Hooker quite capable at Brandy Station

[Belfoured]

prepping for Gettysburg --Joseph Hooker January 26 to June 28 --Meade 3 days --

Exactly. Meade assumed command of a scattered army during an invasion by the enemy and within three days fought a major battle on ground that he hadn't had the luxury of selecting in advance and he won. In other words, confronted by a difficult situation, he didn't suddenly become intimidated by the enemy (compare to April 30) and then choke (compare to May 4). As it always has, leadership in battle matters.

 

[rpkennedy]

It's remarkable how quickly Meade put the Pipe Creek plan together.

That said, multiple contingencies? In the sense that two is technically multiple. Keep pushing forward to find Lee or fall back to concentrate on a specific defensive position.

Meade would also show a lack of contingency planning the rest of his time commanding the AOTP.

Meade had both offensive and defensive plans ready, depending on circumstances. That's what I meant when I said "multiple contingencies" but you are correct, it was only two. That said, most previous army commanders struggled to come up with one solid plan, much less two.

Ryan

 

[rpkennedy]

prepping for Gettysburg --Joseph Hooker January 26 to June 28 --Meade 3 days --

Even during the run-up to Gettysburg, Hooker was not preparing for a battle. He was half-heartedly moving north while complaining that he wasn't getting what he wanted from the administration.

Ryan

 

[New Haven]

You have a refreshingly "unique" view of military success. It looks like we need to revise a whole lot of history. I'm starting with Hirohito was better than Nimitz because "his army" really won at Guadalcanal. Look at all the casualties they inflicted.

OK instead of addressing my post we need to some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

 

[121st PA Vols]

So? A number of Confederate regiments suffered their worst casualties at Malvern Hill. Does that reflect the ferocity of McClellan?

IMO, you are attempting to give Hooker credit for things in which he had a fairly minimal hand. Yes, he rebuilt the army after the catastrophe of Fredericksburg and the Mud March when the army was threatening to disintegrate. That said, he fought the army poorly at Chancellorsville once his initial plan was scuppered and his pursuit of Lee north was lackluster. Hooker had no real plan of action while Meade had multiple contingencies within 24 hours of taking command. It definitely shows a contrast between Hooker and Meade.

Ryan

Damned well put !

 

[rpkennedy]

OK instead of addressing my post we need to some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

You can basically make the casualty argument for both sides on every battlefield. Both sides bled their officer corps white with the difference being that the US had a much larger population from which to draw.

Ryan

 

[Belfoured]

OK instead of addressing my post we need to some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

You don't understand the difference between "whataboutism" and critique of a theory regarding how to evaluate military success.

 

[jackt62]

To put it mildly, "brimming with confidence" is over valued on many occasions. In fact, some times it's a cover for the opposite ...

"Confident language by a military commander is not usually regarded as evidence of competency."
General Joseph Johnston, July 17, 1864

 

[CowCavalry]

You don't understand the difference between "whataboutism" and critique of a theory regarding how to evaluate military success.

We need to rewrite the history books again, turns out that Hooker won the battles of Chancellorsville AND Gettysburg. Quite a feat at Gettysburg, since he wasn't even present.

 

[rpkennedy]

We need to rewrite the history books again, turns out that Hooker won the battles of Chancellorsville AND Gettysburg. Quite a feat at Gettysburg, since he wasn't even present.

That didn't stop him from winning at Brandy Station.

Ryan

 

[New Haven]

Damned well put !

I hold the steadfast position that Frederiksberg was the Confederate "high water" mark in December of 1862. Lee lost Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. I would be glad to have a point by point discussion of any of my positions. For starters this is NOT what has been taught by the Lost Cause Mythmakers for 160 years. The American Battlefield Trust has begun to shine a little light on Chancellorsville.
OK instead of addressing my post we need to do some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

You don't understand the difference between "whataboutism" and critique of a theory regarding how to evaluate military success.

What time did Jackson start his flank march on May 2, 1863? Asking for a friend.

 

[Belfoured]

I hold the steadfast position that Frederiksberg was the Confederate "high water" mark in December of 1862. Lee lost Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. I would be glad to have a point by point discussion of any of my positions. For starters this is NOT what has been taught by the Lost Cause Mythmakers for 160 years. The American Battlefield Trust has begun to shine a little light on Chancellorsville.
OK instead of addressing my post we need to do some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

What time did Jackson start his flank march on May 2, 1863? Asking for a friend.

What time did Jackson start his flank march on May 2, 1863? Asking for a friend.

Ask Joe's friend Dirty Dan Sickles. He saw it first. Not that he, Joe, Otis, et al figured out what was actually up until the routed XI Corps were "advancing" in the wrong direction.

Now it's your turn: what bold, aggressive action did Fearless Fighting Joe take against his vastly outnumbered opponent on May 4 to make his "victory" decisive?

 

[Belfoured]

That didn't stop him from winning at Brandy Station.

