Enfield 53 find

[RSMorris]

There are several in the Wray book with VR under the crown that were used by the south. Sooooo I am guessing some did make it over. I know a couple here are adamant none made it. But I find it hard to believe of all the guns bought/brought from England, 0 had the VR stamp.

 

[UCVRelics]

There are several in the Wray book with VR under the crown that were used by the south. Sooooo I am guessing some did make it over. I know a couple here are adamant none made it. But I find it hard to believe of all the guns bought/brought from England, 0 had the VR stamp.

Some did in the early days of the CW. CS agents went to England even before the first shot at Sumter and bought what they could get.

 

[bayonet]

There are several in the Wray book with VR under the crown that were used by the south. Sooooo I am guessing some did make it over. I know a couple here are adamant none made it. But I find it hard to believe of all the guns bought/brought from England, 0 had the VR stamp.

Not being "adamant" just going on what I've seen over and over here. But if some did make it here early on and not many then my Man might have brought a $200 rifle that is worth $2000 or way more.

 

[RSMorris]

I don't have a dog in this fight. I just remembered this same argument a while back. I was reading the Wray book while I was hospital sitting a family member and recalled those VR stamps showing up in the south.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

For a type I or II to be considered a Civil war import it needs to have Confederate viewers marks. There were indeed some older government P53s that ended up in America. I have never encountered a legit Confederate type I or II that has sold out of service arrows on it either. CS viewer marked P53 type Is and IIs are exceedingly rare.

This is a Confederate viewer marked P1853 type II from my collection.

OP's musket has no markings to support that it was imported for use in the US during the Civil War. It is however, a nice example of a Belgian made British military P1853 type II. For $200 he did very well.

 

[Cornpone and Molasses]

For a type I or II to be considered a Civil war import it needs to have Confederate viewers marks. There were indeed some older government P53s that ended up in America. I have never encountered a legit Confederate type I or II that has sold out of service arrows on it either. CS viewer marked P53 type Is and IIs are exceedingly rare.

This is a Confederate viewer marked P1853 type II from my collection.
View attachment 448672View attachment 448673View attachment 448674

OP's musket has no markings to support that it was imported for use in the US during the Civil War. It is however, a nice example of a Belgian made British military P1853 type II. For $200 he did very well.

Did you buy your Enfield from Tim Prince at College Hill?

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Did you buy your Enfield from Tim Prince at College Hill?

Not this one. I snuck up on it at a little Illinois auction. I'm still looking for a CS viewer marked type I; those are rare birds indeed!

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Both of y'all need to chill. Looks like a question for or resident Enfield expert. @Craig L Barry. I can say that some early war Enfields did have a VR but Craig can break it down better than I can.

Yep, never had a chance to chill, had to go to work. Sorry I was out of hand, I can't stand rudeness.

But it is interesting to see folks quoting the book I was gonna drag out when I got home that I was sure had a reference or two to what I was saying.

Either way, way more informed folks than I have spoken.

 

[Craig L Barry]

I like the saying, "you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." So what are the facts? First, to say that no P53 Enfield long rifles marked V*R were used in the US Civil war is incorrect. The royal cypher V*R stands for Victoria Regina (Queen Victoria). And virtually every single London Armoury (LA Co) marked lock plate produced during the US Civil War-era had the royal cypher whether made for commercial export or a British Government contract. LA Co produced them the same way and used the same machinery regardless of the customer. The US and CS both had contracts filled by LA Co which were marked V*R. Were those made for US/CS contracts identical to the British Government contracts? Without getting too deep into the woods, there is some evidence that those made for export to the US/CS had primarily Palmer type barrel bands vs Baddeley bands as specified for the British Government contracts. Even that distinction though is not absolute. Some with Baddeley type bands may have been imported late in the Civil War. Anecdotally, Baddeley type bands were claimed to be dug by relic hunters in Georgia. So who knows? The LA Co P53s were imported in pretty large numbers, and they were all marked V*R under the crown behind the hammer. So put that notion to rest. It is difficult to deal in absolutes about every commercial P53 Enfield because there were so many different commercial gunmakers producing them.

So let's consider this particular Enfield and what we probably have here. What I am seeing in the pictures here is a P53 type II Belgian Liege produced weapon. The British Government bought something like 150,000 from the Belgian gunmakers in Liege during the mid-1850s when the Birmingham commercial gunmakers could not supply all their needs, or what they did produce failed inspection with gauges. This type II looks like one of the type II Enfields produced for those contracts. Type II's were not nearly as commonly found in the US Civil War as the later type IIIs. However, some type IIs did see US Civil War service, for example the Robbins and Lawrence produced WINDSOR marked Enfields were type IIs. Once again, difficult to deal in absolutes, but type IIs are much less often found with US Civil War use. For one thing a lot fewer of that type were produced.

