down and await attack? Where? For how long? Would Pemberton's own communications now be susceptible to being cut? If he marched to Dillon's from Edwards Depot via the Raymond Road and south along what I think is the old Natchez Trace, modern day Bill Strong Road, which I believe had fallen into disuse by 1863 what would have kept that detachment from marching up the Mt Moriah Road and marching into Edward's Depot while Pemberton sat at Dillon's awaiting attack.

The main body of the enemy is busy attacking Jackson and therefore will not be present to assist the detachment we hope is there for us to attack is an assumption. While that could have been true even without the betrayal of Johnston's dispatch to Grant, it still made no account for the close proximity of the 3 divisions of 13th Corps stretched out from Clinton to Raymond. Pemberton did have some awareness of the two divisions still on the Port Gibson road, Smith and Blair. But it's not clear to me how he knew that and how much fidelity the intel possessed. IIRC in "Compelled..." he referred to it as a division and possibly a corps. I believe he was hoping to intercept them while moving but had not pinned them to any location, which makes planning an attack extraordinarily difficult if you don't know where the enemy is.


I keep returning to the fact that Pemberton found out Sherman was east of BBR on 5/12 from Gregg->J Adams->Loring->Pemberton. That ought to have at least triggered something in Pemberton as he had not counted them in any planning scenario. The next day he learned (incorrectly) that Sherman was at Clinton with 4 divisions. He had already learned that he was facing Grant, McClernand, and McPherson. Certainly he had enough intel of the enemy to know that meant one army commander and two corps. He seemed not to understand the implication of now counting Sherman's corps. No commander in his right mind would order a forward movement unless he were operating on few knowns and lots of assumptions. The difference between the known and the assumed is military risk. That's a very big delta between what he knew, but didn't seem to understand and what he assumed, which was generally faulty. I just can't see how any commander in possession of his faculties could order a forward movement on what Pemberton knew. Entirely too much risk for Pemberton if he believed his foremost duty was to protect Vicksburg. This movement fails as a plan, it fails in decision making, and it fails in execution. It's literally a case study in how not to conduct operations. So we are left with human factors. If, in fact, Loring and Stevenson influenced Pemberton into moving to Dillon's then what were they really trying to accomplish? No matter who advocated for the move it was still a bad military move, unless the object was something else.

For Pemberton a forward movement was fraught with risk and, "we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event." The attempted move to Dillon's was that improbable event.
 
How is breaking a dirt road accomplished? It's not burning a bridge or a depot or tearing up a track. Its only interdicted as long as they are sitting on top of it. As soon as they move away the supply line is back open, unless of course they literally dig the road up.

Objective 1 A move to Dillon's will cut enemy communications is an assumption. Could Grant not divert the wagons at Auburn over to the Utica-Raymond Road or divert the wagons from Rocky Springs to Utica and up the Raymond road? Or just wait until Pemberton moved off the Port Gibson road? Moving to Dillon's would only disrupt enemy communications not interdict it.

Objective 2 A move to Dillon's will compel the enemy to attack Pemberton is an assumption. What if they don't? Then what? What if instead they move towards BBR bridge? The heavy rain would have impacted Pemberton just as well as Grant and Pemberton admitted his army was fatigued and he feared would straggle badly. So the plan was to march on Dillon's, defeat an enemy detachment of unknown strength, and hustle back to defend BBR bridge? Or just find a spot with advantages of terrain and just hunker down and await attack? Where? For how long? Would Pemberton's own communications now be susceptible to being cut? If he marched to Dillon's from Edwards Depot via the Raymond Road and south along what I think is the old Natchez Trace, modern day Bill Strong Road, which I believe had fallen into disuse by 1863 what would have kept that detachment from marching up the Mt Moriah Road and marching into Edward's Depot while Pemberton sat at Dillon's awaiting attack.

