Chattanooga Hooker at Chattanooga

[Krieger]

Chattanooga is one of my favorite battles, but also one of the most confusing due to the bickering between Grant and Thomas. My understanding of what Hooker was supposed to do, according to Grant's plan, was to demonstrate against Bragg's left but otherwise not to attack so that he could cut off the Confederate army at Ringgold Gap once Sherman and Thomas had pushed them off of Missionary Ridge. But then I think Thomas ordered Hooker to attack at Rossville Gap without consulting Grant?

Would appreciate some clarification here. I think in Grant's memoirs he claimed to have planned for Hooker to attack at Rossville Gap, but I can also see that as an attempt to "clean up" the battle to make it look like the simple glorious victory everyone thought it was without getting into the ugliness happening between the generals.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Chattanooga is one of my favorite battles, but also one of the most confusing due to the bickering between Grant and Thomas. My understanding of what Hooker was supposed to do, according to Grant's plan, was to demonstrate against Bragg's left but otherwise not to attack so that he could cut off the Confederate army at Ringgold Gap once Sherman and Thomas had pushed them off of Missionary Ridge. But then I think Thomas ordered Hooker to attack at Rossville Gap without consulting Grant?

Would appreciate some clarification here. I think in Grant's memoirs he claimed to have planned for Hooker to attack at Rossville Gap, but I can also see that as an attempt to "clean up" the battle to make it look like the simple glorious victory everyone thought it was without getting into the ugliness happening between the generals.

Nobody anticipated the Army of the Cumberland's blitz of Missionary Ridge. It was necessary to act quickly in order to exploit the unexpected victory. The notion that General Thomas was ordering Hooker to make some kind of secret attack behind Grant's back is in no way supported by the facts. I assume that Krieger is not familiar with the topography of the battle space. Rossville Gap is the only exit into & out of the south side of Missionary Ridge / Chattanooga. It would have been a dereliction of duty for Thomas to not order Hooker to close off Rossville Gap.

The kind of command disfunction that is implied by Thomas not acting in accord with Grant's orders is a species of Bragg's generalship, not that of the Army of the Cumberland.

 

[uaskme]

Grant's original plan was for Hooker to demonstrate in Lookout Valley. And not attack Lookout Mountain. He was originally planned to wait till dark and cross Browns Ferry. Thomas altered those orders that if Hooker during his demonstration thought he could carry Lookout Mountain, to do so but not go beyond the North Face. This was on the 24th. Grant wanted to hold the Confederates on Lookout Mtn while his primary assault of Sherman flaked the Northern end of Missionary Ridge. So, Hooker planned to change his demonstration into an attack.

Since Hooker took the Mountain and during the night Bragg had decided not to defend the Western side. Confederates actually broke contact at about 2am and moved 2 divisions off the mountain to Missionary Ridge. Then on the morning of the 25th he ordered Hooker to cross Chattanooga Valley and flank Missionary Ridge from the south. There was ground fog on the morning of the 25th. So it was 10 o'clock before the Federals could move. So it takes Hooker until late afternoon before he can get to Missionary Ridge. He does and flanks it.

Sherman failed to flank the Northern end of Missionary ridge on the 24th. So Grant ordered him to continue on the morning of the 25th. Also he sent 3 more divisions to him the morning of the 25th. 11th Corps and Baird's Division who were flaking the 2 AOC divisions of Sheridan and Woods. He weakened his center to bolster Sherman. Sherman gives up about 2pm trying to take the Northern end. Grant has seen Confederates move across the ridge going North. So to help Sherman, he orders another demonstration to the rifle pits in his center. Specific orders not to go beyond the rifle pits. He thought this would give Sherman the help he need to prevail. Actually it was a suicidal mission. Sheridan and Woods moved up the Ridge partly to save themselves and to do what Grant had written them off for. He had stated the Cumberlanders were demoralized and wouldn't get out of their rifle pits. He had written them off, and even the lowest Private knew it. So due to circumstances and NOT Grants order, they carried the Ridge.

Next morning on the 26th the Federals pursued. Hooker will be the first one to Ringgold Gap.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Grant's original plan was for Hooker to demonstrate in Lookout Valley. And not attack Lookout Mountain. He was originally planned to wait till dark and cross Browns Ferry. Thomas altered those orders that if Hooker during his demonstration thought he could carry Lookout Mountain, to do so but not go beyond the North Face. This was on the 24th. Grant wanted to hold the Confederates on Lookout Mtn while his primary assault of Sherman flaked the Northern end of Missionary Ridge. So, Hooker planned to change his demonstration into an attack.

