Fighting Men

"Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer."
It's pretty hard to look at someone who died 150+ years ago and decide what motivated them, but if one were to look at the characteristics of a psychopath, Anderson could be the 1860's Psyco poster boy. His actions, beginning in 1863, exhibits most of characteristics that psychiatrists note for psychopathy.

"To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor."
No, it's not, although I'll grant that your are entitled to your opinion.
In the 1860 census, 21 year old William Anderson jointly owned a Kansas farm with is father which was valued at $1000, so by the standards of the time, they were not wealthy by any means, but were better off than most of the recent settlers. In 1859, his older brother killed an Indian, fled to Iowa, and was later killed there. In 1860 his mother was stuck by lightening and killed. In 1862, his father was killed, perhaps in an "Affair of Honor" with a neighbor regarding Anderson's 15 year old sister. Anderson, now being the oldest male of his family along his younger brother Jim later killed the neighbor, and then took his sisters to Missouri where he took up what Anderson called "bushwhacking," but not for ideological reasons, but as a way to support his family by horse stealing and reselling them; the common term for this activity at the time was "Jay hawking." Prior to all of the above happenings, there was nothing remarkable the way William acted. It was said of him that he was "a good boy, as steady as a clock." While the family had moved to Kansas from Missouri in 1856-7, they took no part in the border troubles. But as the war broke out, and family misfortunes mounted "Bloody Bill" used his courage, and his diminishing lack of scruples to try and improve he and his family's economic situation. A he supposedly told a friend that he was trying to recruit into his band early in the war, "I don't care any more than you for the South, Strieby, but there is a lot of money in this business." So Anderson went from a common criminal, taking advantage of the chaos the war caused on the border, to that of a guerrilla leader.
Prior to the August 1863 jail collapse that killed his sister, Anderson had been a minor guerrilla leader, who's activities was first mentioned in a dispatch by Union authorities in July of 1863, when he and David Poole raided a German settlement in Lafayette County, (for some reason, Poole hated Germans). Poole was also a guerilla leader under Quantrill. The dispatch shows us that Anderson had joined his band with that of Poole's so he had recently placed himself under the loose authority of Quantrill. A month later, Bill's sister, Josephine Anderson, 14, was killed in the jail collapse. Her 16 year old sister, Mary Ellen, was crippled and disfigured for life, and her 10 year old little sister, Janie, had two broken legs, an injured back and lacerated face. Three other young women were also killed, all of them related to Quantrill's men. According to men that knew Anderson, (this comes primarily from fellow guerrilla William Greg), when Anderson heard about the collapse and the death of his sister, something snapped within him. Authors Albert Castel and Tom Goodrich in their book, "Bloody Bill Anderson," note the change that the occurred in Anderson, (pg. 27). "Now though, killing-especially killing enemy soldiers-became an end to itself, one driven by a bloodlust so strong that sometime Anderson would foam at the mouth and sob because he could not continue pumping bullets into more blue-clad uniformed victims." " Out of the wreckage of the building on Kansas City's Grand Avenue came not only the mangled bodies of young women. It also sparked the emergence of "Bloody Bill" Anderson, a man who lived for death and who shortly before he himself died declared: "I have killed Union soldiers until I have got sick of killing them." Slightly over a week after the jail collapse, Quantrill lead the retaliatory raid on Lawrence, KS. Anderson is credited with killing 14 men in that raid. As he departed the town, he supposedly told a Lawrence woman, "I'm here for revenge and I have got it." Hopefully you can see there was a progression here in Anderson. Oh, and after Anderson became "Bloody Bill," after the jail collapse, whenever he went into battle and was doing his killing, he called out the name "Josephine."

"Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this. There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path."
I don't think that this statement helps to prove your point. I will agree than many of the guerrillas retuned to civilian life and lead decent lives. I have a data base of nearly 800 names of guerrilla men who rode with Quantrill and his successors. I started this after reading "Bushwhackers; Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri," by Joseph Beilein, (highly recommended), and became interested, (perhaps obsessed) with the blood relationship among Quantrill's men. Nearly 40% of the men were blood related, a much higher rate than any other guerrilla group that I am aware of. And if they weren't blood related, the were friends and neighbors. In my data base, I not only note the blood relationship, but any other data if find in my readings, such if they survived the war, etc. Of those who did survive, I note that 3 or 4 became doctors, two became politicians, about a half dozen became lawmen, a couple became Judges while most returned to their farms, and a few, like David Poole became wealthy cattlemen. Many of the men left the state, perhaps they were forced out, or thought that starting over in a new state where they were not known was the better idea. And many of the names have no after war notation at all: their after war history is lost. But what is clear is that their participation as guerrillas effected all of these men in different ways. Some were able to adapt to the Radicle Republican control that disenfranchised any Southern man of Missouri for years. However, some could not, and they became outlaws, robbing trains, banks, and dyeing violent deaths. And perhaps it's just a coincidence, but overwhelmingly, the men who took an outlaw path had ridden with Anderson during the war. (btw, due to my genealogy-based research on Quantrill's men, I found that I'm very distantly related to the James boys who, of course, rode with Bill Anderson).
T. J. Stiles points this out in his book, "Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War" in referring to the 1866 daylight robbery of the Clay County Savings Association, (owned by Radical Republicans), at least 9 men were soon named as committing the robbery. After Stiles names the men, he goes on to say, "These men were the surviving core of Bill Anderson's terrorist gang, who had followed Poole, Clement, and Jim Anderson back from Texas in early 1865. Rumors and hard evidence would soon point to (Jim) Anderson and particularly Clement as the leaders of the raid." Clement, who was Bill Anderson's second in charge and took over Anderson guerrilla band after Anderson was killed was himself later killed in December of 1866. Jim Anderson (Bill's little brother), killed Ike Flannery in 1867 over a dispute about money, but was himself killed in 1868 by Ike's uncle, George Sheppard. George Sheppard, and his brother Oliver, in addition to being suspects in the 1866 Clay County bank robbery, robbed the Russelville, KY bank in 1868. Because of this, Oliver was later gunned down by police and George spent time in a KY prison. It's debated if Jesse and Frank James had anything to do with the Clay County bank robbery, but after Clement and Anderson died, the gang the James formed included many of the men suspected in the Clay County robbery. Other former Anderson guerrilla's who became members of the James-Younger gang were: Jim Cummins, (whos sister married William H. Ford, his nephew, Robert Ford, killed Jesse James). J.F. Edmunson, Wood Hite, (who was a cousin to the James Brothers and was killed Charles Ford and Dick Liddil over money taken in the Blue Cut train robbery. Thomas Liddils brother, Thomas, himself a bank robber, was hung by a mob for this activity.), Arthur McCoy, James Reed, John VanMeter, brothers John and James White, "Clell" Miller, and Jim and Cole Younger. I don't think Cole Younger rode with Anderson, but I'm not sure about his brother Jim.