The main body of the enemy is busy attacking Jackson and therefore will not be present to assist the detachment we hope is there for us to attack is an assumption. While that could have been true even without the betrayal of Johnston's dispatch to Grant, it still made no account for the close proximity of the 3 divisions of 13th Corps stretched out from Clinton to Raymond. Pemberton did have some awareness of the two divisions still on the Port Gibson road, Smith and Blair. But it's not clear to me how he knew that and how much fidelity the intel possessed. IIRC in "Compelled..." he referred to it as a division and possibly a corps. I believe he was hoping to intercept them while moving but had not pinned them to any location, which makes planning an attack extraordinarily difficult if you don't know where the enemy is.


I keep returning to the fact that Pemberton found out Sherman was east of BBR on 5/12 from Gregg->J Adams->Loring->Pemberton. That ought to have at least triggered something in Pemberton as he had not counted them in any planning scenario. The next day he learned (incorrectly) that Sherman was at Clinton with 4 divisions. He had already learned that he was facing Grant, McClernand, and McPherson. Certainly he had enough intel of the enemy to know that meant one army commander and two corps. He seemed not to understand the implication of now counting Sherman's corps. No commander in his right mind would order a forward movement unless he were operating on few knowns and lots of assumptions. The difference between the known and the assumed is military risk. That's a very big delta between what he knew, but didn't seem to understand and what he assumed, which was generally faulty. I just can't see how any commander in possession of his faculties could order a forward movement on what Pemberton knew. Entirely too much risk for Pemberton if he believed his foremost duty was to protect Vicksburg. This movement fails as a plan, it fails in decision making, and it fails in execution. It's literally a case study in how not to conduct operations. So we are left with human factors. If, in fact, Loring and Stevenson influenced Pemberton into moving to Dillon's then what were they really trying to accomplish? No matter who advocated for the move it was still a bad military move, unless the object was something else.

For Pemberton a forward movement was fraught with risk and, "we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event." The attempted move to Dillon's was that improbable event.
Isn't that the point of offensive operations: don't leave your enemy with choices, leave them with dilemmas. That forces them to make mistakes.

After Raymond (and the resulting forgone result at Jackson), Pemberton wasn't left with any good options. Everything he could have done short of fleeing to Canton between the Big Black and Yazoo was a risk.
 
1. 05/13 order for Loring to recon with an eye towards a move on enemy communications. So that shows he was considering a movement and could be considered to invalidate his claim that he opposed any forward movement.

I think this is a very good point and certainly refutes any categorical claim that Pemberton was opposed to any movement, such as the one contemplated toward Dillon's. I don't disagree with that observation.

His movement's across the Big Black itself proves he was willing to shift forces, even with limited cavalry. He did so to keep open his line of communication to Jackson and for the reinforcements from Jackson. But it also provided him the opportunity to get nearer the enemy's line of communication in Hinds County.

Again, it seems everybody forgets that Pemberton actually understood Grant's ultimate objective: Vicksburg. And to get at Vicksburg he had to get to Snyder's. To get to Snyder's he had to cross the Big Black. But it was precisely because of his lack of cavalry that he was not disposed to make hasty movements which would take him too far away from the high ground at Edwards or the ferries along the Big Black.

In fact, his May 13 recon message to Loring, which you cite, was accompanied by narrow conditions that had to be met before Pemberton even considered such a move. Without sufficient cavalry, the conditions placed on Loring to justify any move were going to be difficult to meet.

Any movements he was willing to make from Edwards (for example, his May 13 recon message to Loring as well as the Dillon move) were always going to be limited toward Grant's line of communication, not further eastward from his base at Edwards.

2. 05/14 first reply to Johnston, from Bovina, is notable because it does not denote an objective. It just says, "I move at once with whole available force..." Then he lays out his current dispositions and concludes with the men are fatigued and expected to straggle. He also says he composed this dispatch immediately upon receipt of Johnstson's. This indicates to me that he had already decided to move.