Since Hooker took the Mountain and during the night Bragg had decided not to defend the Western side. Confederates actually broke contact at about 2am and moved 2 divisions off the mountain to Missionary Ridge. Then on the morning of the 25th he ordered Hooker to cross Chattanooga Valley and flank Missionary Ridge from the south. There was ground fog on the morning of the 25th. So it was 10 o'clock before the Federals could move. So it takes Hooker until late afternoon before he can get to Missionary Ridge. He does and flanks it.

Sherman failed to flank the Northern end of Missionary ridge on the 24th. So Grant ordered him to continue on the morning of the 25th. Also he sent 3 more divisions to him the morning of the 25th. 11th Corps and Baird's Division who were flaking the 2 AOC divisions of Sheridan and Woods. He weakened his center to bolster Sherman. Sherman gives up about 2pm trying to take the Northern end. Grant has seen Confederates move across the ridge going North. So to help Sherman, he orders another demonstration to the rifle pits in his center. Specific orders not to go beyond the rifle pits. He thought this would give Sherman the help he need to prevail. Actually it was a suicidal mission. Sheridan and Woods moved up the Ridge partly to save themselves and to do what Grant had written them off for. He had stated the Cumberlanders were demoralized and wouldn't get out of their rifle pits. He had written them off, and even the lowest Private knew it. So due to circumstances and NOT Grants order, they carried the Ridge.

Next morning on the 26th the Federals pursued. Hooker will be the first one to Ringgold Gap.

Thomas didn't alter orders. He ordered Hooker to attack Lookout Mountain based on instructions from Grant. This has been discussed in other threads.

Nobody had written off the Army of the Cumberland. Grants orders for Thomas included the rifle pits "and the ridge beyond."

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Wasn't Hooker delayed on his move from Lookout Mountain to Bragg's left flank on Missionary Ridge? Difficulty getting across a creek?

 

[Rhea Cole]

Here are some resources that will help you understand the terrain that profoundly influenced the Chattanooga / Chickamauga Campaign.

On this contemporary map Lookout Mountain is page left & the Rossville Gap is in the lower right corner. The area where the Cumberlanders surmounted the ridge is between the state line & Bragg's headquarters.

Grant & Thomas were together on orchard knob. Via visual signals Thomas was in direct contact with his HQ, Hooker & General Granger atop Missionary Ridge.

Grant, Western Theater Commander & acting as commander of the Army of the Tennessee & Cumberland army group commander was able to speak directly with George Thomas commander of the Army & Department of the Cumberland on Orchard Knob. There was no disconnect between them.

Link:

Missionary Ridge - Chickamauga & Chattanooga National Military Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

Orchard Knob from the deck at Sugar's BBQ on Missionary Ridge. From the his little White House's porch Bragg could have seen the signal flags wagging on Orchard Knob along side Thomas & Grant.

I have spent many a weekend participating in living history events at Chickamauga / Chattanooga NB. If there is another battlefield where a person can stand on the point of a mountain & see the entire battle space, I would like to go there. No wonder the Confederate infantry gazing down at the thousands of cooking fires despaired. Bragg was just sitting there in his little White House that everyone could see doing nothing as far as anyone could see… & they could see a very long ways indeed.

 

[wausaubob]

Wasn't Hooker delayed on his move from Lookout Mountain to Bragg's left flank on Missionary Ridge? Difficulty getting across a creek?

All the creeks were high. Hooker was running low on bridging equipment. However some skirmishers made it across Chattanooga Creek and the rest of the regiments began to cross. That delay did delay the Cumberland Army and frustrated Sherman. But the result was that the advance on the rifle pits was almost simultaneous with Hooker's amalgamated divisions getting astride the south end of Missionary Ridge. Hooker exaggerated his results and that caused Grant to minimize the contribution of Hooker's force, in the dreary war of words.
Thomas wrote the general plan for the battle, with Smith in charge of the river portion. But there many adjustments due to high water on the Tennessee. Hooker did well, considering he had control of only one of his original divisions.

 

[Krieger]

Nobody anticipated the Army of the Cumberland's blitz of Missionary Ridge. It was necessary to act quickly in order to exploit the unexpected victory. The notion that General Thomas was ordering Hooker to make some kind of secret attack behind Grant's back is in no way supported by the facts. I assume that Krieger is not familiar with the topography of the battle space. Rossville Gap is the only exit into & out of the south side of Missionary Ridge / Chattanooga. It would have been a dereliction of duty for Thomas to not order Hooker to close off Rossville Gap.

The kind of command disfunction that is implied by Thomas not acting in accord with Grant's orders is a species of Bragg's generalship, not that of the Army of the Cumberland.

You assume correctly. I'm not great when it comes to precise knowledge of the terrain of most battles (especially having not been to many of them myself) among other things, which is why I come here to inquire about this sort of thing.