Other bank robbers, but not part of the James-Younger gang include: Sam Bass, James Berry, Richard Burton, James Dever, and Andy McGuire who were all caught and hung for their bank robbing activity, and all of them rode with Anderson. Payne Jones was also a bank robber but was killed by "Jim Crow" Childs, (who was an uncle by marriage to President Truman), "Jim Crow" Chiles was later killed by the Marshall of Independence MO. Jim's son was also killed by the Marshall's son in the same shoot out. Jim Crow also ran a saloon in Texas during part of the war. One of the girls who worked for him married Bill Anderson during the 1863-64 winter. And "Jim Crow" rode with Anderson

Two Anderson men who turned train robbers after the war were brothers Hilary and Levi Farrington. They were hung in 1870.

And I don't know the particulars of this incident, but former Anderson guerrilla Jim Hedges, was killed in a gunfight in 1901.

Another book that sheds some light on Missouri guerrillas who couldn't seem to adjust to a civil life after the war is Mathew Hulbert's book, "The Ghost of Guerrilla Memory: How Civil War Bushwhackers Became Gunslingers in the American West." The tit;e give you a good idea of what the book is about.

There could very well be more Anderson men who went afoul of the law after the war, but we'll leave the list as it is. The point being that many of these men "apprenticed" their outlaw tactics while riding with Anderson, so in that sense, they most assuredly "followed Anderson's path."
Agree, the problem with using terms as psychopath during war, is empathy for the enemy isnt encouraged.......nor is guilt for killing the enemy. Far from being anti social, many were noted as jovial and jokesters, and the group leaders certainly exhibited a charisma or they wouldnt have been followed. They were motivated in many cases by a desire to avenge wrongs done to them, however they operated in a context where that was allowed, when the war ended, and it wasnt allowed, most simply returned to civilian life as anyone else.

Throughout our history, US or Confederate, we have utilized men in wartime to operate in grey areas and conduct black ops, and most throughout our history could transition back to peacetime.......Wartime actions dont reflect personality traits IMO.

A classic example is in WW2, in the pacific it became popular to take body parts as souvenirs or disrespect enemy dead, they werent mindless bloodthirsty psychopaths IMO as most returned and lived normal lifes after the war.....though in peacetime such actions very well might be considered psychopathic..
 
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"Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer."
It's pretty hard to look at someone who died 150+ years ago and decide what motivated them, but if one were to look at the characteristics of a psychopath, Anderson could be the 1860's Psyco poster boy. His actions, beginning in 1863, exhibits most of characteristics that psychiatrists note for psychopathy.

"To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor."
No, it's not, although I'll grant that your are entitled to your opinion.
In the 1860 census, 21 year old William Anderson jointly owned a Kansas farm with is father which was valued at $1000, so by the standards of the time, they were not wealthy by any means, but were better off than most of the recent settlers. In 1859, his older brother killed an Indian, fled to Iowa, and was later killed there. In 1860 his mother was stuck by lightening and killed. In 1862, his father was killed, perhaps in an "Affair of Honor" with a neighbor regarding Anderson's 15 year old sister. Anderson, now being the oldest male of his family along his younger brother Jim later killed the neighbor, and then took his sisters to Missouri where he took up what Anderson called "bushwhacking," but not for ideological reasons, but as a way to support his family by horse stealing and reselling them; the common term for this activity at the time was "Jay hawking." Prior to all of the above happenings, there was nothing remarkable the way William acted. It was said of him that he was "a good boy, as steady as a clock." While the family had moved to Kansas from Missouri in 1856-7, they took no part in the border troubles. But as the war broke out, and family misfortunes mounted "Bloody Bill" used his courage, and his diminishing lack of scruples to try and improve he and his family's economic situation. A he supposedly told a friend that he was trying to recruit into his band early in the war, "I don't care any more than you for the South, Strieby, but there is a lot of money in this business." So Anderson went from a common criminal, taking advantage of the chaos the war caused on the border, to that of a guerrilla leader.
Prior to the August 1863 jail collapse that killed his sister, Anderson had been a minor guerrilla leader, who's activities was first mentioned in a dispatch by Union authorities in July of 1863, when he and David Poole raided a German settlement in Lafayette County, (for some reason, Poole hated Germans). Poole was also a guerilla leader under Quantrill. The dispatch shows us that Anderson had joined his band with that of Poole's so he had recently placed himself under the loose authority of Quantrill. A month later, Bill's sister, Josephine Anderson, 14, was killed in the jail collapse. Her 16 year old sister, Mary Ellen, was crippled and disfigured for life, and her 10 year old little sister, Janie, had two broken legs, an injured back and lacerated face. Three other young women were also killed, all of them related to Quantrill's men. According to men that knew Anderson, (this comes primarily from fellow guerrilla William Greg), when Anderson heard about the collapse and the death of his sister, something snapped within him. Authors Albert Castel and Tom Goodrich in their book, "Bloody Bill Anderson," note the change that the occurred in Anderson, (pg. 27). "Now though, killing-especially killing enemy soldiers-became an end to itself, one driven by a bloodlust so strong that sometime Anderson would foam at the mouth and sob because he could not continue pumping bullets into more blue-clad uniformed victims." " Out of the wreckage of the building on Kansas City's Grand Avenue came not only the mangled bodies of young women. It also sparked the emergence of "Bloody Bill" Anderson, a man who lived for death and who shortly before he himself died declared: "I have killed Union soldiers until I have got sick of killing them." Slightly over a week after the jail collapse, Quantrill lead the retaliatory raid on Lawrence, KS. Anderson is credited with killing 14 men in that raid. As he departed the town, he supposedly told a Lawrence woman, "I'm here for revenge and I have got it." Hopefully you can see there was a progression here in Anderson. Oh, and after Anderson became "Bloody Bill," after the jail collapse, whenever he went into battle and was doing his killing, he called out the name "Josephine."

"Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this. There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path."
I don't think that this statement helps to prove your point. I will agree than many of the guerrillas retuned to civilian life and lead decent lives. I have a data base of nearly 800 names of guerrilla men who rode with Quantrill and his successors. I started this after reading "Bushwhackers; Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri," by Joseph Beilein, (highly recommended), and became interested, (perhaps obsessed) with the blood relationship among Quantrill's men. Nearly 40% of the men were blood related, a much higher rate than any other guerrilla group that I am aware of. And if they weren't blood related, the were friends and neighbors. In my data base, I not only note the blood relationship, but any other data if find in my readings, such if they survived the war, etc. Of those who did survive, I note that 3 or 4 became doctors, two became politicians, about a half dozen became lawmen, a couple became Judges while most returned to their farms, and a few, like David Poole became wealthy cattlemen. Many of the men left the state, perhaps they were forced out, or thought that starting over in a new state where they were not known was the better idea. And many of the names have no after war notation at all: their after war history is lost. But what is clear is that their participation as guerrillas effected all of these men in different ways. Some were able to adapt to the Radicle Republican control that disenfranchised any Southern man of Missouri for years. However, some could not, and they became outlaws, robbing trains, banks, and dyeing violent deaths. And perhaps it's just a coincidence, but overwhelmingly, the men who took an outlaw path had ridden with Anderson during the war. (btw, due to my genealogy-based research on Quantrill's men, I found that I'm very distantly related to the James boys who, of course, rode with Bill Anderson).
T. J. Stiles points this out in his book, "Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War" in referring to the 1866 daylight robbery of the Clay County Savings Association, (owned by Radical Republicans), at least 9 men were soon named as committing the robbery. After Stiles names the men, he goes on to say, "These men were the surviving core of Bill Anderson's terrorist gang, who had followed Poole, Clement, and Jim Anderson back from Texas in early 1865. Rumors and hard evidence would soon point to (Jim) Anderson and particularly Clement as the leaders of the raid." Clement, who was Bill Anderson's second in charge and took over Anderson guerrilla band after Anderson was killed was himself later killed in December of 1866. Jim Anderson (Bill's little brother), killed Ike Flannery in 1867 over a dispute about money, but was himself killed in 1868 by Ike's uncle, George Sheppard. George Sheppard, and his brother Oliver, in addition to being suspects in the 1866 Clay County bank robbery, robbed the Russelville, KY bank in 1868. Because of this, Oliver was later gunned down by police and George spent time in a KY prison. It's debated if Jesse and Frank James had anything to do with the Clay County bank robbery, but after Clement and Anderson died, the gang the James formed included many of the men suspected in the Clay County robbery. Other former Anderson guerrilla's who became members of the James-Younger gang were: Jim Cummins, (whos sister married William H. Ford, his nephew, Robert Ford, killed Jesse James). J.F. Edmunson, Wood Hite, (who was a cousin to the James Brothers and was killed Charles Ford and Dick Liddil over money taken in the Blue Cut train robbery. Thomas Liddils brother, Thomas, himself a bank robber, was hung by a mob for this activity.), Arthur McCoy, James Reed, John VanMeter, brothers John and James White, "Clell" Miller, and Jim and Cole Younger. I don't think Cole Younger rode with Anderson, but I'm not sure about his brother Jim.

Other bank robbers, but not part of the James-Younger gang include: Sam Bass, James Berry, Richard Burton, James Dever, and Andy McGuire who were all caught and hung for their bank robbing activity, and all of them rode with Anderson. Payne Jones was also a bank robber but was killed by "Jim Crow" Childs, (who was an uncle by marriage to President Truman), "Jim Crow" Chiles was later killed by the Marshall of Independence MO. Jim's son was also killed by the Marshall's son in the same shoot out. Jim Crow also ran a saloon in Texas during part of the war. One of the girls who worked for him married Bill Anderson during the 1863-64 winter. And "Jim Crow" rode with Anderson

Two Anderson men who turned train robbers after the war were brothers Hilary and Levi Farrington. They were hung in 1870.

And I don't know the particulars of this incident, but former Anderson guerrilla Jim Hedges, was killed in a gunfight in 1901.

Another book that sheds some light on Missouri guerrillas who couldn't seem to adjust to a civil life after the war is Mathew Hulbert's book, "The Ghost of Guerrilla Memory: How Civil War Bushwhackers Became Gunslingers in the American West." The tit;e give you a good idea of what the book is about.

There could very well be more Anderson men who went afoul of the law after the war, but we'll leave the list as it is. The point being that many of these men "apprenticed" their outlaw tactics while riding with Anderson, so in that sense, they most assuredly "followed Anderson's path."
This very interesting! Anderson has received a bad legacy by Northern historians who have portrayed Southern guerrillas forces as ,murderous roovers who terrorized towns and civilians on the border states while neglecting to render this same treatment to Yankee guerrilla force as the Jayhawkers and Red Legs.Was one of the reason that he left Quantrail was that even exceeded Quantrill's level of violence ?The James and Youngers were some of his followers and carried on after the war.Then one last,one has to understand the region which these men were raised ,this was a region as in Kentucky and West Va. ,where hostil and vengeance was settle by violence. McCoys and Hatfields.
 