But you leave out the part that says: "In directing this move, I do not think you fully comprehend the position that Vicksburg will be left in, but I comply at once with your order."

This does not indicate to me that Pemberton had "already decided to move." Rather, it reveals a commander who is increasingly recognizing the risks and that his intelligence was even worse than he had thought and that Johnston's interpretation of events was possibly even worse.

Feeling that Grant would inevitably return to maneuver against the Big Black (Johnston thinks Grant is going to fortify Jackson) probably reinforced Pemberton's instincts to remain at Edwards or to retreat back across the Big Black and defend that line.


3. The second 05/14 dispatch, after the Council of War, is when he specified the move to Dillon's. IIRC one present at the Council noted that both Loring and Stevenson advocated for the move on the communications, so maybe they are the ones that urged Dillon's as the objective.

I agree with this. But it also reveals that everyone there likely viewed Johnston's order as suicidal. But for whatever reason, most apparently felt they were under the compulsion to comply.

The eyewitness you cite also stated to Pemberton, after the fact, that his recollection of the counsel was that there was a feeling that if he did not move or do something he would lose the confidence of the men in the army. His recollection was that Pemberton had no choice— or risk losing all confidence.

The move on Dillon's, then, (or anywhere else for that matter) was not something "already" underway — at least underway in Pemberton's mind —on the morning of the 14th, as you imply in #2 above. Or at least that is how I am interpreting the situation.

Isn't that the point of offensive operations: don't leave your enemy with choices, leave them with dilemmas. That forces them to make mistakes.

I think this is exactly what Pemberton realized and was trying to avoid. And is why he understood his best course was to hold near Edwards or fall back to the Big Black. Johnston's May 13 order played right into Grant's hand.

Had Pemberton remained at Edwards or at line of the Big Black, the ensuing battle would have likely resembled the slaughter seen in the eastern theater. The casualties Grant received later on the 19th and 22nd tends to strengthen that claim.

Pemberton's greatest failure was to be influenced to move against his better judgement. He probably should've risked losing the confidence of the army by disobeying Johnston's order. But instead, it appears Pemberton had finally lost confidence in himself.

My point in all this is not that Pemberton was a genius. My point is that he was not necessarily "incompetent." That word is too strong and overused in my opinion. One must always consider who Pemberton was facing. That Pemberton was incompetent is a narrative that has been carried forth successfully by historians who relied on narratives supplied largely by factions opposed to Pemberton during the war. Interestingly enough, it has also been used to discredit Grant's abilities.

These things end up as footnotes. And footnotes, if unexamined, become like original sin. It just carries forward to future generations.

But to sustain this over the decades, historians have —sometimes unconsciously— had to make facts, especially newly discovered facts, conform to the narrative instead of new facts changing the narrative. What this inevitably leads to are facts being ignored altogether, or the continued creation of narratives where conclusions are already hidden in the premises.

As I reread this thread, watching it evolve, there seems to be the risk of a narrative developing which already had an imbedded conclusion from the get-go in the premises— that of: "Pemberton was incompetent. Therefore, premises considered, Pemberton was incompetent."

But I've certainly enjoyed the back and forth. And I have certainly learned a lot.
 
As I reread this thread, watching it evolve, there seems to be the risk of a narrative developing which already had an imbedded conclusion from the get-go in the premises— that of: "Pemberton was incompetent. Therefore, premises considered, Pemberton was incompetent."
That's a fair assessment. I can see myself with a bias against Pemberton. He did many things well, but I do think he was incompetent, not for the reasons you may think though. I'm also not staking out any position for or against. What I've been attempting is to apply analytical tools from current doctrine to the examination of a Civil War campaign. I'm not aware of a methodology that fits that can do that so I feel like I'm kind of inventing one as I go along. For example, the Council of War is analogous to the modern day COA decision step in modern planning doctrine, in which the "commander leads a discussion with the staff and subordinates about the relative merits of each COA." From there I'm trying to reverse engineer the COA development-analysis process.

