Fighting Men

As a researcher and author who has thoroughly studied Rufus Dawes, I classify him as a fearless leader of a regiment of tough, dedicated fighters. A subordinate called him "the manliest man of a manly regiment ". Rufus sets the bar as a true citizen soldier - a good comparison (that many can identify with) would be Captain Winters featured in"Band of Brothers". But as a "blood and thunder" fighting man, my thoughts go to Forrest and Custer.
As the slant on the meaning of the question as most members have interpreted it, I too would go along with Bedford Forrest as my one pick. However in the same ilk as Rufus Dawes, another man I think is underrated as a regimental combat leader is Colonel John Stone of the 2nd Mississippi. His war years are not as well documented as Dawes, who by the way, in postwar years corresponded with then Governor Stone about a couple of their personal regimental clashes at Antietam and Gettysburg. He seemed by most accounts a self-deprecating leader, well-liked by his men, never asking them to do anything he himself would not do, similar to Forrest. He was wounded several times, and if unverified but likely events are indeed true, turned down promotion following the Wilderness because he knew it would mean leaving his men and taking another command. At Petersburg, in January 1865, General Hill ordered him to take a detail back to Mississippi to recruit and "round up absentees and deserters," but Stone himself admitted had it not been for that order, he probably would not have survived the war. Even then, upon his attempted return to Virginia with a group of the men he had rounded up in Mississippi, Stone, combative to the end, volunteered to help lead the defense of Salisbury, NC against Stoneman on April 12, 1865. Obviously he had no way of knowing his beloved regiment had surrendered at Hatcher's Run some ten days prior. Men like Dawes and Stone did not exhibit the same dash and flare of men like Forrest, but in many ways they were just as fearsome in leading their men into combat.
 
I didn't know where this would go when I started it, but I'm so glad I did. All these honest-to-God battlefield warriors I've barely even heard of. It's really interesting.
Maybe we could nominate some Best-of contenders for other fields like Sniping or artillerymen. The "Gallant Pelham" springs to mind.
We can accommodate these things can't we?
 
As Cavalry men go, I'd nominate Jeb Stuart. I've heard about his escapades.
Its a bit unfair on the North I admit, but they didn't have much of a cavalry until around the time of Fredricksburg which was what, 1864? When they did finally find themselves, they were never really overmatched for the rest of the war.
I don't know who was responsible for leading these reinvigorated cavalry, but he is also probably ripe for nomination.
 
As Cavalry men go, I'd nominate Jeb Stuart. I've heard about his escapades.
Its a bit unfair on the North I admit, but they didn't have much of a cavalry until around the time of Fredricksburg which was what, 1864? When they did finally find themselves, they were never really overmatched for the rest of the war.
I don't know who was responsible for leading these reinvigorated cavalry, but he is also probably ripe for nomination.
I was just trying to define when the northern cavalry actually did find themselves. I think it was actually Gettysberg.
 
I believe it was Brandy Station - that was a real free-for-all and the Union came near whipping the Confederates. It was certainly a surprise to Jeb Stuart!
Am I right thinking that there was a huge cavalry battle, being the biggest ever cavalry battle, in this area at that time? Was that Brandy Station?
 
It was. And, we have the very gentleman who wrote the book on it here on these boards, @Eric Wittenberg .
Wow!
I've only been here a few months, and I hope you guys are happy with me, I like it here very much. I hope to add richness and content we can all enjoy.
You guys give context to my studies and a community to discuss them in.
What could be better?
 
Wow!
I've only been here a few months, and I hope you guys are happy with me, I like it here very much. I hope to add richness and content we can all enjoy.
You guys give context to my studies and a community to discuss them in.
What could be better?

You've asked an intriguing question here - sure we're happy with you! This is about the first time there's been an opportunity to discuss the warrior psychology behind these extreme fighters.
 
I do not think he meant psychopaths ,,however,I would say that any man,other that the mentioned. that fought in Missouri or Kansas would be considered ,from either side.
I didn't specify if psychos were included. But going toe to toe on the battlefield
You've asked an intriguing question here - sure we're happy with you! This is about the first time there's been an opportunity to discuss the warrior psychology behind these extreme fighters.
I'm so glad. And warfare has such a terrible effect on the psyke. People can easily loose their moral compass in war, and others just plain loose it and never get it back.
The first thing to die in war is innocence, the second is sanity the third is life. It does drive folks crazy.
But Forrest wasn't crazy, he knew exactly what he had to do. Dawes ended up going kinda crazy but was sane when he did a lot of the most serious fighting.
I dunno if we can say who was and who wasn't crazy, and war makes you do crazy things anyway. I say if a psychopath personally offed 20 or 30 men, we shouldn't discriminate on mental health grounds.
 