Is it possible that this particular Belgian P53 type II may have been sold off as surplus and shipped to the US or CS? I don't see any evidence that it was accepted into military service by either the US government or CS government. What can be said is the presence of the V+R cypher, which is how the Belgians marked it, the year in italics in front of the hammer, the British military rack and issue marks on the butt plate tang and other storekeeper marks in the stock are usually considered as strong evidence that this particular Enfield did not see any US Civil War service.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

For a type I or II to be considered a Civil war import it needs to have Confederate viewers marks. There were indeed some older government P53s that ended up in America. I have never encountered a legit Confederate type I or II that has sold out of service arrows on it either. CS viewer marked P53 type Is and IIs are exceedingly rare.

This is a Confederate viewer marked P1853 type II from my collection.
View attachment 448672View attachment 448673View attachment 448674

OP's musket has no markings to support that it was imported for use in the US during the Civil War. It is however, a nice example of a Belgian made British military P1853 type II. For $200 he did very well.

Dang, I'm not sure you gave me a heads up on that acquisition. You never cease to amaze on what you find.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

First, to say that no P53 Enfield long rifles marked V*R were used in the US Civil war is incorrect. The royal cypher V*R stands for Victoria Regina (Queen Victoria). For example, virtually every single London Armoury (LA Co) marked lock plate produced during the US Civil War-era had the royal cypher whether made for commercial export or a British Government contract. LA Co produced them the same way and used the same machinery regardless of the customer. Without getting too deep into the woods, there is some evidence that those made for export to the US/CS had mostly Palmer type barrel bands vs Baddeley bands as specified for the British Government contracts. Even that distinction though is not absolute. Some with Baddeley type bands may have been imported late in the Civil War. Anecdotally, Baddeley type bands were claimed to be dug by relic hunters in Georgia. So who knows? The LA Co P53s were exported in pretty large numbers, and they were all marked V*R. So put that notion to rest. It is difficult to deal in absolutes with the P53 Enfield because there were so many different commercial gunmakers producing them.

So what about this one? What I am seeing in the pictures here with this particular P53 is a Belgian Liege produced weapon, the British Government bought something like 150,000 from the Belgian gunmakers in the mid-1850s when the Birmingham commercial gunmakers could not supply all their needs. This type II looks like one of those. Type II's were not nearly as commonly found in the US Civil War as the later Type IIIs. However, some type IIs did see US Civil War service, for example the Robbins and Lawrence produced WINDSOR marked Enfields were type IIs. Once again, difficult to deal in absolutes.

Is it possible that this particular Belgian P53 type II may have been sold off as surplus and shipped to the US or CS? I don't see any evidence that it was accepted into military service by either the US government or CS government. What can be said is the presence of the V+R cypher, which is how the Belgians marked it, the year in italics in front of the hammer, the British military rack and issue marks on the buttplate tangs and other storekeeper marks in the stock are usually considered as strong evidence that this particular Enfield did not see any US Civil War service.

And I'm reminded why I need to read one or two of your books...

So, I've always heard correctly on that style of markings being Belgian?

 

[bayonet]

Yep, never had a chance to chill, had to go to work. Sorry I was out of hand, I can't stand rudeness.

But it is interesting to see folks quoting the book I was gonna drag out when I got home that I was sure had a reference or two to what I was saying.

Either way, way more informed folks than I have spoken.

Sorry my Man not being rude just going on what I've seen numerous times here on that VR but Mr. Berry has clarified somewhat. Cheers

 

[bayonet]

I like the saying, "you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." So what are the facts? First, to say that no P53 Enfield long rifles marked V*R were used in the US Civil war is incorrect. The royal cypher V*R stands for Victoria Regina (Queen Victoria). And virtually every single London Armoury (LA Co) marked lock plate produced during the US Civil War-era had the royal cypher whether made for commercial export or a British Government contract. LA Co produced them the same way and used the same machinery regardless of the customer. The US and CS both had contracts filled by LA Co which were marked V*R. Were those made for US/CS contracts identical to the British Government contracts? Without getting too deep into the woods, there is some evidence that those made for export to the US/CS had primarily Palmer type barrel bands vs Baddeley bands as specified for the British Government contracts. Even that distinction though is not absolute. Some with Baddeley type bands may have been imported late in the Civil War. Anecdotally, Baddeley type bands were claimed to be dug by relic hunters in Georgia. So who knows? The LA Co P53s were imported in pretty large numbers, and they were all marked V*R under the crown behind the hammer. So put that notion to rest. It is difficult to deal in absolutes about every commercial P53 Enfield because there were so many different commercial gunmakers producing them.