I very much enjoy the conversations! Interacting with you and Tony is like having your own AI machine. I very much appreciate the collaboration and hope that is always the goal. For all of us to learn more!
 
Isn't that the point of offensive operations: don't leave your enemy with choices, leave them with dilemmas. That forces them to make mistakes.

After Raymond (and the resulting forgone result at Jackson), Pemberton wasn't left with any good options. Everything he could have done short of fleeing to Canton between the Big Black and Yazoo was a risk.
That sounds like Sun Tzu but I'm not 100% sure.

The point of offensive operations is to seize, retain, and exploit the initiative to defeat the enemy and prevail in war. I think what you're describing is military deception, defined as, "actions executed to deliberately mislead adversary decision makers, thereby causing the adversary to take specific actions (or inactions) that will contribute to the accomplishment of the friendly mission." Deception operations would be in support of a larger campaign strategy and not the strategy itself.

Yes, military operations are inherently risky. You can't eliminate risk. The greater the reward, the greater the risk. but I keep coming back to this, ""However, we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event."
 
That's a fair assessment. I can see myself with a bias against Pemberton. He did many things well, but I do think he was incompetent, not for the reasons you may think though. I'm also not staking out any position for or against. What I've been attempting is to apply analytical tools from current doctrine to the examination of a Civil War campaign. I'm not aware of a methodology that fits that can do that so I feel like I'm kind of inventing one as I go along. For example, the Council of War is analogous to the modern day COA decision step in modern planning doctrine, in which the "commander leads a discussion with the staff and subordinates about the relative merits of each COA." From there I'm trying to reverse engineer the COA development-analysis process.

I very much enjoy the conversations! Interacting with you and Tony is like having your own AI machine. I very much appreciate the collaboration and hope that is always the goal. For all of us to learn more!

That's fair enough and it helps me better understand (and to remind me) that you are using different parameters established by modern military theory to judge past military events and/or competencies—although it might help (especially for folks who are merely peeking in and following along but not engaging) for you to periodically remind us of the fact, especially where it might conflict with normal understanding of historical interpretation.

But the other thing I would respectfully suggest is to be wary of unintentionally (or hastily) commingling two different interpretive frameworks to arrive at a single definition of incompetency. Although it can be done, it can also be very, very tricky. In other words—and for a lame example, I guess— Newtonian mechanics replaced Aristotelian physics, but the Newtonian framework did not turn around and accuse Aristotle and Plato of "incompetency." They certainly could have tried, but doing so would've committed logical fallacies, since it would have involved judging one framework by the standards of another.

Anyhow, I'm enjoying your thread and look forward to your continued examination!
 
That sounds like Sun Tzu but I'm not 100% sure.

The point of offensive operations is to seize, retain, and exploit the initiative to defeat the enemy and prevail in war. I think what you're describing is military deception, defined as, "actions executed to deliberately mislead adversary decision makers, thereby causing the adversary to take specific actions (or inactions) that will contribute to the accomplishment of the friendly mission." Deception operations would be in support of a larger campaign strategy and not the strategy itself.

Yes, military operations are inherently risky. You can't eliminate risk. The greater the reward, the greater the risk. but I keep coming back to this, ""However, we should clearly understand that the acceptance of risk does not equate to the imprudent willingness to gamble the entire likelihood of success on a single improbable event."
I think I read that in a Robert Greene book, but he channels some Sun Tzu in his books.

I'm just pointing out that Pemberton really didn't have good options after Raymond, not even option D "do nothing." Grant had massive cavalry superiority and access to eight Big Black River crossings spanning 30 miles, six of which followed interior lines from Bolton / Brownsville.