True. Men like Forrest and Wade Hampton, who was second only to Forrest, led by example and did not expect anything out of their men they didn't expect out of themselves. Forrest was completely fearless in battle - he would run his horse full gallop into another horse to keep one of his men from being killed, get thrown and dislocate his shoulder, then come up on his feet surrounded by half a dozen Union soldiers bent on killing him...who were killed. Dedication to the reason for all this, the sense behind it, the fierce determination to success, relentless pursuit - all of it was calculated to inspire and steady the troops. If you were a psychopath, Forrest would have no use for you - in fact, he'd probably shoot you himself. These kind of fighters were skilled and trained to be calm and to think clearly when the circumstances were hardly conducive to that! And you're right that it all does something to your head. Sometimes Forrest could not wind down from a battle and he was extremely dangerous to every man around. That's when his aides would send for his wife - she was the only one who could settle him out.
Were these the men who Quantrail recruited for his force Was this why the Confederate military refused to commision his force into the Confederate army so violent and disregard for human life.Then in reality the Union had the same except who wrote the history of these renegades?
 
I didn't specify if psychos were included. But going toe to toe on the battlefield

I'm so glad. And warfare has such a terrible effect on the psyke. People can easily loose their moral compass in war, and others just plain loose it and never get it back.
The first thing to die in war is innocence, the second is sanity the third is life. It does drive folks crazy.
But Forrest wasn't crazy, he knew exactly what he had to do. Dawes ended up going kinda crazy but was sane when he did a lot of the most serious fighting.
I dunno if we can say who was and who wasn't crazy, and war makes you do crazy things anyway. I say if a psychopath personally offed 20 or 30 men, we shouldn't discriminate on mental health grounds.
To be fair we can't really know who exactly did what to whom. In insurgency warfare not every kill is going to be recorded. Snipers may or may not keep score. There has been some discussion that Hinson's score may have been exaterated.
Leftyhunter
 
Were these the men who Quantrail recruited for his force Was this why the Confederate military refused to commision his force into the Confederate army so violent and disregard for human life.Then in reality the Union had the same except who wrote the history of these renegades?

I think you're still asking the question you were asking Booner, John! As a rule, until the very end of the war, commanders like Forrest wanted nothing to do with partisans, guerillas or any other para-military unit. These units were hard to control and hard to manage, and could get one into more trouble than not. The Lamson Brothers, for instance, got together over 100 men and signed up with Forrest, who very reluctantly took them. When their female relations were harmed back at home, the whole company took off without permission to avenge the deeds. Forrest ordered them back, they refused, and he declared them outlaws to be shot on sight. Which is what Tennessee marshals did a couple years after the war... He did have a plan to deal with groups such as Newt Knight's free state - Knight was, in Forrest's view, nothing more than a warlord.
 
This very interesting! Anderson has received a bad legacy by Northern historians who have portrayed Southern guerrillas forces as ,murderous roovers who terrorized towns and civilians on the border states while neglecting to render this same treatment to Yankee guerrilla force as the Jayhawkers and Red Legs.Was one of the reason that he left Quantrail was that even exceeded Quantrill's level of violence ?The James and Youngers were some of his followers and carried on after the war.Then one last,one has to understand the region which these men were raised ,this was a region as in Kentucky and West Va. ,where hostil and vengeance was settle by violence. McCoys and Hatfields.
Pretty much.......as in the case of Heinz-Wilhelm Eck and Mush Morton........both sub skippers in WW2, both ordered torpedoed ships survivors machine gunned..which was illegal.....one is condemned as a war criminal while the other gets the Navy Cross.....the victors write the history and portrayals
Were these the men who Quantrail recruited for his force Was this why the Confederate military refused to commision his force into the Confederate army so violent and disregard for human life.Then in reality the Union had the same except who wrote the history of these renegades?

??? makes no sense as they were commissioned into the CSA service in Nov 62, and why they were attached and fought with the regular army at Pea Ridge.......... Yes the Union had the same in jayhawkers who they also commissioned. And who in fairness though also showed the same disregard for life and laws of war, for the most part also transitioned postwar back to civilian life. That both guerrillas and jayhawkers could transition postwar successfully would seem to indicate their behavior was a condition of the circumstances and time, and not any personality traits.
 
This very interesting! Anderson has received a bad legacy by Northern historians who have portrayed Southern guerrillas forces as ,murderous roovers who terrorized towns and civilians on the border states while neglecting to render this same treatment to Yankee guerrilla force as the Jayhawkers and Red Legs.Was one of the reason that he left Quantrail was that even exceeded Quantrill's level of violence ?The James and Youngers were some of his followers and carried on after the war.Then one last,one has to understand the region which these men were raised ,this was a region as in Kentucky and West Va. ,where hostil and vengeance was settle by violence. McCoys and Hatfields.

Sorry for the delayed response. I had to help support my home boys. CHIEFS!!!
I live in a small sized town of about 8,000 people 100 miles east of Kansas City. Right after the game was over, our casino set off a bunch of fireworks. How cool!

Well, I'm fascinated by the MO. Guerrillas, and I'm pleased you found it interesting. I think your correct in your speculation regarding Northern historians, but it's deeper than that. I've often said what the guerrillas lacked was a good press agent. If the South had won the war and was able to take MO. out of the Union, there would be statues of Quantrill in Western MO. It started when Kansas was opened up for settlement. The abolitionist had a huge advantage because they had some very prominent eastern press supporting their efforts. And the north won the war so they get to write the history. John Edwards wrote a very biased history of the guerrillas in a lost cause way, that may have done more damage to guerrilla history by portraying them a some type of southern saviors. That set up Connelley to refute Edwards work with his biased anti guerrilla book.
The good thing is that in the last few years the guerrillas are being looked at again by authors who seem to lack a bias, (Leslie's "The Devil Knows How to Ride"), nor aren't afraid to dig deeper into the guerrilla psychic to help explain their motivation, (Beilein, "Bushwhackers: Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri "). I'm hoping that that trend will continue. I think if one understands their motivations, the view that they were all blood thirsty savages will diminish. Neither side of the conflict in Missouri can claim sainthood, and no other state was devastated by that war more than Missouri. The war here doesn't get studied as much as in other areas as it wasn't as pretty here as in other places.

