What is this? Early Spencer

[Dude Cogburn]

Howdy! Just joined the forum and interested in learning more about a gun my father passed down to me. It is a Spencer rifle, and there are no inspection or cartouche marks to be found anywhere. It is a Spencer, not a Burnside, and the serial number is 3203. I read that some of the early Spencers were purchased by the solders themselves. Any suggestions on how I could find some historical references to this firearm?

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

There's some great saddle wear to that forestock!
That said, the rear sight is a Model 1865 sight and not a Model 1860 sight.
There are three Spencer Models with serial 3023 ( the Model 1860, the Model 1865 and the Burnside Model 1865) and if you want to identity what model you have, lots more photos would be a start to identification.

It is difficult to know how much of this was changed or modified over the years, but lots of photos might get you some good info. The parts of these various models interchange and these Spencers were used for decades after the War and the users modified them to suit their wishes and they used what parts they had available to keep them in working order!

 

[bobinwmass]

Since it is a Spencer Rifle that appears to have the front stock cut down (too bad as that hurts the value to collectors) for that serial number I think we only have 2 options, the Model 1860 and Model 1865 rifles. The other rifles would have higher serial numbers according to Flayderman. If a Model 1860 it would have been issued early enough to have possibly seen considerable action in the Civil War. If a Model 1865 it would have seen no Civil War use. Photos of the top of the barrel where it meets the receiver, of the hammer where it meets the receiver, of the magazine cover in the butt stock, and the area in front of the trigger would be most helpful in identifying which model it is.

 

[johan_steele]

A couple things. Some of these were converted to .50-70 after the war. There is a collectors market for those.

The cartouche would be on the left side of the wrist above the trigger guard. It's likely worn. These were very heavily used so to me one in stellar condition is a warning sign.

Remove the magazine follower and look at the tube inside the stock, if it's Brass you indeed have an early one. If not she's a little later manufacture. Mine is S/N 2787.

The barrel bands and fore stock are the same as a Sharps rifle so if you wanted to restore her it could be done fairly easily. Easy work for Lodgewood and I believe they have the necessary parts. But I probably would leave her, especially if she's been converted to .50-70. FWIW the one I saw being fired at a buffalo shoot was ringing steel at 800 yards on out.

 

[johan_steele]

The book you want is "Spencer Repeating Firearms" by Marcot. But she a little spendy.

 

[JOHN42768]

Howdy! Just joined the forum and interested in learning more about a gun my father passed down to me. It is a Spencer rifle, and there are no inspection or cartouche marks to be found anywhere. It is a Spencer, not a Burnside, and the serial number is 3203. I read that some of the early Spencers were purchased by the solders themselves. Any suggestions on how I could find some historical references to this firearm?View attachment 544829View attachment 544830

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Dude Cogburn]

I shot some more pictures and it is an 1860 Spencer. Looked high and low and could not find any inspection or cartouches, the gun has definitely seen some wear and tear. Attached are the latest pics. I did take a look at the tube inside the stock and you can still see that brass color.

Just to give you some more color on the rifle, I went to a gun show in Huron, SD with my Dad when I was 10 years old back in 1967. He bought this Spencer rifle and a Burnside Spencer carbine that day. It was just me and my Dad at the gun show that day & my nine other siblings all stayed home, so this was quite a special treat for me. I have very fond memories of that day.

I will save the Burnside Spencer carbine for another post. If ya'll can shed some historical light on this beauty I would be eternally grateful.

 

[johan_steele]

You have an absolute gem, especially with the connection to your father. With that S/N it almost certainly saw real service. Yours was likely delivered in April of 1863.

 

[captaindrew]

Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your Spencer with us.

 

[johan_steele]

FWIW when your father bought that rifle & carbine ammo was still available. If he or the previous owner put in a center fire block it was even more so, especially if he was reloading. A real gem to have that kind of family connection.

A while back I talked with an older gunshop owner. He said when he got back from Vietnam in 69 he bought a retiring business then bought out the sporting section of the hardware store next door where they had a barrel of Spencer carbines and several cases of ammo. He said he paid $150 for 12 Spencer carbines & a Sharps as well as a couple muzzle loaders, trapdoors and 20-30k assorted rounds of ammo ito include an unopened case of Spencer ammo.

One of the Spencer's had been converted to .50-70. He kept that Spencer and the Sharps carbine converted to the same. He said Spencer and Sharps were both great deer rifles. He retired back in 06 I think. Great guy and great shooter.

 

[Trooper "D"]

I shot some more pictures and it is an 1860 Spencer. Looked high and low and could not find any inspection or cartouches, the gun has definitely seen some wear and tear. Attached are the latest pics. I did take a look at the tube inside the stock and you can still see that brass color.

