Ammo Ammo Replacement?

[Yankeedave]

One musket tool and cone pick was issued for every musket, the spring vice was issued to the sargents.

We cut down, used the tools like mess mates used the coffee pot. One sergeant carried a ramrod. Invariably an Enfield.

 

[Dan Kohli]

This sounds like the straight line to a joke… maybe it is me getting ahead of being snowed in.

Definitely, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[Dan Kohli]

We cut down, used the tools like mess mates used the coffee pot. One sergeant carried a ramrod. Invariably an Enfield.

During reenactments?

 

[Yankeedave]

During reenactments?

Yes

 

[Dan Kohli]

Yes

That's understandable.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Remember that fierce firefights didn't last hours of continuous shooting. For the most part, unless you were defending, where you had a ready supply of ammo at your rear, you were moving back and forth across the field. The thick of the actual shooting may not have lasted longer than 30 minutes before you either took the position or broke to the rear. The standard supply carried by a soldier was enough for a single firefight lasting 30 minutes or less. Chamberlin withstood three charges with rapid firing before he was out of ammunition on Little Round Top. You have to figure the amount of time both sides were engaged with each other and shooting back and forth at a rapid rate probably totaled less than 45 minutes.

Interesting point. My special interest is Stones River. Chicago Board of Trade Battery almost 1,500 rounds & Parson's Regular Battery almost 2,000 rounds on December 31st. No exact tally for the supporting infantry's expenditure. However, the fighting continued from predawn to after dark. Fighting was not of the 15-30 minute skirmish variety. The passage of lines under fire to replenish was a regular thing.

 

[Dan Kohli]

As far as battlefield issuances of ammunition is concerned, I checked the 1861 U.S. Army Regulations, and it does not mention anything about issuing stuff during battles.

 

[Rhea Cole]

WE HAVE BEEN ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION.

Instead of " passing out ammunition " it is the

THE PASSAGE OF LINES UNDER FIRE

That is the relevant line of inquiry.


The passage of lines under fire has been an essential element of maintaining initiative & tempo for centuries.

Roman cohorts deployed with the passage of lines as an integral element. The rearmost lines consisted of the most experienced & steady fighters. In both advance & defense, the best men could move to where they could have the greatest impact.

Hand to hand combat is physically exhausting. It was the legionary doctrine of the passage of lines bringing fresh men to the front that made it possible for Romans to overcome much larger opponents.

Romans attacked in a triangular formation. The point made first contact. Each successive line relieved the one in front & secured the flanks of the formation. At the point of attack, defenders were faced with line after line of fresh fighters.

It isn't hard to imagine the effect of several simultaneous triangular attacks on an opponent's line of defense.

In the context of the Civil War, in order to maintain initiative during a battle a passage of lines under fire was essential.

The of passage of lines under fire in the fight for the Round Forest on December 31, 1862 during the Battle of Stones River is the example I am most familiar with.

The Round Forrest copse of trees was the key to the 14th Army Corps position. It was on the right flank of Bragg's line that reached three miles to the west from there. The attackers were in General Polk's corps.

The famous flank attack was taking place miles away on the other side of the cedar break on the western edge of this map.

An important feature of the battle space is the sunken Nashville & Chattanooga RR road bed. It was a ready made trench line.

As at Shiloh, Bragg's left under Hardee was expending itself fighting on ground with no tactical significance. It was physically impossible to shift the focus of the attack onto critical Round Forest.

What isn't obvious is that the RR cut was a natural rally point. The lane to the rear led directly into the ammunition reserve. It was also an interior line of communication.

Under the lash of Bragg's orders, General Polk mounted attack after attack against Hazen's Brigade over a two hour period of time.

There is no way to exaggerate the intensity of the fighting in this confined battle space. The regiments in the front line exhausted both ammunition supplies & men. Under fire they were replaced by regiments by a passage of the line under fire from the relative safety of the RR cut.

The men relieved from the first line lay down while ammunition & water was distributed. They were not alone.

The lines of attackers drove a wave rabbits before them. The terrified creatures bounded into the RR cut & snuggled for cover under the men.

Having rehydrated, washed out the fouling & refilled their cartridge boxes, the regiment was ready to return to the first line in a passage of the line under fire.

Because the defenders were able to maintain a constant effective fire superiority over the attackers with passages of lines, the attackers suffered devastating casualties.

Unlike the Romans, General Polk failed to amass a striking force that could have overwhelmed Hazen's Brigade.

Instead of a passage of lines bringing forward fresh regiments to the firing line, Polk's men literally clamored over acres of bodies crowding the ground. It was possible to walk 1/2 a mile without touching the ground.

In contrast, Hazen's regiments had suffered remarkably light casualties. Had they not displayed tactical competence with their successful passage of lines under fire, quite another narrative of the Battle of Stones River would have been written.

Note: I found a very educational source on the topic of passage of lines.

This paper cites historic sources & modern conflicts to discuss the passage of lines under fire. Read more here.

Link:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA289171.pdf

 

[Yankeedave]

In the defense of Culp's Hill at Gettysburg, the Union regiments were rotated to the rear so as to clean weapons and a refill, then back the front. The veterans said they took the most losses moving between these two positions.

 

[bayonet]

Who's to say their's wasn't just as dirty? Although that was a common practice if a guy was having issues with his weapon. I'd think it wasn't just common to CW soldiers, a jammed M16 would put you in a similar pickle.