So if Thomas gave the order for Hooker to attack Rossville Gap, what was Grant's role? Did he tell Thomas to give that order to Hooker? If not, then again what was Grant's expectation for Hooker on the 25th exactly? Appreciate everyone's posts.

 

[Rhea Cole]

You assume correctly. I'm not great when it comes to precise knowledge of the terrain of most battles (especially having not been to many of them myself) among other things, which is why I come here to inquire about this sort of thing. Appreciate everyone's posts.

Northern point of Lookout Mountain as seen from Sugar's BBQ on Missionary Ridge.

I have been a living history volunteer at the "black powder parks" in Tennessee for over 20 years. The Chickamauga / Chattanooga landscape is unique in its extremes of altitude & concentrated battle scape.

I encourage you to listen to the lectures online by historians James Ogden & Lee White. They stand on the ground where the action they are describing occurred.

Link:

You will want good maps in order to follow Jim Ogden's series of lectures. The cartographer who creates the American Battlefield Trust maps has created a brilliant format. The 11 maps in the Chickamauga series are an invaluable resource.

Link:

Chickamauga | Sept 19-20, 1863

The American Battlefield Trust’s map of the Battle of Chickamauga, site of this epic 1863 Civil War battle in Georgia between William Rosecrans' Union Army of the Cumberland and Braxton Bragg's Army of Tennessee.

www.battlefields.org

 

[Rhea Cole]

You assume correctly. I'm not great when it comes to precise knowledge of the terrain of most battles (especially having not been to many of them myself) among other things, which is why I come here to inquire about this sort of thing. Appreciate everyone's posts.

I don't know why this post has replicated itself, therefore I won't mess with it.

Northern point of Lookout Mountain as seen from Sugar's BBQ on Missionary Ridge.

I have been a living history volunteer at the "black powder parks" in Tennessee for over 20 years. The Chickamauga / Chattanooga landscape is unique in its extremes of altitude & concentrated battle scape.

I encourage you to listen to the lectures online by historians James Ogden & Lee White. They stand on the ground where the action they are describing occurred.

Link:

 

[wausaubob]

General Thomas and his staff were making the plans at Chattanooga. Grant was there to communicate with Sherman and with General Hooker. Grant was responsible to Washington, so he modified the plans. But circumstances caused the US to return to the plan of General Thomas.
No one was sure the Confederates had abandoned Lookout Mountain until the morning of the 25th. After that the west end of the Confederate line moved up onto Missionary Ridge. The entire west end of the Confederate line had been depleted to send Cleburne's soldiers and other units to the east end of the line. That created a new opportunity for Hooker. Thomas couldn't give orders to Hooker. That was Grant's responsibility. If you look at the maps of Missionary Ridge, Sheridan's and Wood's divisions slanted off to the west somewhat towards the weak end of the Confederate line. Johnson's division face minimal opposition in front of the ridge. The Confederates had a woefully inadequate force on the west end of the line, and the divisions of Cruft, Geary and Osterhaus had more trouble with the high water than with the Confederate opposition. In half an hour the Confederate line was going to collapse, left to right, even if the center of line had held out longer.

 

[Rhea Cole]

General Thomas and his staff were making the plans at Chattanooga. Grant was there to communicate with Sherman and with General Hooker. Grant was responsible to Washington, so he modified the plans. But circumstances caused the US to return to the plan of General Thomas.
No one was sure the Confederates had abandoned Lookout Mountain until the morning of the 25th. After that the west end of the Confederate line moved up onto Missionary Ridge. The entire west end of the Confederate line had been depleted to send Cleburne's soldiers and other units to the east end of the line. That created a new opportunity for Hooker. Thomas couldn't give orders to Hooker. That was Grant's responsibility. If you look at the maps of Missionary Ridge, Sheridan's and Wood's divisions slanted off to the west somewhat towards the weak end of the Confederate line. Johnson's division face minimal opposition in front of the ridge. The Confederates had a woefully inadequate force on the west end of the line, and the divisions of Cruft, Geary and Osterhaus had more trouble with the high water than with the Confederate opposition. In half an hour the Confederate line was going to collapse, left to right, even if the center of line had held out longer.

FYI: Hooker was under Thomas' command. The Army of the Potomac corps were joined by Army of the Cumberland units for the Lookout Mountain attack.

At Chattanooga Grant acted in the role of what we call an army group commander. It was through his HQ that Thomas & Sherman's orders were generated. As Grant said in his memoir, the only fault he found with Rosecrans plans was that he had failed to initiate them. Grant, Thomas & Sherman made joint personal reconnaissances where they came to a consensus, something that Grant insisted on.

