Enfield 53 find

[RSMorris]

I'm always deeply cautious when anyone says confederate anything. This is the Bayonet that came with it. Its by heighington and Lawrence. I think the frog is neat. I just bought a book called suppliers to the confederacy by some dude named braig carry or something. Thanks again!

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Very nice bayonet. I know nothing about it. Do you know what the stampings say at the base? Just curious

 

[JackADriscoll]

Very nice bayonet. I know nothing about it. Do you know what the stampings say at the base? Just curious

It's by heightington and Lawrence it's crown over b 47. I don't know what the half moon means.

 

[Story]

Arms importer Bannerman would be my first suspect. LIKE this post and I'll go look for their 1940 catalog, might still be in there.

Followup: only thing I could find "Enfield w/ VR" wise was this description that sounds like a Pattern 1842 Rifled Musket.
There was only one P53 listing, text was 90% illegible but something about "Confederate" mumblemumble.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Followup: only thing I could find "Enfield w/ VR" wise was this description that sounds like a Pattern 1842 Rifled Musket.
There was only one P53 listing, text was 90% illegible but something about "Confederate" mumblemumble.
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6.00. wow

 

[Story]

6.00. wow

Most inflation calculators offer that 6 dollars in 1940 had the same buying power as 126.07 current dollars currently. The difference between that figure and current prices for the same antiquity is the attrition rate - fewer examples/higher asking prices.

 

[3rd North Carolina]

very nice piece

 

[Old Soldier]

Warning: This is a research-as-I-go comment - my thoughts. Be warned!

First thoughts: It is NOT an issue Enfield P1853. The VR on the lock plate had a dot to separate V.R. and the examiner's mark is not the standard Enfield or Birmingham one. It MAY be a Belgian rifle, but that would have Liege proofs on the barrel but this one has just an 'S' in oval. It does appear that one of the 'British' stamps on the barrel is overstamping a 'star'+letter which was a Belgian makers mark and, if this is the case, the other inspectors marks (too many for an issue weapon) are overstamping Belgian proofs. There would also be acceptance marks for a service weapon - arrow over WD. These are on all foreign contact weapons which were fire-tested for group in batches and marked up if passed. The inspectors marks would not normally be present and never in this quantity. These marks are very suspect.

Thinking on: The butt circle is NOT the British issue one nor are the 'sold out of service' arrows (-X-) which appear to be one single stamp not the opposed single stamps normally used. Unusual, but not impossible. It has the wrong ramrod, as these type 2s had a 'tulip' type ramrod with a 'swell' to fit into the top band to hold them in. This rifle shows no sign of a ramrod spring drift pin below the lower band. These later ramrods were also wider and would not easly fit the channel in the older stocks! No British weapons were serialised like this - but Portuguese ones were. On inspection, the 'inspector's stamps' were not British. (Were they added later to 'sell'?)

Final thoughts: So what the **** is it? I will go back on my first statement and say it MAY be a surplus issue weapon. Further research reveals that the 'V+R' and the italic date are found on FRENCH manufactured rifles - some 20,000 - contracted to the St Etienne Arsenal from 1855-58 to make up losses from the Crimean War and to replace the Minie Rifle. The 'S' in oval' actually has a crown above it, which was the proof mark for St Etienne and appears on the stock as well. The inspector's marks may well be St Etienne inspectors marks too. (Crown = Napoleon III - Emperor of France)

These Type 2s are RARE items as those that were issued had a hard life. It MAY be one of the last batches and kept in reserve but should still have that acceptance mark . The Type 2s were gradually put into reserve with the introduction of the Type 3 in 1858 and many would have been sold off as surplus. Both sides in the Civil War bought them in from various sources. So where did the serial numbers come from? Portugal, perhaps, but also on Confederate weapons bought in. As to whether the Union forces bought them in is questionable, however, they are seen with both Union and Confererate Forces, but may well be 'war booty' and returned to issue, replacing smoothbores. Being 'sold out of service' means they would have been bought from civilian gun dealers. The ramrod may well have been an in-service or a dealer modification.

In all, darn good value for $200.