What you never did reenactments where the first shot fired some guy or 2 would drop dead right away? They hated cleaning their muskets. Grab theirs . I was notorious for looting the dead's cartridge boxes. Why use mine, I'll just use theirs. After a few events they would fall on top of the cartridge box if I was there. Didn't stop me I just roll them over. If they complained I'd just say "Keep quiet your dead"! One event among a pile of dead mine fouled so some joker reach's up and says fire mine it's loaded. The clown had 3 or more rounds jammed down there and it made a massive report. Everyone stopped to lookluck it didn't blow up on me!

 

[captaindrew]

What you never did reenactments where the first shot fired some guy or 2 would drop dead right away? They hated cleaning their muskets. Grab theirs . I was notorious for looting the dead's cartridge boxes. Why use mine, I'll just use theirs. After a few events they would fall on top of the cartridge box if I was there. Didn't stop me I just roll them over. If they complained I'd just say "Keep quiet your dead"! One event among a pile of dead mine fouled so some joker reach's up and says fire mine it's loaded. The clown had 3 or more rounds jammed down there and it made a massive report. Everyone stopped to lookluck it didn't blow up on me!

So you're one of those guys Yes, we have a guy or two that won't fire a shot if they can help it and yes there's a guy who will loot his own guys I think every company has at least one of each

 

[Mississippian1861]

I am going off of memory so I may be a little off, but at the time of Chickamauga, the Army of Tennessee wanted to have roughly 200 rounds of musket ammunition per infantryman. They had about 160-170 at the time of the battle, but the average man fired about 35 rounds per man during the battle.

 

[rpkennedy]

In the defense of Culp's Hill at Gettysburg, the Union regiments were rotated to the rear so as to clean weapons and a refill, then back the front. The veterans said they took the most losses moving between these two positions.

Not only were they given time to clean their weapons, food, water, and coffee were provided to them before they went back into the breastworks.

Ryan

 

[Rhea Cole]

Not only were they given time to clean their weapons, food, water, and coffee was provided to them before they went back into the breastworks.

Ryan

What you have described is what a force multiplier a properly managed passage of lines under fire can be. Trading out exhausted men with little ammunition for men restored by a rest break, hydrated, fed & with ammunition for their cleaned weapons needs no explanation.

My impression, it is just that, is that kind of careful management was far more likely with Union commanders than CSA officers. I have heard it argued that an indifference to the care of their soldiers was a hold over from slaveholding culture. The gross brutality toward subordinates dealt out by N.B. Forrest, for example, was how a slave trader behaved, for example. As I say, the careful staff work described by example on Culp's Hill is certainly not typical of the canteen of whisky & a spoon full of sugar typical of Army of Tennessee actions at Stones River & Lookout Mountain.

 

[rpkennedy]

What you have described is what a force multiplier a properly managed passage of lines under fire can be. Trading out exhausted men with little ammunition for men restored by a rest break, hydrated, fed & with ammunition for their cleaned weapons needs no explanation.

My impression, it is just that, is that kind of careful management was far more likely with Union commanders than CSA officers. I have heard it argued that an indifference to the care of their soldiers was a hold over from slaveholding culture. The gross brutality toward subordinates dealt out by N.B. Forrest, for example, was how a slave trader behaved, for example. As I say, the careful staff work described by example on Culp's Hill is certainly not typical of the canteen of whisky & a spoon full of sugar typical of Army of Tennessee actions at Stones River & Lookout Mountain.

I think that Union staff work was exponentially better than what the Confederate staff was capable of. Part of it was the more professional style as well as the larger size which allowed it to be so much more effecient. For example, by the time of Gettysburg, there were staff officers at the army level who had been in their jobs for a year and a half, having joined up when McClellan organized the Army of the Potomac. And it wasn't much different at the corps level. Even with the high turnover at those levels of command, the staff officers remained and kept getting better at their jobs.

The differences in the quality of staff work between the Army of the Potomac and Army of Northern Virginia is shocking. There were times when Lee himself was spending time sorting out corps train issues while staff officers in the AotP were handling that for their commander.

Ryan

 

[bayonet]

So you're one of those guys Yes, we have a guy or two that won't fire a shot if they can help it and yes there's a guy who will loot his own guys I think every company has at least one of each

Playing Union I came across a dead Reb friend. Yup I opened up his haversack and dumped it all over the ground to see if there was anything I could loot. Sadly no, starving Rebs! Another dead Reb had farby boots on. With permission I fell out of ranks to rip his boots off and see if they fit me since he had better foot wear than me. Sadly no so I flung them in different directions. Many laughs on that

 

[Trooper "D"]

Sorry for the poor quality. Search Engine isn't what it used to be.
Looked but couldn't find the sketch of two soldiers carry a box of ammo slung from two muskets.

It wasn't the quality. Im using my phone screen so I have to enlarge the pics by area.

 

[Yankeedave]

It wasn't the quality. Im using my phone screen so I have to enlarge the pics by area.

I meant my alamy (?) covered photo

 

[Oceanweather]

"Passing of the Line" is an eye opener for me and really helps me understanding better how sustained firefights were handled.

Was the Passing of the Line usually done at the battalion, regiment, or brigade level?

Ryan

 

[Rhea Cole]

"Passing of the Line" is an eye opener for me and really helps me understanding better how sustained firefights were handled.

Was the Passing of the Line usually done at the battalion, regiment, or brigade level?

Ryan

Have you read the paper about passage of lines and under fire in my post up thread?