I suspect that when the boys in blue realized they were up against either Forrest or Anderson, the water flowed, if you know what I mean. But the two men were not the same. Both were hard men, but Forrest kept his humanity about him; Anderson became a mad dog killer. If you were a Union soldier and your only option was surrendering, you stood a better chance of living if you surrendered to Forrest. This wouldn't be true if you surrendered to Anderson. You would be killed, and maybe scalped.

Anderson had three younger sisters that were imprisoned in a jail in Kansas City. The jail collapsed killing one of his sisters, and wounding the other two, disabling one for life. This supposedely unhinged Anderson, and from that day on whenever he went into battle, he'd go in wild-eyed and frothing at the mouth. He supposedly kept a silk cord on his body and whenever he'd kill someone he'd add another knot to the cord. At Lawrence, (which happened shortly after the jail collapse), he added something like 13 or 14 knots. By the time he was killed in the fall of 1864, a silk cord was found on his body with over 50 knots on it.

I would love the meet a psychiatrist whose hobby was the study of Missouri guerrillas so I could better understand what was going on in the mind of some of these men. Did Anderson feel responsible for what happened to his sisters? And as the war went on, he became more vicious. I think He had become surrounded by so much killing and death that I don't think he expected to live though the war. I don't mean to say that he had a death wish, but I do think he was consumed with so much hate and revenge that he couldn't see an end to it, and death was his only way out.
Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer.To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor.Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this.There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path.
 
I didn't specify if psychos were included. But going toe to toe on the battlefield

I'm so glad. And warfare has such a terrible effect on the psyke. People can easily loose their moral compass in war, and others just plain loose it and never get it back.
The first thing to die in war is innocence, the second is sanity the third is life. It does drive folks crazy.
But Forrest wasn't crazy, he knew exactly what he had to do. Dawes ended up going kinda crazy but was sane when he did a lot of the most serious fighting.
I dunno if we can say who was and who wasn't crazy, and war makes you do crazy things anyway. I say if a psychopath personally offed 20 or 30 men, we shouldn't discriminate on mental health grounds.

True. Men like Forrest and Wade Hampton, who was second only to Forrest, led by example and did not expect anything out of their men they didn't expect out of themselves. Forrest was completely fearless in battle - he would run his horse full gallop into another horse to keep one of his men from being killed, get thrown and dislocate his shoulder, then come up on his feet surrounded by half a dozen Union soldiers bent on killing him...who were killed. Dedication to the reason for all this, the sense behind it, the fierce determination to success, relentless pursuit - all of it was calculated to inspire and steady the troops. If you were a psychopath, Forrest would have no use for you - in fact, he'd probably shoot you himself. These kind of fighters were skilled and trained to be calm and to think clearly when the circumstances were hardly conducive to that! And you're right that it all does something to your head. Sometimes Forrest could not wind down from a battle and he was extremely dangerous to every man around. That's when his aides would send for his wife - she was the only one who could settle him out.
 
In the army we were all encouraged to use controlled aggression, once you loose your head you can become a liability to everyone. Even in a melee, control is key. They said, "power is nothing if undirected" as armies are apt to say. Running amuck is generally frowned on, and an express ticket to hell can easily be found doing that.
Even if one were to kill a dozen enemy single-handed, would still probably end up in a stockade.
War sends good men mad. It's never been properly addressed imo.
 
In the army we were all encouraged to use controlled aggression, once you loose your head you can become a liability to everyone. Even in a melee, control is key. They said, "power is nothing if undirected" as armies are apt to say. Running amuck is generally frowned on, and an express ticket to hell can easily be found doing that.
Even if one were to kill a dozen enemy single-handed, would still probably end up in a stockade.
War sends good men mad. It's never been properly addressed imo.
For sure you are never the same afterwards.
 
In the army we were all encouraged to use controlled aggression, once you loose your head you can become a liability to everyone. Even in a melee, control is key. They said, "power is nothing if undirected" as armies are apt to say. Running amuck is generally frowned on, and an express ticket to hell can easily be found doing that.
Even if one were to kill a dozen enemy single-handed, would still probably end up in a stockade.
War sends good men mad. It's never been properly addressed imo.

There are a few really good discussions around here someplace on the subject of war madness and PTSD. Some even think the Civil War is the real origin of at least part of our current drug problem! Coca-Cola was invented by a wounded soldier looking for relief from his symptoms, for example. The asylums were full of vets who were hooked on morphine - that's what happened to the remarkable William B. Cushing. The Albemarle went down but it took Cushing with it...years later!
 
Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer.To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor.Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this.There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path.
Which makes your argument Anderson was a classic psychopathic murderer rather silly. You are correct in that men such as Dave Poole who rode and fought and in the same area he did, and were as feared and despised as Anderson, did indeed transition to postwar civilian life. Poole was a sub captain under Quantrill same as Anderson or Todd, he rode with Anderson often as well, the only difference was Poole survived the war, yet he transitioned to peacetime as most northerners and southerners did as well.

As is the claim he wasnt somehow affected by his sisters death, pretty much every historian into this area has concluded before his sisters death he was rather nondescript and average, he only rises to prominence and gathers influence after his sisters death..........
 
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Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer.To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor.Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this.There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path.
"Anderson is a classic psychopathic murderer."
It's pretty hard to look at someone who died 150+ years ago and decide what motivated them, but if one were to look at the characteristics of a psychopath, Anderson could be the 1860's Psyco poster boy. His actions, beginning in 1863, exhibits most of characteristics that psychiatrists note for psychopathy.

"To reason that he was effected by his sister's death or by the war is poor."
No, it's not, although I'll grant that your are entitled to your opinion.
In the 1860 census, 21 year old William Anderson jointly owned a Kansas farm with is father which was valued at $1000, so by the standards of the time, they were not wealthy by any means, but were better off than most of the recent settlers. In 1859, his older brother killed an Indian, fled to Iowa, and was later killed there. In 1860 his mother was stuck by lightening and killed. In 1862, his father was killed, perhaps in an "Affair of Honor" with a neighbor regarding Anderson's 15 year old sister. Anderson, now being the oldest male of his family along his younger brother Jim later killed the neighbor, and then took his sisters to Missouri where he took up what Anderson called "bushwhacking," but not for ideological reasons, but as a way to support his family by horse stealing and reselling them; the common term for this activity at the time was "Jay hawking." Prior to all of the above happenings, there was nothing remarkable the way William acted. It was said of him that he was "a good boy, as steady as a clock." While the family had moved to Kansas from Missouri in 1856-7, they took no part in the border troubles. But as the war broke out, and family misfortunes mounted "Bloody Bill" used his courage, and his diminishing lack of scruples to try and improve he and his family's economic situation. A he supposedly told a friend that he was trying to recruit into his band early in the war, "I don't care any more than you for the South, Strieby, but there is a lot of money in this business." So Anderson went from a common criminal, taking advantage of the chaos the war caused on the border, to that of a guerrilla leader.
Prior to the August 1863 jail collapse that killed his sister, Anderson had been a minor guerrilla leader, who's activities was first mentioned in a dispatch by Union authorities in July of 1863, when he and David Poole raided a German settlement in Lafayette County, (for some reason, Poole hated Germans). Poole was also a guerilla leader under Quantrill. The dispatch shows us that Anderson had joined his band with that of Poole's so he had recently placed himself under the loose authority of Quantrill. A month later, Bill's sister, Josephine Anderson, 14, was killed in the jail collapse. Her 16 year old sister, Mary Ellen, was crippled and disfigured for life, and her 10 year old little sister, Janie, had two broken legs, an injured back and lacerated face. Three other young women were also killed, all of them related to Quantrill's men. According to men that knew Anderson, (this comes primarily from fellow guerrilla William Greg), when Anderson heard about the collapse and the death of his sister, something snapped within him. Authors Albert Castel and Tom Goodrich in their book, "Bloody Bill Anderson," note the change that the occurred in Anderson, (pg. 27). "Now though, killing-especially killing enemy soldiers-became an end to itself, one driven by a bloodlust so strong that sometime Anderson would foam at the mouth and sob because he could not continue pumping bullets into more blue-clad uniformed victims." " Out of the wreckage of the building on Kansas City's Grand Avenue came not only the mangled bodies of young women. It also sparked the emergence of "Bloody Bill" Anderson, a man who lived for death and who shortly before he himself died declared: "I have killed Union soldiers until I have got sick of killing them." Slightly over a week after the jail collapse, Quantrill lead the retaliatory raid on Lawrence, KS. Anderson is credited with killing 14 men in that raid. As he departed the town, he supposedly told a Lawrence woman, "I'm here for revenge and I have got it." Hopefully you can see there was a progression here in Anderson. Oh, and after Anderson became "Bloody Bill," after the jail collapse, whenever he went into battle and was doing his killing, he called out the name "Josephine."