So let's consider this particular Enfield and what we probably have here. What I am seeing in the pictures here is a P53 type II Belgian Liege produced weapon. The British Government bought something like 150,000 from the Belgian gunmakers in Liege during the mid-1850s when the Birmingham commercial gunmakers could not supply all their needs, or what they did produce failed inspection. This type II looks like one of those. Type II's were not nearly as commonly found in the US Civil War as the later type IIIs. However, some type IIs did see US Civil War service, for example the Robbins and Lawrence produced WINDSOR marked Enfields were type IIs. Once again, difficult to deal in absolutes, but type IIs are much less often found with US Civil War use.

Is it possible that this particular Belgian P53 type II may have been sold off as surplus and shipped to the US or CS? I don't see any evidence that it was accepted into military service by either the US government or CS government. What can be said is the presence of the V+R cypher, which is how the Belgians marked it, the year in italics in front of the hammer, the British military rack and issue marks on the butt plate tangs and other storekeeper marks in the stock are usually considered as strong evidence that this particular Enfield did not see any US Civil War service.

OK my fear here is that down the road less than scrupulous dealers will start selling any VR marked Enfield and claim its ACW use. Had a Rev War sword on my wall for 25-30 years all because a Man wrote a book in the early 70s and I had the exact same one in the book markings and all. Years later research shows it was produced in 1816, down it came and traded away.
So how can a young collector determine which VR marked lock plate Enfields where here during the ACW and which were most likely not?
You mentioned La Co and 2 other contractors in your second paragraph. I don't have many of the books others have but I have some. Any way you can make a list of possible VR marked lock plates and the Contractors of Enfields here during the ACW plus markings to look for here?
About 35 or more years ago I got my Enfield and a "expert" told me it was Union and the markings were Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham. Well years ago here on this website the better experts said its Sinclair, Hamilton, & Co plus the other markings make it Confederate.
Guess I should not have used the word "Fact" here early on but went on that I've seen here over time.

 

[Rusk County Avengers]

Sorry my Man not being rude just going on what I've seen numerous times here on that VR but Mr. Berry has clarified somewhat. Cheers

We all get ahead of ourselves from time to time.

 

[bayonet]

For a type I or II to be considered a Civil war import it needs to have Confederate viewers marks. There were indeed some older government P53s that ended up in America. I have never encountered a legit Confederate type I or II that has sold out of service arrows on it either. CS viewer marked P53 type Is and IIs are exceedingly rare.

This is a Confederate viewer marked P1853 type II from my collection.
View attachment 448672View attachment 448673View attachment 448674

OP's musket has no markings to support that it was imported for use in the US during the Civil War. It is however, a nice example of a Belgian made British military P1853 type II. For $200 he did very well.

OK digging alittle deeper in what books I have it appears as Mr. Ucvrelics said earlier that the VR marked ones came here before the ACW kicked off or the first shot was fired. Those being just the Type I or II. Further it appears the mass majority imported by both sides here during the ACW were type IIIs with no VR markings (that correct?). So for young or not so experienced collectors, one has to careful of the VR lock plate marked Enfields if one truly wants a ACW weapon in their collection.

 

[JackADriscoll]

I just want to say this was an incredible post to read. Thanks for your banter and knowledge. I'm into antique weapons and I just wanted to show off a neat score and now I found a rabbit hole to learn about. Thanks as always friends! I'll show the Bayonet that came with it soon

 

[Craig L Barry]

You are to be excused if you don't find all this as riveting as I do. I think what makes all this interesting is the history of what you are looking at in the context of the material culture of the mid-19th century which discourages dealing in absolutes. These things weren't done with an eye toward what collectors and Civil War buffs would find important 160 years later. The War Department (British Government) used the V*R mark as a way of identifying military arms which passed their inspection and could be issued to their own troops. The British Government did not knowingly sell to either side in the US Civil War, unlike the Austrians who did sell their obsolete arms from the Royal Armory.

The TOWER lock plate marking was also intended to suggest that the weapon passed a government inspection with gauges at the "Tower" government arms inspection facility. There was one in Birmingham on Bagot Street and of course, the Tower of London. We know none of the hundreds of thousands of Birmingham Small Arms Trade commercially produced P53s marked TOWER ever got anywhere near a British Government arms inspection facility. And of course, these were widely used by both sides in the Civil War.

