Lee Did Lee Really Say This?

[cash]

Did Robert E. Lee really say that the greatest Federal general was "McClellan by all odds?"

Maybe, maybe not.

http://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/2014/08/23/did-lee-say-this/

What do you think?

 

[diane]

That's one of the troubles with Rob Lee's book - a lot of quotes by his father are not exactly supported. His last words, Strike the tent, for example. Rob wasn't there when his father died and was told this was said by another family member who heard it from someone who was present with his father... Sooo, cousin Cazenova (?!) overheard it from Gen Lee's conversation with his father. That makes it one source closer to the primary source than Lee's famous last words! I'd like to see Lee's body language if he did say it...it's worse than not having emoticons around here! This one is the one I think Lee might have used if he said that about McClellan:

 

[cash]

That's one of the troubles with Rob Lee's book - a lot of quotes by his father are not exactly supported. His last words, Strike the tent, for example. Rob wasn't there when his father died and was told this was said by another family member who heard it from someone who was present with his father... Sooo, cousin Cazenova (?!) overheard it from Gen Lee's conversation with his father. That makes it one source closer to the primary source than Lee's famous last words! I'd like to see Lee's body language if he did say it...it's worse than not having emoticons around here! This one is the one I think Lee might have used if he said that about McClellan:

What about the other parts of the account? Do they support the credibility of the claim?

 

[chellers]

I agree with diane. If, in fact, Lee made this statement I am most inclined to think he did so facetiously. And that really does not fit my image of the man. He seemed to be more of the said what he meant and meant what he said type.

 

[tmh10]

Lee, may have thought McClellen a worthy foe. He bested him for the most part but not at Antietam. So it is not a far streach that Lee respected Little Mac. Grant just beat Lee down overtime, so it was not the big glory battle we want. But to lee's credit, he spoke highly of Grant in the end.

 

[cash]

Are there any other things about the report of the incident that can help us to judge its credibility?

 

[tmh10]

Are there any other things about the report of the incident that can help us to judge its credibility?

Im not sure what else you need Cash. It is well known that Lee was content with his treatment by Grant at the end and it has been written that Lee would not hear a bad comment on Grant afterward. If you want me to go through the books, I can provide the sources, but Im sure you have known them as well as I. Let us not be petty in this matter.

 

[diane]

What about the other parts of the account? Do they support the credibility of the claim?

Well, that would bring into question Robert Jr's credibility and his judgment. Questioning that, by the way, isn't calling the man a liar - just questioning if what he believes to be true is true. And, that's always the trouble with accounts the author has from a second hand source he considers credible but which may not actually be. What supports this remark of Lee's? Is Robert Jr consistent in his accuracy with other information? Who was this second or third cousin of his who heard his dad talking to his older cousin? Did Lee tell anybody else McClellan was a good general? Was there an indication during the war he thought that? All sorts of backup question. However, sometimes you just have to decide as the flawed or potentially flawed information can't be supported adequately. Did Forrest shoot a mulatto man dead at first Murfreesboro? There's only a third hand account from one person who hated his guts and nothing else. Considering other verifiable information of Forrest's attitudes about blacks at that time and his actions when in combat mode, I would take it as a definite possibility.

 

[tmh10]

Well, that would bring into question Robert Jr's credibility and his judgment. Questioning that, by the way, isn't calling the man a liar - just questioning if what he believes to be true is true. And, that's always the trouble with accounts the author has from a second hand source he considers credible but which may not actually be. What supports this remark of Lee's? Is Robert Jr consistent in his accuracy with other information? Who was this second or third cousin of his who heard his dad talking to his older cousin? Did Lee tell anybody else McClellan was a good general? Was there an indication during the war he thought that? All sorts of backup question. However, sometimes you just have to decide as the flawed or potentially flawed information can't be supported adequately. Did Forrest shoot a mulatto man dead at first Murfreesboro? There's only a third hand account from one person who hated his guts and nothing else. Considering other verifiable information of Forrest's attitudes about blacks at that time and his actions when in combat mode, I would take it as a definite possibility.

There in lies the rub, Diane. We are stuck with here say information and left to figure fact from fiction. A no win situation in a debate to be sure.

 

[101combatvet]

I think Lee was correct about Mac. When Lee assessed Mac's ability it was without factoring in a meddling Lincoln.

 

[kevikens]

I have seen this statement in other contexts where Lee is quoted as saying something similar to this, including one where he is then asked why he thought Little Mac was his most respected foe. According to this account (No, I don't have the reference in front of me), Lee responded that he thought McClellan was the one foe he could never actually destroy. Given McClellan's handling of troops on the defensive he may have had something there.