Just to give you some more color on the rifle, I went to a gun show in Huron, SD with my Dad when I was 10 years old back in 1967. He bought this Spencer rifle and a Burnside Spencer carbine that day. It was just me and my Dad at the gun show that day & my nine other siblings all stayed home, so this was quite a special treat for me. I have very fond memories of that day.

I will save the Burnside Spencer carbine for another post. If ya'll can shed some historical light on this beauty I would be eternally grateful.View attachment 544904View attachment 544905View attachment 544906View attachment 544907View attachment 544908View attachment 544909View attachment 544910View attachment 544911View attachment 544912View attachment 544913View attachment 544914View attachment 544915View attachment 544916

Thanks for sharing.

 

[scooter748driver]

Welcome from the Fort Sumter and the Fredericksburg forums. Nice looking gun, and I'm sure the memories it brings you are even more enjoyable than the gun itself.

 

[bobinwmass]

Your gun is not listed in the SRS database. The closest listed serial numbers on either side are 3183 and 3213, both issued to Co B 9th Michigan Cavalry. This does does not mean that yours also was issued to them, as the first Spencer rifle listed to Co B 9th Michigan Cavalry is serial number 2288. That's a range of almost a thousand guns, so most of them went elsewhere, we just don't know where.

 

[bayonet]

Sad a victim of a lot of Spencers, a long crack in the buttstock. Had one many years ago I got for $1000. Thanks to Ken Burns ACW special coming out I sold it for $2000. Not too shabby. Heard a Rev War documentary by him is coming out in November. Hope Rev War items sky rocket in $. Wife wants me to rid myself of many of them items.

 

[Dude Cogburn]

Thank you for checking the serial number. I had my hopes up that there might be a way to track it to a company, battalion or regiment but I had heard the records could be pretty difficult to trace. This information does seem to confirm that it was smack in the number range of rifles from the early days of Spencers being issued to the field. And how it ended up out on the Great Plains in the Dakotas is another mystery that will not be solved. I am speculating that it may have taken its fair share of buffalo in that country as well.

 

[LouG.]

In reference to a couple of the comments above, I'd be most interested in knowing the details of ANY Civil-War-period Spencer converted to handle the standard .50-70 cartridge, given the length of that cartridge. The postwar conversions of Spencer carbines to two-band infantry rifles were chambered for the .56-.50 rimfire, not the .50-70. (The true .50-70 Spencer infantry rifle (Patent #135,671), made for the U.S. small-arms trials of 1872-73, is a single-shot arm, and very rare.)

 

[johan_steele]

In reference to a couple of the comments above, I'd be most interested in knowing the details of ANY Civil-War-period Spencer converted to handle the standard .50-70 cartridge, given the length of that cartridge. The postwar conversions of Spencer carbines to two-band infantry rifles were chambered for the .56-.50 rimfire, not the .50-70. (The true .50-70 Spencer infantry rifle, made for the U.S. small-arms trials of 1872-73 (Patent #135,671), is a single-shot arm, and very rare.)

I've seen 3 in the last 25 odd years. Two were rifles and one a carbine all civilian mods of surplus arms. Two had vernier sights. In all the cases the owners were quite happy with them and they were still shootable. How exactly or when the mods were done I have no idea. There was a theory that there was a smith in St Louis altering them. But I have no idea if this was accurate.

I would wager the smith would start with a Sharps barrel and go from there.

 

[rustybore]

Greetings folks. I am trying to find some information on my Spencer M1865. Serial number is 7978. It does have the cut off, and appears to be in original condition with two markings on the stock. Year of manufacture would be of interest to me as well as any usage history that could be found. I'll get more photos up as soon as I can. Thanks in advance for help with this vintage firearm.

 

[LouG.]

Re the so-called ".50-70 Spencers," the standard .50-70 cartridge is simply too long to pass through that action. The length of the empty case itself is 1-3/4", and the loaded round is 2-1/4" overall. There should be a Spencer owner or two out there with access to a .50-70 round who can put this to the test and post the results.

Of course, it's presumably possible to cut down a .50-70 case to, say, 1-1/4" or so, and handload it to fit the action. Additionally, Spencers can be altered to centerfire without too much trouble, and years ago I handled a former carbine that had been gunsmith-converted to a .44-40 sporting rifle with heavy octagon barrel.

But again, the standard .50-70 cartridge is just too long to function in a Civil-War-period Spencer.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

yes, it was this limitation to a relatively short cartridge which was a weakness of the Spencer design. So there are no .50-70 Spencer repeaters.
If the user was loading single cartridges from the top, like the Remington rolling blocks, a longer cartridge could be used