Ryan

So far we've been able to limit Hooker's victories to Gettysburg. It doesn't take too much to get this all the way out to Appomattox. Hooker was a master at multi-tasking, by the way. He drove Lee from the Rapidan to Petersburg while also propelling Sherman to from the Chattanooga area to Atlanta.

 

[dlofting]

I think it would help if the OP could clarify what he/she is trying to show. Is it....

1. That Hooker was a better army commander than history gives him credit for

2. That Hooker actually won at Chancellorsville

3. That Hooker deserves credit for the Union victory at Gettysburg

4. That Hooker was directly responsible for the Union performance at Brandy Station

5. That Jackson's flank attack should not have been carried out due to the late hour

6. That it was Jackson's fault that he attacked the XI corps in a bad place i.e
The Wilderness

7. That something bad happened to the unit whose men accidentally shot Jackson

8. That Jackson's amputated arm should not have been buried

9. That the dead soldiers who made Jackson's charge weren't buried

With so many potential balls in the air it's almost impossible to know which to comment on

 

[Belfoured]

I think it would help if the OP could clarify what he/she is trying to show. Is it....

1. That Hooker was a better army commander than history gives him credit for

2. That Hooker actually won at Chancellorsville

3. That Hooker deserves credit for the Union victory at Gettysburg

4. That Hooker was directly responsible for the Union performance at Brandy Station

5. That Jackson's flank attack should not have been carried out due to the late hour

6. That it was Jackson's fault that he attacked the XI corps in a bad place i.e
The Wilderness

7. That something bad happened to the unit whose men accidentally shot Jackson

8. That Jackson's amputated arm should not have been buried

9. That the dead soldiers who made Jackson's charge weren't buried

With so many potential balls in the air it's almost impossible to know which to comment on

In other words, so many targets and so little space. I'm awaiting the post pointing out that ladies in a certain line of work were called "hookers" and not "meades".

 

[Jantzen64]

I hold the steadfast position that Frederiksberg was the Confederate "high water" mark in December of 1862. Lee lost Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. I would be glad to have a point by point discussion of any of my positions. For starters this is NOT what has been taught by the Lost Cause Mythmakers for 160 years. The American Battlefield Trust has begun to shine a little light on Chancellorsville.
OK instead of addressing my post we need to do some "whataboutism" first. Instead let's take apart my comments one by one. Could we begin with the effect fratricide has on unit cohesion? The Lost Cause Mythmakers have had a 150 years head start on me, but if I persist I can get them to tell me why Jackson's arm gets a grave of its own, but there is no grave for members of his attacking party. I am also very curious why anyone thinks it is "brilliant" to march men all day and then launch an attack one hour before sundown in the Wilderness, of all places. There is no grave for these people just Jackson' arm. This is Jackson's "Butcher Bill " for May 2, 1863. It gets worse the next day because Jackson has left his army in the worst possible place with his "brilliant flank march".
Studying Chancellorsville May 2, 1863, I am thinking I found the reason Jackson was held up until dark. It was near Dowdall's Tavern that Union Col. Adolphus Buschbeck set up his defensive line, today remembered as the Buschbeck Line, causing Jackson a significant delay, thus slowing the momentum of Jackson's attack. The order of battle shows some significant Confederate casualties for the initial attacking units isolated to the May 2 attack. These were not part of Jackson's, or A.P. Hill "night recon" parties. The good news is that the American Battlefield Trust (ABT) and the Central Virginia Battlefields Trust (CVBT) have partnered to preserve the area. I know a lot of you had relatives there and let me know if you are related to any of them. Here's the list:

Rodes' (D.H. Hill's) Division May 2 1863

Major David Rowe (mw 5/2) 12th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Philip Cook (w 5/2) 4th Georgia Infantry Regiment
Colonel Thomas W. Garrett (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Major William J. Hill (w 5/2) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Captain Speight B. West (w) 5th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas F. Toon (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Nelson Slough (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Major John S. Brooks (w 5/2) 20th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General Stephen D. Ramseur (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William Cox (w 5/2) 2nd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Edward A. O'Neal (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel E. Lafayette Hobson (w 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Captain W. T. Renfro (mw 5/2) 5th Alabama Infantry Regiment
Lieutenant Colonel John S. Garvin (w 5/2) 26th Alabama Infantry Regiment

