What is this? Early Spencer

[johan_steele]

I own a Spencer, I have also dealt with a Sharps M1870. The Spencer and Sharps had many interchangeable parts to include barrels. My theory, and it is just that, is someone caught on to putting a .50-70 Sharps barrel onto a Spencer. The .50-70 cartridge is considerably longer than the .56 Spencer. But as any competent gunsmith can tell you that is an obstacle that can be dealt with.

All I can say is what I have seen over the years at shows, shoots and gunshops. I have seen quite a few surplus Spencers converted to various other cartridges. To include .44/40, .44 Ballard etc. With Spencer's available on the Surplus market for cheap it isn't difficult to see gunsmiths picking them up and modifying them to fit the market. As I said I've seen 3 .50-70 and several others over the years. Never been able to afford one.

I've fired a couple original Spencer's. I watched a man ringing steel with his Spencer rifle at a buffalo shoot. He was firing .50-70 ammo with Vernier sights. It was an original full length military rifle converted post war. It was very memorable to me as I know the .56 won't/can't do that.

I also handled both the Sharps and Spencer in .50-70 I mentioned further up thread. Why, because the owner and I had a wonderful talk about 19th century firearms. He also let me handle his M1817 in original flint. He had spent .50-70 cartridges chambered. Up to that point the only .50-70's I had seen were in Sharps or trapdoors. It was memorable and a valuable learning experience. I remember commenting on it and his comment that any vaguely competent gunsmith could make the alteration.

Now, having seen and handled several over the years I have no doubt it was not only possible but happened. Something like 200,000 Spencer's were made many ended up in the surplus market or went home with the men. So they were readily available to be handed to a gunsmith to modify.

I have also handled a Spencer rifle that went to France along with many others so more than just US smiths had an opportunity to play and experiment.

In short, too late I know, I can vouch that Spencer's in .50-70 exist. And they will shoot accurately. How common, is entirely unknown to me. But as I have seen several in the Midwest enough that several survived 150+ years in shootable condition take it as you will.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

A very interesting discussion
I have understood that it is not the barrel that is the limiting factor since the chamber can be lengthened or the barrel replaced, but the receiver is the limitation because it is too short to allow a longer cartridge to pass from the magazine through the receiver on the way to the chamber.
Since the Spencer can be loaded by hand through the open top by hand (sort of like the rolling block action) I would expect the Spencer could be used as a single shot but not a repeater.
The Spencer book discusses modifications I'll take a look to see if it mentions this topic

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I have looked at Marcot't book on the Spencer and he is clear that the Spencer action was limited to cartridges of only two inches in length, shorter than the .50-70.
He says at page 161 that many hundreds were converted in recent times to center fire so that modern Civil War enthusiasts could shoot their cut-down .50-70 center fire cases. The 50-70 case is less than two inches so maybe they would work if the bullet was set deep into the case.

 

[LouG.]

You're right, Jeff---if you seat the bullet in the case so that the bullet nose is flush with the case mouth, it will probably drop into the breechblock mortise in the top of the receiver---but then it's not a "standard .50-70" any more. Maybe (because of the loss of powder space) it's a .50-50---which brings us to an interesting point. There's a little-known centerfire cartridge, the ".50 Carbine," which is listed in both the Winchester and Remington catalogs of the 1870s, '80s, and '90s. The 1891 Winchester catalog gives its length as "1-7/20", which translates to 1.350." According to these catalogs, the cartridge is: "Adapted to United States, Sharp [sic], and Remington's Carbines." In other words, it's a factory-shortened .50-70, loaded with a 400-grain bullet and 45 to 50 grains of powder. No doubt a number of Spencers were converted to fire this round---but it's still not a .50-70.

As for the comment by the Armorer's acquaintance that a competent gunsmith could easily modify the Spencer to take the standard .50-70---well (aside from my own abilities in this area), I'll just ask why Springfield Armory didn't choose to do that when the technicians there altered those 1100 Spencer carbines to infantry rifles in 1871. After all, the .50-70 cartridge had already been in service for some four years, and the Spencer lockup was certainly strong enough to handle that round.

Enough said. The best to all here.

 

[26Intrepid]

FWIW when your father bought that rifle & carbine ammo was still available. If he or the previous owner put in a center fire block it was even more so, especially if he was reloading. A real gem to have that kind of family connection.

A while back I talked with an older gunshop owner. He said when he got back from Vietnam in 69 he bought a retiring business then bought out the sporting section of the hardware store next door where they had a barrel of Spencer carbines and several cases of ammo. He said he paid $150 for 12 Spencer carbines & a Sharps as well as a couple muzzle loaders, trapdoors and 20-30k assorted rounds of ammo ito include an unopened case of Spencer ammo.

One of the Spencer's had been converted to .50-70. He kept that Spencer and the Sharps carbine converted to the same. He said Spencer and Sharps were both great deer rifles. He retired back in 06 I think. Great guy and great shooter.

Now thats a great story! Right place at the right time… perfect!

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

There's quite a bit of discussion on the Spencer book about the Army testing in the late War years to find a cartridge could be used in many weapons both current and future. There was one letter reproduced that was the only discussion the researcher found that spoke of a Spencer experimentally modified to as a test piece.