Regarding your question about the relationship between Quantril and Anderson; they didn't get along and I think that's putting it mildly. When Anderson was more horse thief than guerrilla in 1862, he didn't discriminate from northern or southern supporters in who he stole from. Quantrill heard about what Anderson was doing and took some men and went looking for him. He caught Anderson with some horses stolen from Southeners and forced Anderson to turn the horses over to him so Quantrill could return them to their owners. The meeting between the two parties was pretty tense, but Quantrill had more men, so Anderson had to submit. He was enraged and embarrassed by what happened and he and Quantity never reconciled their feelings toward each other. Then in late spring of 1863 Quantrill had just returned to MO from his trip to Richmond, VA where he tried to unsuccessfully get a Colonels commission, and as he approached his camp, all the guerrillas were very excited about a guerrilla raid a small group had just made deep into KS. And standing there, basking in glory for his part in the raid was Anderson. By now he had a few more men who rode with him, and because of his new found status, he was able to gather more under his command. In 1862 Quantrill had taken direct command in raiding activity. But in 1863 he changed his tactics. He broke his command into smaller groups under different leaders while he stayed back in camp to do the over all coordination. So by giving his sub-leaders more independence in how they commanded their men, he helped fostered his own problem that lead to his own lost of command, and respect later that year. Quantrill also had become distracted, as he had fallen in love with 14-15 year old Kate King and spent all of his available time with her. The only raid he directly led that year was the raid on Lawrence, He had been planning that raid for some time but couldn't get his sub commander to agree to it. . But once the jail collapse occurred they wanted revenge, even if it meant the loss of the lives. . By most accounts, Anderson's men did more than their share of the killing, while Quantrill hung out with some Lawrence folks he knew from the time he lived there, prewar, and perhaps getting his ego stroked by the fear he and his men generated. In the fall of 1863 while on their way to over-winter in Texas, Quantrills command came into contact with Gen. Blunt's command outside of Baxter Spring, KS. Blunts command was essentially wiped out but Quantrill was against making a major attack on the fort at Baxter Springs. He had learned the folly of men on horses armed with only six guns attacking a fortified position, but some of his men began questioning his decision.
By the time they got to Texas, Quantrill had a mutany developing with Anderson. It came to a head when a guerrilla killed a Confederate officer, and Anderson told the Confederate authorities that it was Quantrill who had ordered it done. The authorities came to arrest Quantrill, but he managed to escape capture, and Anderson was sent to catch him. Anderson and Quantrills men actually got into a shoot out for a while, but no one was hit. Anderson then took his men and headed back to MO. now able to command his men as he sought fit. Quantrill hung out in Texas for a little longer, but as he started to head back to MO. his sub-commanders gathered their men about them and broke away also free from Quantrills authority. By the time Quantrill made it back to MO. He only had a handful of loyal followers. He spent the summer of 1864 in the arms of the lovely Miss King in a hollow in Howard County here in central MO. (about 4-5 miles from where I write this), contiplating how the war is going to end for him. Anderson, Todd, and Poole now acted on their own wims, free from any over riding authority, and the level of terror and violence racheted up to new heights.
 
I think you're still asking the question you were asking Booner, John! As a rule, until the very end of the war, commanders like Forrest wanted nothing to do with partisans, guerillas or any other para-military unit. These units were hard to control and hard to manage, and could get one into more trouble than not. The Lamson Brothers, for instance, got together over 100 men and signed up with Forrest, who very reluctantly took them. When their female relations were harmed back at home, the whole company took off without permission to avenge the deeds. Forrest ordered them back, they refused, and he declared them outlaws to be shot on sight. Which is what Tennessee marshals did a couple years after the war... He did have a plan to deal with groups such as Newt Knight's free state - Knight was, in Forrest's view, nothing more than a warlord.
[/QUOTE Thanks for the information on Forrest and the partisans. May l suggest a book?"The State of Jones" .It is a history of the county of Jones in north Ms.and Newt Knight with his partisan band.Can not remember the author.It rather diminishes the myth of the Confederacy being solid esp in regions where slavery did not have roots.If you know of a book on the same subject but about any counties in the North which attempted to stay out of the war I would appreciate knowing about them/
 
"Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer."
It's pretty hard to look at someone who died 150+ years ago and decide what motivated them, but if one were to look at the characteristics of a psychopath, Anderson could be the 1860's Psyco poster boy. His actions, beginning in 1863, exhibits most of characteristics that psychiatrists note for psychopathy.

"To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor."
No, it's not, although I'll grant that your are entitled to your opinion.
In the 1860 census, 21 year old William Anderson jointly owned a Kansas farm with is father which was valued at $1000, so by the standards of the time, they were not wealthy by any means, but were better off than most of the recent settlers. In 1859, his older brother killed an Indian, fled to Iowa, and was later killed there. In 1860 his mother was stuck by lightening and killed. In 1862, his father was killed, perhaps in an "Affair of Honor" with a neighbor regarding Anderson's 15 year old sister. Anderson, now being the oldest male of his family along his younger brother Jim later killed the neighbor, and then took his sisters to Missouri where he took up what Anderson called "bushwhacking," but not for ideological reasons, but as a way to support his family by horse stealing and reselling them; the common term for this activity at the time was "Jay hawking." Prior to all of the above happenings, there was nothing remarkable the way William acted. It was said of him that he was "a good boy, as steady as a clock." While the family had moved to Kansas from Missouri in 1856-7, they took no part in the border troubles. But as the war broke out, and family misfortunes mounted "Bloody Bill" used his courage, and his diminishing lack of scruples to try and improve he and his family's economic situation. A he supposedly told a friend that he was trying to recruit into his band early in the war, "I don't care any more than you for the South, Strieby, but there is a lot of money in this business." So Anderson went from a common criminal, taking advantage of the chaos the war caused on the border, to that of a guerrilla leader.
Prior to the August 1863 jail collapse that killed his sister, Anderson had been a minor guerrilla leader, who's activities was first mentioned in a dispatch by Union authorities in July of 1863, when he and David Poole raided a German settlement in Lafayette County, (for some reason, Poole hated Germans). Poole was also a guerilla leader under Quantrill. The dispatch shows us that Anderson had joined his band with that of Poole's so he had recently placed himself under the loose authority of Quantrill. A month later, Bill's sister, Josephine Anderson, 14, was killed in the jail collapse. Her 16 year old sister, Mary Ellen, was crippled and disfigured for life, and her 10 year old little sister, Janie, had two broken legs, an injured back and lacerated face. Three other young women were also killed, all of them related to Quantrill's men. According to men that knew Anderson, (this comes primarily from fellow guerrilla William Greg), when Anderson heard about the collapse and the death of his sister, something snapped within him. Authors Albert Castel and Tom Goodrich in their book, "Bloody Bill Anderson," note the change that the occurred in Anderson, (pg. 27). "Now though, killing-especially killing enemy soldiers-became an end to itself, one driven by a bloodlust so strong that sometime Anderson would foam at the mouth and sob because he could not continue pumping bullets into more blue-clad uniformed victims." " Out of the wreckage of the building on Kansas City's Grand Avenue came not only the mangled bodies of young women. It also sparked the emergence of "Bloody Bill" Anderson, a man who lived for death and who shortly before he himself died declared: "I have killed Union soldiers until I have got sick of killing them." Slightly over a week after the jail collapse, Quantrill lead the retaliatory raid on Lawrence, KS. Anderson is credited with killing 14 men in that raid. As he departed the town, he supposedly told a Lawrence woman, "I'm here for revenge and I have got it." Hopefully you can see there was a progression here in Anderson. Oh, and after Anderson became "Bloody Bill," after the jail collapse, whenever he went into battle and was doing his killing, he called out the name "Josephine."

"Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this. There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path."
I don't think that this statement helps to prove your point. I will agree than many of the guerrillas retuned to civilian life and lead decent lives. I have a data base of nearly 800 names of guerrilla men who rode with Quantrill and his successors. I started this after reading "Bushwhackers; Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri," by Joseph Beilein, (highly recommended), and became interested, (perhaps obsessed) with the blood relationship among Quantrill's men. Nearly 40% of the men were blood related, a much higher rate than any other guerrilla group that I am aware of. And if they weren't blood related, the were friends and neighbors. In my data base, I not only note the blood relationship, but any other data if find in my readings, such if they survived the war, etc. Of those who did survive, I note that 3 or 4 became doctors, two became politicians, about a half dozen became lawmen, a couple became Judges while most returned to their farms, and a few, like David Poole became wealthy cattlemen. Many of the men left the state, perhaps they were forced out, or thought that starting over in a new state where they were not known was the better idea. And many of the names have no after war notation at all: their after war history is lost. But what is clear is that their participation as guerrillas effected all of these men in different ways. Some were able to adapt to the Radicle Republican control that disenfranchised any Southern man of Missouri for years. However, some could not, and they became outlaws, robbing trains, banks, and dyeing violent deaths. And perhaps it's just a coincidence, but overwhelmingly, the men who took an outlaw path had ridden with Anderson during the war. (btw, due to my genealogy-based research on Quantrill's men, I found that I'm very distantly related to the James boys who, of course, rode with Bill Anderson).
T. J. Stiles points this out in his book, "Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War" in referring to the 1866 daylight robbery of the Clay County Savings Association, (owned by Radical Republicans), at least 9 men were soon named as committing the robbery. After Stiles names the men, he goes on to say, "These men were the surviving core of Bill Anderson's terrorist gang, who had followed Poole, Clement, and Jim Anderson back from Texas in early 1865. Rumors and hard evidence would soon point to (Jim) Anderson and particularly Clement as the leaders of the raid." Clement, who was Bill Anderson's second in charge and took over Anderson guerrilla band after Anderson was killed was himself later killed in December of 1866. Jim Anderson (Bill's little brother), killed Ike Flannery in 1867 over a dispute about money, but was himself killed in 1868 by Ike's uncle, George Sheppard. George Sheppard, and his brother Oliver, in addition to being suspects in the 1866 Clay County bank robbery, robbed the Russelville, KY bank in 1868. Because of this, Oliver was later gunned down by police and George spent time in a KY prison. It's debated if Jesse and Frank James had anything to do with the Clay County bank robbery, but after Clement and Anderson died, the gang the James formed included many of the men suspected in the Clay County robbery. Other former Anderson guerrilla's who became members of the James-Younger gang were: Jim Cummins, (whos sister married William H. Ford, his nephew, Robert Ford, killed Jesse James). J.F. Edmunson, Wood Hite, (who was a cousin to the James Brothers and was killed Charles Ford and Dick Liddil over money taken in the Blue Cut train robbery. Thomas Liddils brother, Thomas, himself a bank robber, was hung by a mob for this activity.), Arthur McCoy, James Reed, John VanMeter, brothers John and James White, "Clell" Miller, and Jim and Cole Younger. I don't think Cole Younger rode with Anderson, but I'm not sure about his brother Jim.

Other bank robbers, but not part of the James-Younger gang include: Sam Bass, James Berry, Richard Burton, James Dever, and Andy McGuire who were all caught and hung for their bank robbing activity, and all of them rode with Anderson. Payne Jones was also a bank robber but was killed by "Jim Crow" Childs, (who was an uncle by marriage to President Truman), "Jim Crow" Chiles was later killed by the Marshall of Independence MO. Jim's son was also killed by the Marshall's son in the same shoot out. Jim Crow also ran a saloon in Texas during part of the war. One of the girls who worked for him married Bill Anderson during the 1863-64 winter. And "Jim Crow" rode with Anderson

Two Anderson men who turned train robbers after the war were brothers Hilary and Levi Farrington. They were hung in 1870.

And I don't know the particulars of this incident, but former Anderson guerrilla Jim Hedges, was killed in a gunfight in 1901.

Another book that sheds some light on Missouri guerrillas who couldn't seem to adjust to a civil life after the war is Mathew Hulbert's book, "The Ghost of Guerrilla Memory: How Civil War Bushwhackers Became Gunslingers in the American West." The tit;e give you a good idea of what the book is about.