 

[JackADriscoll]

Warning: This is a research-as-I-go comment - my thoughts. Be warned!

First thoughts: It is NOT an issue Enfield P1853. The VR on the lock plate had a dot to separate V.R. and the examiner's mark is not the standard Enfield or Birmingham one. It MAY be a Belgian rifle, but that would have Liege proofs on the barrel but this one has just an 'S' in oval. It does appear that one of the 'British' stamps on the barrel is overstamping a 'star'+letter which was a Belgian makers mark and, if this is the case, the other inspectors marks (too many for an issue weapon) are overstamping Belgian proofs. There would also be acceptance marks for a service weapon - arrow over WD. These are on all foreign contact weapons which were fire-tested for group in batches and marked up if passed. The inspectors marks would not normally be present and never in this quantity. These marks are very suspect.

Thinking on: The butt circle is NOT the British issue one nor are the 'sold out of service' arrows (-X-) which appear to be one single stamp not the opposed single stamps normally used. Unusual, but not impossible. It has the wrong ramrod, as these type 2s had a 'tulip' type ramrod with a 'swell' to fit into the top band to hold them in. This rifle shows no sign of a ramrod spring drift pin below the lower band. These later ramrods were also wider and would not easly fit the channel in the older stocks! No British weapons were serialised like this - but Portuguese ones were. On inspection, the 'inspector's stamps' were not British. (Were they added later to 'sell'?)

Final thoughts: So what the **** is it? I will go back on my first statement and say it MAY be a surplus issue weapon. Further research reveals that the 'V+R' and the italic date are found on FRENCH manufactured rifles - some 20,000 - contracted to the St Etienne Arsenal from 1855-58 to make up losses from the Crimean War and to replace the Minie Rifle. The 'S' in oval' actually has a crown above it, which was the proof mark for St Etienne and appears on the stock as well. The inspector's marks may well be St Etienne inspectors marks too. (Crown = Napoleon III - Emperor of France)

View attachment 448990

These Type 2s are RARE items as those that were issued had a hard life. It MAY be one of the last batches and kept in reserve but should still have that acceptance mark . The Type 2s were gradually put into reserve with the introduction of the Type 3 in 1858 and many would have been sold off as surplus. Both sides in the Civil War bought them in from various sources. So where did the serial numbers come from? Portugal, perhaps, but also on Confederate weapons bought in. As to whether the Union forces bought them in is questionable, however, they are seen with both Union and Confererate Forces, but may well be 'war booty' and returned to issue, replacing smoothbores. Being 'sold out of service' means they would have been bought from civilian gun dealers. The ramrod may well have been an in-service or a dealer modification.

In all, darn good value for $200.

Wow! Thanks for taking the time

 

[johan_steele]

Keep in mind the P53 was the Kalishnikov of the 19th century and they saw service all over the world with them being purchased just as quickly as they could be manufactured. A lot of country's issued them to their military. To me it is an absolute steal at $200 and I would be happy to have it in my collection simply because I've wanted a Type 2 Windsor for quite some time but have given up on them because when I do find them they're either grossly overpriced or I can't afford it when I find it..

 

[Old Soldier]

Wow! Thanks for taking the time

This is one of the reasons I am on this site - it makes me research. As I said, these St Etienne rifles are a rarity and all P53s in the UK are now high price - and most are civilian P53s - like the ones used in the Civil War. Most of the surviving Type 3s and 4s in service in the UK were converted into Snider-Enfield breechloaders between 1866 and 1869.

As for being a 'Kalashnikov' it really is nowhere near. The countries of the Empire got them - Australia New Zealand and Canada - and Portugal. Older versions were sold onto Japan and China, but that is about it. The gunsmiths of Birmingham made them for the Volunteer movement in the UK - many as good as, but some poorer than the Enfield version. The American Civil War was a boost for them but quality suffered. (Yours is not one of them) Many poor quality ones were 'trade guns' for Africa, and the Indian army had a smoothbore version. The reason the Afghans made those copies was mainly the fact that they only had P53s to copy!

 

[johan_steele]

The P53 or copy the rod saw service on every continent except Antarctica. That continued until the metallic cartridge made them utterly obsolete.