 

[diane]

I have seen this statement in other contexts where Lee is quoted as saying something similar to this, including one where he is then asked why he thought Little Mac was his most respected foe. According to this account (No, I don't have the reference in front of me), Lee responded that he thought McClellan was the one foe he could never actually destroy. Given McClellan's handling of troops on the defensive he may have had something there.

There was a recent thread here comparing Joe Johnston and George McClellan - kind of brothers from another mother! They both wanted a political solution. Sherman was frustrated by waltzing all over the Deep South with his unwanted dance partner but never getting to actually trip him! And, Lee knew he could beat McClellan if he could ever get ahold of the slippery little devil... It may not have been a real Fabian defense but it was treading water until the politics answered - and saving lives while at it.

My problem is I've never seen anything where Lee mentioned McClellan in a real opinion. And, going along with the OP, we might also question if Lee ever told Cassius Lee - who is the same fellow said to have heard the Little Mac remark - that Grant was one of history's great generals. Maybe Lee meant what he said in his farewell address to his men - dadburn it, y'all would have won if that train had got to Amelia Courthouse!

 

[kevikens]

There is a post war letter of Lee's in existence where he writes "I have always entertained a high opinion of his capacity and have no reason to think that he omitted to do anything in his power". But also that other quote attributed to Lee may be a paraphrase and misattributed to Lee. John Mosby in an 1867 newspaper interview said something very similar when he was asked, "Whom do you consider the ablest general on the Federal side". His response was, McClellan by all odds. I think he is the only man on the Federal side who could have organized the army as it was...". The similarities between the Mosby interview and the one attributed to Lee may be similar because both shared the same view or the Mosby interview became confused and conflated with something said by Lee on a different occasion. I think it safe to say that Lee respected McClellan and leave it at that.

 

[godofredus]

For myself, I would put it in context of some of the other quotes. My prime example is this :

'Because,' he replied, 'my men had nothing to eat,' and pointing to Fort Wade, in the rear of our home, he said, 'I could not tell my men to take that fort when they had had nothing to eat for three days. I went to Maryland to feed my army.'

"This led to a statement of the mismanagement of the Confederate Commissary Department, of which he gave numerous instances, and mentioned his embarrassments in consequence. "

Now IMHO no one on this board would disagree with that quote. So if all agree that quote is probably true, maybe the context shows the opinion on Little Mac is also true....

 

[johan_steele]

I think it's a load of rubbish. Lee knew who beat him, while Lee checked Grant he never sent him running and it was Grant that rolled Lee up accepting his surrender in the end. Lee was no fool.

 

[101combatvet]

I think the problem with most of the so called "historians" that give McClellan a bad rating do it for one reason only. I think his Peninsula Campaign was just short of brilliance, had he pulled it off he'd be on a fifty dollar bill.

 

[JeffBrooks]

John Mosby in an 1867 newspaper interview said something very similar when he was asked, "Whom do you consider the ablest general on the Federal side". His response was, McClellan by all odds. I think he is the only man on the Federal side who could have organized the army as it was...".

If that's accurate, then Lee could well have been speaking out of respect for McClellan's talent for logistics and organization, which even his detractors don't deny. Armchair amateur historians like ourselves think in terms of battles, but professional soldiers like Lee and McClellan think in terms of logistics.

 

[101combatvet]

If that's accurate, then Lee could well have been speaking out of respect for McClellan's talent for logistics and organization, which even his detractors don't deny. Armchair amateur historians like ourselves think in terms of battles, but professional soldiers like Lee and McClellan think in terms of logistics.

True, he did built that (Army).

 

[Mark F. Jenkins]

I'm not really sure why this is a big issue. If Lee did name Little Mac as his ablest adversary, that is an interesting insight into Lee's thought processes; it doesn't make McClellan one bit more able or effective.

 

[cash]

Im not sure what else you need Cash. It is well known that Lee was content with his treatment by Grant at the end and it has been written that Lee would not hear a bad comment on Grant afterward. If you want me to go through the books, I can provide the sources, but Im sure you have known them as well as I. Let us not be petty in this matter.

I'm talking about other details in the account.

"he told of the delay of Jackson in getting on McClellan's flank, causing the fight at Mechanicsville, which fight he said was unexpected, but was necessary to prevent McClellan from entering Richmond, from the front of which most of the troops had been moved."

Was the "fight at Mechanicsville" unexpected by Lee?

He thought that if Jackson had been at Gettysburg the would have gained a victory, 'for' said he, 'Jackson would have held the heights which Ewell took on the first day.'

Did Ewell take "heights" on the first day?

"He was asked why he did not come to Washington after second Manassas.
" 'Because,' he replied, 'my men had nothing to eat,' and pointing to Fort Wade, in the rear of our home, he said, 'I could not tell my men to take that fort when they had had nothing to eat for three days. I went to Maryland to feed my army.' "

Did his men have nothing to eat for three days at Second Manassas? Did he go into Maryland solely to feed his army?