There could very well be more Anderson men who went afoul of the law after the war, but we'll leave the list as it is. The point being that many of these men "apprenticed" their outlaw tactics while riding with Anderson, so in that sense, they most assuredly "followed Anderson's path."
That is some deep analysis. I'm gonna have to read it again when I can I think. A lot of this I'm encountering for the first time.
I see we have another Brit on board. It's good to see. I supposed I was the only one!
 
Sorry for the delayed response. I had to help support my home boys. CHIEFS!!!
I live in a small sized town of about 8,000 people 100 miles east of Kansas City. Right after the game was over, our casino set off a bunch of fireworks. How cool!

Well, I'm fascinated by the MO. Guerrillas, and I'm pleased you found it interesting. I think your correct in your speculation regarding Northern historians, but it's deeper than that. I've often said what the guerrillas lacked was a good press agent. If the South had won the war and was able to take MO. out of the Union, there would be statues of Quantrill in Western MO. It started when Kansas was opened up for settlement. The abolitionist had a huge advantage because they had some very prominent eastern press supporting their efforts. And the north won the war so they get to write the history. John Edwards wrote a very biased history of the guerrillas in a lost cause way, that may have done more damage to guerrilla history by portraying them a some type of southern saviors. That set up Connelley to refute Edwards work with his biased anti guerrilla book.
The good thing is that in the last few years the guerrillas are being looked at again by authors who seem to lack a bias, (Leslie's "The Devil Knows How to Ride"), nor aren't afraid to dig deeper into the guerrilla psychic to help explain their motivation, (Beilein, "Bushwhackers: Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri "). I'm hoping that that trend will continue. I think if one understands their motivations, the view that they were all blood thirsty savages will diminish. Neither side of the conflict in Missouri can claim sainthood, and no other state was devastated by that war more than Missouri. The war here doesn't get studied as much as in other areas as it wasn't as pretty here as in other places.

Regarding your question about the relationship between Quantril and Anderson; they didn't get along and I think that's putting it mildly. When Anderson was more horse thief than guerrilla in 1862, he didn't discriminate from northern or southern supporters in who he stole from. Quantrill heard about what Anderson was doing and took some men and went looking for him. He caught Anderson with some horses stolen from Southeners and forced Anderson to turn the horses over to him so Quantrill could return them to their owners. The meeting between the two parties was pretty tense, but Quantrill had more men, so Anderson had to submit. He was enraged and embarrassed by what happened and he and Quantity never reconciled their feelings toward each other. Then in late spring of 1863 Quantrill had just returned to MO from his trip to Richmond, VA where he tried to unsuccessfully get a Colonels commission, and as he approached his camp, all the guerrillas were very excited about a guerrilla raid a small group had just made deep into KS. And standing there, basking in glory for his part in the raid was Anderson. By now he had a few more men who rode with him, and because of his new found status, he was able to gather more under his command. In 1862 Quantrill had taken direct command in raiding activity. But in 1863 he changed his tactics. He broke his command into smaller groups under different leaders while he stayed back in camp to do the over all coordination. So by giving his sub-leaders more independence in how they commanded their men, he helped fostered his own problem that lead to his own lost of command, and respect later that year. Quantrill also had become distracted, as he had fallen in love with 14-15 year old Kate King and spent all of his available time with her. The only raid he directly led that year was the raid on Lawrence, He had been planning that raid for some time but couldn't get his sub commander to agree to it. . But once the jail collapse occurred they wanted revenge, even if it meant the loss of the lives. . By most accounts, Anderson's men did more than their share of the killing, while Quantrill hung out with some Lawrence folks he knew from the time he lived there, prewar, and perhaps getting his ego stroked by the fear he and his men generated. In the fall of 1863 while on their way to over-winter in Texas, Quantrills command came into contact with Gen. Blunt's command outside of Baxter Spring, KS. Blunts command was essentially wiped out but Quantrill was against making a major attack on the fort at Baxter Springs. He had learned the folly of men on horses armed with only six guns attacking a fortified position, but some of his men began questioning his decision.
By the time they got to Texas, Quantrill had a mutany developing with Anderson. It came to a head when a guerrilla killed a Confederate officer, and Anderson told the Confederate authorities that it was Quantrill who had ordered it done. The authorities came to arrest Quantrill, but he managed to escape capture, and Anderson was sent to catch him. Anderson and Quantrills men actually got into a shoot out for a while, but no one was hit. Anderson then took his men and headed back to MO. now able to command his men as he sought fit. Quantrill hung out in Texas for a little longer, but as he started to head back to MO. his sub-commanders gathered their men about them and broke away also free from Quantrills authority. By the time Quantrill made it back to MO. He only had a handful of loyal followers. He spent the summer of 1864 in the arms of the lovely Miss King in a hollow in Howard County here in central MO. (about 4-5 miles from where I write this), contiplating how the war is going to end for him. Anderson, Todd, and Poole now acted on their own wims, free from any over riding authority, and the level of terror and violence racheted up to new heights.
It would appear that Q and A forgot that there was a war which was occuring around them and would not set aside this penny anti differences.If these partisans in would have been lead by a man skilled in this warfare and could have had the respect of his men and been dedicated to the Confederate cause or had a cause in common instead of a force of revivals and those seeking vandeators against the past .Quantrill while at times successful leader he failed to maintain this primary respect and dedication of the ones he should have and needed.No general officer would have allowed anyone to threaten his command,Removal of the disease or risk the body becoming infected. Either by subtle means or demonstrate that this challenge would not be tolerated;Spartacus as with Quantrill ,allowed his forces to be divided.What could he had accomplished against the Romans with that force ?What could Quantrill done in that theater with Anderson force?
 
That is some deep analysis. I'm gonna have to read it again when I can I think. A lot of this I'm encountering for the first time.
I see we have another Brit on board. It's good to see. I supposed I was the only one!
The guerrilla war in Missouri was a real rat hole, are you sure you want to go there?

And we have a couple of other Britts on the forum who have members for a long time. @Waterloo50 and @rebel brit, both are real nice guys. (just don't loan them any money).
 