"Considering the fact that men who fought in the same area that he did and yet returned to civil life would tend to mute this. There were those who fought in the theater who where to become infamous after the war but none followed in his path."
I don't think that this statement helps to prove your point. I will agree than many of the guerrillas retuned to civilian life and lead decent lives. I have a data base of nearly 800 names of guerrilla men who rode with Quantrill and his successors. I started this after reading "Bushwhackers; Guerrilla Warfare, Manhood and the Household in Civil War Missouri," by Joseph Beilein, (highly recommended), and became interested, (perhaps obsessed) with the blood relationship among Quantrill's men. Nearly 40% of the men were blood related, a much higher rate than any other guerrilla group that I am aware of. And if they weren't blood related, the were friends and neighbors. In my data base, I not only note the blood relationship, but any other data if find in my readings, such if they survived the war, etc. Of those who did survive, I note that 3 or 4 became doctors, two became politicians, about a half dozen became lawmen, a couple became Judges while most returned to their farms, and a few, like David Poole became wealthy cattlemen. Many of the men left the state, perhaps they were forced out, or thought that starting over in a new state where they were not known was the better idea. And many of the names have no after war notation at all: their after war history is lost. But what is clear is that their participation as guerrillas effected all of these men in different ways. Some were able to adapt to the Radicle Republican control that disenfranchised any Southern man of Missouri for years. However, some could not, and they became outlaws, robbing trains, banks, and dyeing violent deaths. And perhaps it's just a coincidence, but overwhelmingly, the men who took an outlaw path had ridden with Anderson during the war. (btw, due to my genealogy-based research on Quantrill's men, I found that I'm very distantly related to the James boys who, of course, rode with Bill Anderson).
T. J. Stiles points this out in his book, "Jesse James: Last Rebel of the Civil War" in referring to the 1866 daylight robbery of the Clay County Savings Association, (owned by Radical Republicans), at least 9 men were soon named as committing the robbery. After Stiles names the men, he goes on to say, "These men were the surviving core of Bill Anderson's terrorist gang, who had followed Poole, Clement, and Jim Anderson back from Texas in early 1865. Rumors and hard evidence would soon point to (Jim) Anderson and particularly Clement as the leaders of the raid." Clement, who was Bill Anderson's second in charge and took over Anderson guerrilla band after Anderson was killed was himself later killed in December of 1866. Jim Anderson (Bill's little brother), killed Ike Flannery in 1867 over a dispute about money, but was himself killed in 1868 by Ike's uncle, George Sheppard. George Sheppard, and his brother Oliver, in addition to being suspects in the 1866 Clay County bank robbery, robbed the Russelville, KY bank in 1868. Because of this, Oliver was later gunned down by police and George spent time in a KY prison. It's debated if Jesse and Frank James had anything to do with the Clay County bank robbery, but after Clement and Anderson died, the gang the James formed included many of the men suspected in the Clay County robbery. Other former Anderson guerrilla's who became members of the James-Younger gang were: Jim Cummins, (whos sister married William H. Ford, his nephew, Robert Ford, killed Jesse James). J.F. Edmunson, Wood Hite, (who was a cousin to the James Brothers and was killed Charles Ford and Dick Liddil over money taken in the Blue Cut train robbery. Thomas Liddils brother, Thomas, himself a bank robber, was hung by a mob for this activity.), Arthur McCoy, James Reed, John VanMeter, brothers John and James White, "Clell" Miller, and Jim and Cole Younger. I don't think Cole Younger rode with Anderson, but I'm not sure about his brother Jim.

Other bank robbers, but not part of the James-Younger gang include: Sam Bass, James Berry, Richard Burton, James Dever, and Andy McGuire who were all caught and hung for their bank robbing activity, and all of them rode with Anderson. Payne Jones was also a bank robber but was killed by "Jim Crow" Childs, (who was an uncle by marriage to President Truman), "Jim Crow" Chiles was later killed by the Marshall of Independence MO. Jim's son was also killed by the Marshall's son in the same shoot out. Jim Crow also ran a saloon in Texas during part of the war. One of the girls who worked for him married Bill Anderson during the 1863-64 winter. And "Jim Crow" rode with Anderson

Two Anderson men who turned train robbers after the war were brothers Hilary and Levi Farrington. They were hung in 1870.

And I don't know the particulars of this incident, but former Anderson guerrilla Jim Hedges, was killed in a gunfight in 1901.

Another book that sheds some light on Missouri guerrillas who couldn't seem to adjust to a civil life after the war is Mathew Hulbert's book, "The Ghost of Guerrilla Memory: How Civil War Bushwhackers Became Gunslingers in the American West." The tit;e give you a good idea of what the book is about.

There could very well be more Anderson men who went afoul of the law after the war, but we'll leave the list as it is. The point being that many of these men "apprenticed" their outlaw tactics while riding with Anderson, so in that sense, they most assuredly "followed Anderson's path."
 

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