London Armoury had a set of the same machinery as the Royal Small Arms Manufactory, which possessed two sets. LA Co did this with an eye toward selling parts interchangeable P53 Enfield long rifles to the War Department. Then the US Civil broke out. In fact, LA Co had to finish up a War Department contract before beginning to first fill orders for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and then Caleb Huse for the CS Government. London Armoury sold their products to anyone that had the money, and with whomever it was legal to transact business with, including both American governments during the Civil War. Their minimum order at one point was 10,000 arms. LA Co did not for a moment concern itself that the V*R on the lock plate might run contrary to what other commercial gunmakers in London and Birmingham were doing and could be confusing to collectors 160 years later.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

OK digging alittle deeper in what books I have it appears as Mr. Ucvrelics said earlier that the VR marked ones came here before the ACW kicked off or the first shot was fired. Those being just the Type I or II. Further it appears the mass majority imported by both sides here during the ACW were type IIIs with no VR markings (that correct?). So for young or not so experienced collectors, one has to careful of the VR lock plate marked Enfields if one truly wants a ACW weapon in their collection.

I'm not sure what exact timeframe is implied by "before the ACW kicked off or before the first shot was fired", that seems to be somewhat vague and likely includes southern purchases of American made Robbins & Lawrence P1853 type IIs. Known Southern purchases of R&L type IIs are known to have been undertaken by Alabama and Georgia, and were certainly part of the ~5,600 guns set up by the Vermont Arms Co after R&L went bankrupt. While the original contract intent was for those arms to be sold to the British government, those 5,600 guns never made it across the Atlantic.

Confederate imported British P1853 type Is and IIs are found with the SHC arrow marking like the example I shared, and a handful of P1853 type IIs are known with engraved inventory numbers and JS anchor stamps. The inventory numbered guns are without doubt from the second Confederate government contract with Sinclair, Hamilton & Company which was enacted in October 1861. The SHC arrow mark was quite possibly used on the first contract, of which little information is known. One can assume, however, based on records from the following contracts, that it was likely for 30,000 guns to be delivered over 6 months, which should put the origination time of the first contract around April of 1861.

I would caution anyone who doesn't really know what they are looking at to proceed with caution if looking at purchasing an allegedly Confederate type I or II. Legitimate examples are among the rarest of Civil War imports; at this point I think it is safe to say that there are probably only around a dozen examples known at present. The overwhelming majority of type Is and IIs are plain British military guns with no Civil War affiliation at all. And then there are boatloads of Indian/Afghan/Nepalese type IIs on the market as well.
One cannot underestimate the value of a good reference library and the immeasurable advantage of having someone in-the-know to mentor you until you are sure what it is you are looking at.

 

[JackADriscoll]

I'm always deeply cautious when anyone says confederate anything. This is the Bayonet that came with it. Its by heighington and Lawrence. I think the frog is neat. I just bought a book called suppliers to the confederacy by some dude named braig carry or something. Thanks again!

 

[bayonet]

I'm not sure what exact timeframe is implied by "before the ACW kicked off or before the first shot was fired", that seems to be somewhat vague and likely includes southern purchases of American made Robbins & Lawrence P1853 type IIs. Known Southern purchases of R&L type IIs are known to have been undertaken by Alabama and Georgia, and were certainly part of the ~5,600 guns set up by the Vermont Arms Co after R&L went bankrupt. While the original contract intent was for those arms to be sold to the British government, those 5,600 guns never made it across the Atlantic.

Confederate imported British P1853 type Is and IIs are found with the SHC arrow marking like the example I shared, and a handful of P1853 type IIs are known with engraved inventory numbers and JS anchor stamps. The inventory numbered guns are without doubt from the second Confederate government contract with Sinclair, Hamilton & Company which was enacted in October 1861. The SHC arrow mark was quite possibly used on the first contract, of which little information is known. One can assume, however, based on records from the following contracts, that it was likely for 30,000 guns to be delivered over 6 months, which should put the origination time of the first contract around April of 1861.

I would caution anyone who doesn't really know what they are looking at to proceed with caution if looking at purchasing an allegedly Confederate type I or II. Legitimate examples are among the rarest of Civil War imports; at this point I think it is safe to say that there are probably only around a dozen examples known at present. The overwhelming majority of type Is and IIs are plain British military guns with no Civil War affiliation at all. And then there are boatloads of Indian/Afghan/Nepalese type IIs on the market as well.
One cannot underestimate the value of a good reference library and the immeasurable advantage of having someone in-the-know to mentor you until you are sure what it is you are looking at.

So in simple laymen terms as you mention one has to be very careful as a collector in trying to tie VR lock plate marked Enfields to ACW usage. For finding one is rare for there were not many and will no doubt fetch a high price $. If thats the case and I was not too far off than I only feel like half a Knucklehead!