It would appear that Q and A forgot that there was a war which was occuring around them and would not set aside this penny anti differences.If these partisans in would have been lead by a man skilled in this warfare and could have had the respect of his men and been dedicated to the Confederate cause or had a cause in common instead of a force of revivals and those seeking vandeators against the past .Quantrill while at times successful leader he failed to maintain this primary respect and dedication of the ones he should have and needed.No general officer would have allowed anyone to threaten his command,Removal of the disease or risk the body becoming infected. Either by subtle means or demonstrate that this challenge would not be tolerated;Spartacus as with Quantrill ,allowed his forces to be divided.What could he had accomplished against the Romans with that force ?What could Quantrill done in that theater with Anderson force?
Curious whose support you think they lost? James-Youngers rode with Anderson during the war, most accounts I've read of them indicate they still had the support of most of the rural population postwar........the very same people who had supported the guerrillas during the war.........

Essentially those condemning them were Unionists and Republicans whose support they never had to lose. They became folk heroes to the rest, same as the guerrillas, why postwar both Quantrill reunions were celebrated events, and as Frank James noted tons of people would claim to have rode with the guerrillas who never had. That people postwar would be wannabes trying to attach themselves to the guerrilla popularity, doesn't indicate much a loss of support among the populace at all.
 
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I suspect that when the boys in blue realized they were up against either Forrest or Anderson, the water flowed, if you know what I mean. But the two men were not the same. Both were hard men, but Forrest kept his humanity about him; Anderson became a mad dog killer. If you were a Union soldier and your only option was surrendering, you stood a better chance of living if you surrendered to Forrest. This wouldn't be true if you surrendered to Anderson. You would be killed, and maybe scalped.

Anderson had three younger sisters that were imprisoned in a jail in Kansas City. The jail collapsed killing one of his sisters, and wounding the other two, disabling one for life. This supposedely unhinged Anderson, and from that day on whenever he went into battle, he'd go in wild-eyed and frothing at the mouth. He supposedly kept a silk cord on his body and whenever he'd kill someone he'd add another knot to the cord. At Lawrence, (which happened shortly after the jail collapse), he added something like 13 or 14 knots. By the time he was killed in the fall of 1864, a silk cord was found on his body with over 50 knots on it.

I would love the meet a psychiatrist whose hobby was the study of Missouri guerrillas so I could better understand what was going on in the mind of some of these men. Did Anderson feel responsible for what happened to his sisters? And as the war went on, he became more vicious. I think He had become surrounded by so much killing and death that I don't think he expected to live though the war. I don't mean to say that he had a death wish, but I do think he was consumed with so much hate and revenge that he couldn't see an end to it, and death was his only way out.
Have you read Inside War by Fellman?

Also have read the same attributed to troops in WW2, there's point where if ones are in dangerous combat long enough, they become fatalistic where death isn't a concern any longer.

Should note the fate of trying to surrender was the same for themselves, guerrillas did take prisoners till the Union adapted a no quarter policy.
 
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Agree, the problem with using terms as psychopath during war, is empathy for the enemy isnt encouraged.......nor is guilt for killing the enemy. Far from being anti social, many were noted as jovial and jokesters, and the group leaders certainly exhibited a charisma or they wouldnt have been followed. They were motivated in many cases by a desire to avenge wrongs done to them, however they operated in a context where that was allowed, when the war ended, and it wasnt allowed, most simply returned to civilian life as anyone else.

Throughout our history, US or Confederate, we have utilized men in wartime to operate in grey areas and conduct black ops, and most throughout our history could transition back to peacetime.......Wartime actions dont reflect personality traits IMO.

A classic example is in WW2, in the pacific it became popular to take body parts as souvenirs or disrespect enemy dead, they werent mindless bloodthirsty psychopaths IMO as most returned and lived normal lifes after the war.....though in peacetime such actions very well might be considered psychopathic..
Even more recently than that, the Vietnam war saw Troopers collecting ears from dead VC mostly.
I don't really know why people do this, but there is a very long history of it.
Mutilating a body is prohibited by the second or third Geneva convention, and probably also by the Articles of War which governs how you may and may not conduct warfare.
Unfortunately, I don't remember anyone in my old regiment that had read the articles and conventions, including myself at the time.
 
Even more recently than that, the Vietnam war saw Troopers collecting ears from dead VC mostly.
I don't really know why people do this, but there is a very long history of it.
Mutilating a body is prohibited by the second or third Geneva convention, and probably also by the Articles of War which governs how you may and may not conduct warfare.
Unfortunately, I don't remember anyone in my old regiment that had read the articles and conventions, including myself at the time.
It always struck me rather odd, mutilation or disrespecting the dead is unfortunately not all that uncommon in war. It's been throughout history, and US troops have been no exception especially in Indian wars, ACW, WW2, and Viet Nam. In the ACW historians generally conclude it originated with each sides use of Indian troops early in the war, it's first use in the Missouri guerrilla war was by Union Kansas troops. And then spread to the CS guerrillas and MSM as well...

Though it's generally brought up only in partisan attempts to try demonize only one side while somehow blindly trying to pretend it wasn't being done by both sides, or that it was only somehow unique to US troops in the ACW and hasn't occurred in others as well. An honest discussion of it and its usage by American troops is rather unpleasant, so generally avoided, so seldom see it referenced other then in partisan attempts to demonize.

After all, who likes to think ones own father or grandfather that they remember personally may have done such behavior in either Viet Nam or WW2? In WW2 it became so common that the C in C of the Pacific Fleet had to actually issue an order "No part of the enemy's body may be used as a souvenir"................
 
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The former owner who built my house was in the Pacific theater in WW2. I never met the man but did read in his obit that he was a squad leader in the army. I also heard from some of the neighbors that he had a collection of "Jap" teeth that he collected as trophies of war. I haven't found any teeth doing renovations and I hope I never do.
 
Yeah, I'm not accusing one side over the other, this is meant as a non-partisan view of this (longstanding) and disturbing practise.
 
The former owner who built my house was in the Pacific theater in WW2. I never met the man but did read in his obit that he was a squad leader in the army. I also heard from some of the neighbors that he had a collection of "Jap" teeth that he collected as trophies of war. I haven't found any teeth doing renovations and I hope I never do.
Let's hope not.
 
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