As army group commander, Grant shifted Army of the Cumberland regiments to Sherman's Army of the Tennessee command for the assault on Missionary Ridge. When that attack stalled, those units returned to the A of the C position confronting Missionary Ridge. From there, they were in position to support the assault on the ridge.

Grant issued orders to Hooker via Thomas. The highly effective visual signal net made near real time command & control possible. The Lookout Mountain signal station on what is now Point Park had a panoramic view of the battle space. I can attest to that personally having participated in visual signal living history programs to & from Point Park, you can also see the flags from miles around.

As Dana's eyes only telegraphic reports document, as Western Theater commander Grant was simultaneously in direct contact with Burnside & the Cumberland Gap commander. Lincoln had very good reason to seek relief of the loyalist population of East Tennessee. Grant sent Dana north to report on the situation. You can read his reports & know what Grant & Lincoln knew.

 

[W Charles Young]

Actually, Hooker had a division from each army. Geary's of the A of P, Cruft's of the A of C, and Osterhaus's of the A of T.

FYI: Hooker was under Thomas' command. The Army of the Potomac corps were joined by Army of the Cumberland units for the Lookout Mountain attack.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It is always useful to refer to the original sources. This is a link to Grant's memoir of the events we are discussing in this thread. Note the part that Dana's dispatches played.

Link:

PERSONAL MEMOIRS U. S. GRANT, Part 4

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Actually, Hooker had a division from each army. Geary's of the A of P, Cruft's of the A of C, and Osterhaus's of the A of T.

Where was the rest of the AotP contingent? Guarding Bridgeport, Stevenson, and Lookout Mountain?

 

[Rhea Cole]

The 240,000 men in the Department of the Cumberland were moving heaven & earth to keep the Chattanooga army group supplied & evacuate disabled men & animals.

The A of the P had been strung out along the N&CRR. That was one of the many factors that made such a colossal fiasco out Wheeler's raid.

Both of Hooker's corps were in Lookout Valley as the Lookout Mountain operations took place.

 

[Mississippian1861]

Where was the rest of the AotP contingent? Guarding Bridgeport, Stevenson, and Lookout Mountain?

I think only the 1st Division, 12th Corps was guarding the railroad. The 2nd Division, 12th Corps was with Hooker. The two 11th Corps Divisions (2nd and 3rd) were sent to support Sherman. The 1st Division, 11th Corps had been exiled to the lower Atlantic Coast in August for it's poor performance at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.

 

[wausaubob]

It is always useful to refer to the original sources. This is a link to Grant's memoir of the events we are discussing in this thread. Note the part that Dana's dispatches played.

Link:

PERSONAL MEMOIRS U. S. GRANT, Part 4

I wouldn't rely on the memoirs. Initially Grant was pleased with Hooker's results. Grant did not like the casualties that resulted when Hooker tried to force the mountain gap vs. Cleburne's defense. But by February Hooker had fabricated a fantastic report, which was unnecessary. That put Hooker in the Mcclernand category and neither Grant nor Sherman trusted Hooker after that.
I think it was Thomas' plan. He understood the terrain and knew what Rosecrans had intended. Grant tried to arrange the plan so that Sherman's force made the breakthrough, but the Confederates had plans too.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I wouldn't rely on the memoirs. Initially Grant was pleased with Hooker's results. Grant did not like the casualties that resulted when Hooker tried to force the mountain gap vs. Cleburne's defense. But by February Hooker had fabricated a fantastic report, which was unnecessary. That put Hooker in the Mcclernand category and neither Grant nor Sherman trusted Hooker after that.
I think it was Thomas' plan. He understood the terrain and knew what Rosecrans had intended. Grant tried to arrange the plan so that Sherman's force made the breakthrough, but the Confederates had plans too.

That is interesting. You have a source that contradicts Grant. What is it & how can I access it?

 

[wausaubob]

That is interesting. You have a source that contradicts Grant. What is it & how can I access it?

I cannot recall where I read that. As you know, I don't maintain a bibliography. But I am sure the big problem was Hooker's February version of events. He had accomplished significant things and there was no reason to exaggerate the accomplishments.
The other interesting thing was that the entire Grant/Thomas relationship as being icy was invented by others later. Everyone like Pap Thomas. But Thomas wanted to restore the bridge and the railroad connection and resupply the army. Grant had imperatives from the administration and he could not wait.
The other interesting element of Chattanooga was how many of the officers in the army Thomas put back together moved up. Men like Sheridan/Porter/Jefferson C. Davis/Comstock all moved up. Thomas and Wood were a big advantage to the US forces. I think they could communicate with other men why the future of the country depended on the US winning.