I think his faulty assumptions were: 1) Grant was trailing AJ Smith at Dillon's to keep open a supply line to Grand Gulf. 2) Johnston would attempt to hold Jackson. 3) Grant's main body would need a few days to reduce Jackson, then a couple days to countermarch to meet the threat. 4) If AJ Smith found himself beset by Pemberton's main body, Grant would countermarch down his line of supply back to Raymond, splitting his force between Jackson and Raymond or abandon the attempt to take Jackson altogether. If the latter, Pemberton could withdraw back to Edwards again before the main body could engage.

In hindsight, maybe his best option for moving forward would be to leave a brigade at Edwards, burn every bridge over Bakers Creek, and occupy a line from Queen's Hill to Brownsville? That would put him in proximity to Johnston and deny Grant interior lines to the Big Black.
 
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That's fair enough and it helps me better understand (and to remind me) that you are using different parameters established by modern military theory to judge past military events and/or competencies—although it might help (especially for folks who are merely peeking in and following along but not engaging) for you to periodically remind us of the fact, especially where it might conflict with normal understanding of historical interpretation.

But the other thing I would respectfully suggest is to be wary of unintentionally (or hastily) commingling two different interpretive frameworks to arrive at a single definition of incompetency. Although it can be done, it can also be very, very tricky. In other words—and for a lame example, I guess— Newtonian mechanics replaced Aristotelian physics, but the Newtonian framework did not turn around and accuse Aristotle and Plato of "incompetency." They certainly could have tried, but doing so would've committed logical fallacies, since it would have involved judging one framework by the standards of another.

Anyhow, I'm enjoying your thread and look forward to your continued examination!
I don't know if it's different, it's just expanded. It all boils down to center of gravity theory, which was more or less present in Jomini, coined but left amorphously defined in Clausewitz, and is still very much up for debate today as to what it all means and if it's still relevant.

The simplest method for COG analysis is the Godzilla method, and as he pointed out even if you Godzilla stomp AJ Smith at Dillon's it doesn't stop Grant. I'm not convinced any target at this point would.

IMO Pemberton lost when he failed to recognize that Jackson was his center of gravity until the 11th and made a belated attempt to protect it by pushing troops forward to Raymond. Instead, he could have had Buford march to Raymond from Jackson days earlier and dig in on Fourteen Mile Creek.

Once Grant Godzilla stomps Jackson, it's over. 😃
 
Yep, it seems we have once again hit our eternal impasse of ways of interpreting historical data— that muddled place where things turn on themselves and become circular.

So, I will just offer this and then let the theories and modalities continue.

You said:

I'm just pointing out that Pemberton really didn't have good options after Raymond, not even option D "do nothing." Grant had massive cavalry superiority and access to eight Big Black River crossings spanning 30 miles, six of which followed interior lines from Bolton / Brownsville.

This absolutely and positively ignores the logistical risks Grant had taken to move on Jackson without a stable line of communication back to GG. It also ignores the reality Grant was facing on the ground at the time (between, say, May 12-17 or so) regarding the feeding of his army through a desolated region while also husbanding enough ammunition to force a crossing of the Big Black. I think Grant even said he had only enough ammunition for one large battle east of the Big Black, and we now know from history (even Yankee diaries) that some of Sherman's men were already going without food as they approached the Big Black on the 17th and 18th. Time and dwindling resources were serious factors for Grant.

To hand wave that away and conclude that Pemberton had no options after the fall of Jackson is as puzzling to me as it gets. I can't help but suspect that doing so presupposes a belief on your part that certain realities were not, in fact, realities at all. Otherwise, one would at least mention it or maybe even deal with it in ways other than saying Grant had cavalry to cover 30 miles of crossings on the Big Black— as if Grant had all the time in the world to fight battles or that his men were not threatened with the possibility of starvation.

The possible consequences of delaying Grant 2 or so days at the Big Black ought to be seriously faced and honestly examined. I mean, was it not a reality existing independent of human subjectivity?

Maybe I'm wrong about this.

I'm not saying Grant was destined to lose or Pemberton was some sort of genius, but to outright ignore the existence of those factors as being unavailable to Pemberton baffles me.