A.P. Hill's Division, May 2, 1863

Major General Ambrose Powell Hill (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Henry Heth (w 5/2)
Brigadier General Dorsey Pender (w 5/2)
Captain S. D. Stewart (k) 5th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel James Aiked (w 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Major John T. Smith (k 5/2) 13th Alabama Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel John A. Fite (w 5/2) 7th Tennessee Infantry
Colonel William McComb (w 5/2) 14th Tennessee Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Fleet W. Cox (w 5/2) 40th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Francis Mallory (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William S. Christian (w 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Major Andrew D. Saunders (k 5/2) 55th Virginia Infantry
Colonel Edward G. Haywood (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Junius L. Hill (k 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Major William L. Davidson (w 5/2) 7th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Thomas J. Purdie (k 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Forney George (w 5/2) 18th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel Mark M. Avery (w 5/2) 33rd North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William M. Barbour (w 5/2) 37th North Carolina Infantry
Brigadier General J Samuel McGowan (w 5/2)
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2)
Colonel James M. Perrin (mw 5/2) 1st South Carolina Rifle
Colonel Oliver E. Edwards (mw 5/2) 13th South Carolina Infantry
Colonel Alfred M. Scales (w 5/2) 13th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Colonel William A. Stowe (w 5/2) 16th North Carolina Infantry
Lieutenant Colonel Christopher C. Cole (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Major Laben Odell (k 5/2) 22nd North Carolina Infantry
Captain Greenlee Davidson (mw 5/2) Richmond Letcher (VA) Artillery

What time did Jackson start his flank march on May 2, 1863? Asking for a friend.

I'm really not sure what position you're advocating for. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that fratricide happens or that it has a bad impact on morale, but I don't see any relevance to that issue to the question of whether Joe Hooker - not Meade - really won at Gettysburg. You keep making reference to "Lost Causers". I can assure you that the folks you are sparring with are in no way "Lost Causers". As @121st PA Vols pointed out, there are a lot of very thoughtful and well-informed folks on this board, who are most interested in discussing the facts and who also recognize the negative impact that the Lost Cause has had on Civil War historiography. You raise some interesting points about Fredericksburg - I'd love to hear more, but, respectfully, all the stuff about fratricide and Joe Hooker winning at Gettysburg are getting in the way. (BTW, as to Hooker, I do think he deserves more respect for rebuilding the AotP and for a well thought out plan for Chancellorsville - Sears, for one, works offers a more well-balanced view of him. But it is not "whataboutism" to point out Hooker's failures at critical points during the battle, especially given his pre-battle boasts!)

 

[Eric Wittenberg]

I admit to being completely mystified as to what OP's point is here. If it was to prove that he's a Hooker fanboy, he has succeeded. Beyond that, I have no clue what the point is, other than that giving Hooker credit for anything involving Brandy Station other than to order Pleasonton to attack is grossly inappropriate.

And Lee lost Chancellorsville? Seriously?

 

[jackt62]

Lee lost Chancellorsville and Gettysburg. I would be glad to have a point by point discussion of any of my positions. For starters this is NOT what has been taught by the Lost Cause Mythmakers for 160 years.

I must admit that I've not come across the claim that Lee "lost" Chancellorsville. Perhaps you really mean that Chancellorsville was a "pyhrric" victory for the Confederacy but even that may be not be the appropriate term. From a purely military standpoint, there is little dispute about the battle's outcome; thwarting Hooker's offensive plan and bringing about the withdrawal of the AotP to its starting point across the Rappahanock River resulted in the ANV retaining command of the field the day after, and the total foiling of Hooker's objective. But Lee understood that without being able to deliver a body blow to the AotP, it retained enough strength to recover and fight again another day. That, and the grievous casualties suffered by the ANV that continued to diminish its manpower may be a more descriptive measure of Chancellorsville than to simply say Lee lost. As teaching by the Lost Cause "Mythmakers" is apropos of nothing, I have no comment.

 

[neyankee61]

Give Hooker credit. He was a fine Division commander in the III Corps. He led his own Corps well at Antietam and was against Burnsides attack at Fredericksburg. He rebuilt the AoP after the Mud March. He made pretty good plans for the Chancellorsville Campaign. Out West he led the XX Corps quite well. He failed at Chancellorsville because when Lee called, Hooker folded. And he couldn't keep his mouth shut. In addition his reputation in the Old Army never went away. Both Grant and Sherman had to carry this "Old Army" baggage but it seems both were unable to get around "Fighting Joe's". Don't tell me O O Howard was a better choice to replace McPherson!

 

[Belfoured]

Give Hooker credit. He was a fine Division commander in the III Corps. He led his own Corps well at Antietam and was against Burnsides attack at Fredericksburg. He rebuilt the AoP after the Mud March. He made pretty good plans for the Chancellorsville Campaign. Out West he led the XX Corps quite well. He failed at Chancellorsville because when Lee called, Hooker folded. And he couldn't keep his mouth shut. In addition his reputation in the Old Army never went away. Both Grant and Sherman had to carry this "Old Army" baggage but it seems both were unable to get around "Fighting Joe's". Don't tell me O O Howard was a better choice to replace McPherson!

Don't tell me O O Howard was a better choice to replace McPherson!

Howard was a better choice to replace McPherson - especially from the perspective of an army group CO who doesn't need to keep watch on one of his CO's to make sure he isn't succumbing to his predeliction for using back channels to undermine, etc etc. Howard actually seems to have performed competently in the role. And if anybody had a legitimate beef it wasn't Hooker - it may have been Logan. So Joe picked up his toys and left the sandbox. Probably not a major hurdle that Sherman then had to overcome.