I believe an honest appraisal of events at the time reveals that Pemberton, in fact, had very real options remaining to him after the fall of Jackson— even after this "Godzilla" of which you speak stomped on it. 😀
 
Yep, it seems we have once again hit our eternal impasse of ways of interpreting historical data— that muddled place where things turn on themselves and become circular.

So, I will just offer this and then let the theories and modalities continue.

You said:



This absolutely and positively ignores the logistical risks Grant had taken to move on Jackson without a stable line of communication back to GG. It also ignores the reality Grant was facing on the ground at the time (between, say, May 12-17 or so) regarding the feeding of his army through a desolated region while also husbanding enough ammunition to force a crossing of the Big Black. I think Grant even said he had only enough ammunition for one large battle east of the Big Black, and we now know from history (even Yankee diaries) that some of Sherman's men were already going without food as they approached the Big Black on the 17th and 18th. Time and dwindling resources were serious factors for Grant.

To hand wave that away and conclude that Pemberton had no options after the fall of Jackson is as puzzling to me as it gets. I can't help but suspect that doing so presupposes a belief on your part that certain realities were not, in fact, realities at all. Otherwise, one would at least mention it or maybe even deal with it in ways other than saying Grant had cavalry to cover 30 miles of crossings on the Big Black— as if Grant had all the time in the world to fight battles or that his men were not threatened with the possibility of starvation.

The possible consequences of delaying Grant 2 or so days at the Big Black ought to be seriously faced and honestly examined. I mean, was it not a reality existing independent of human subjectivity?

Maybe I'm wrong about this.

I'm not saying Grant was destined to lose or Pemberton was some sort of genius, but to outright ignore the existence of those factors as being unavailable to Pemberton baffles me.

I believe an honest appraisal of events at the time reveals that Pemberton, in fact, had very real options remaining to him after the fall of Jackson— even after this "Godzilla" of which you speak stomped on it. 😀
The area north of the railroad was a treasure trove of untapped food and fodder. Sherman lacked forageable food because his path had always followed other armies, but I've never seen a first-hand account from XIII or XVII corps of troops expressing hunger, nor a lack of ammo (even after Champion Hill). I especially question the ammo thing because Grant engaged in four battles prior to the resupply route being opened from the Yazoo (16th, 17th, 19th, 22nd).
 
The area north of the railroad was a treasure trove of untapped food and fodder. Sherman lacked forageable food because his path had always followed other armies, but I've never seen a first-hand account from XIII or XVII corps of troops expressing hunger, nor a lack of ammo (even after Champion Hill). I especially question the ammo thing because Grant engaged in four battles prior to the resupply route being opened from the Yazoo (16th, 17th, 19th, 22nd).

None of this negates the central points I made, though it goes a long way in wishing away potential complexities in order to maintain your position.
 
"We must fight the enemy before our rations fail..." -US Grant
That was on the 11th, I believe it wasn't until the 23rd that the supply depot at Lake Plantation was in operation distributing rations to Sherman, not sure how long until they had viable routes to McPherson and McClernand. That's 12 days, and Grant's men were sometimes covering 20 miles per day.

Here's a map of the road networks and river crossings north of the railroad. Distance from Queen's Hill to several of them is in the five mile range.

IMG_5626.jpeg
 
That was on the 11th, I believe it wasn't until the 23rd that the supply depot at Lake Plantation was in operation distributing rations to Sherman, not sure how long until they had viable routes to McPherson and McClernand. That's 12 days, and Grant's men were sometimes covering 20 miles per day.

Here's a map of the road networks and river crossings north of the railroad. Distance from Queen's Hill to several of them is in the five mile range.

View attachment 553572
By the way, LOL at Henry's Ford.

Also, googling for anti bank Mississippi is a hit and miss affair unless you include the word village. It attempts to find some anti-bank movement or conspiracy. 😃

Apparently Antibank was the farthest upstream port for steamboats during high water.
 

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