Lee Did Lee Really Say This?

Well, that would bring into question Robert Jr's credibility and his judgment. Questioning that, by the way, isn't calling the man a liar - just questioning if what he believes to be true is true. And, that's always the trouble with accounts the author has from a second hand source he considers credible but which may not actually be. What supports this remark of Lee's? Is Robert Jr consistent in his accuracy with other information? Who was this second or third cousin of his who heard his dad talking to his older cousin? Did Lee tell anybody else McClellan was a good general? Was there an indication during the war he thought that? All sorts of backup question. However, sometimes you just have to decide as the flawed or potentially flawed information can't be supported adequately. Did Forrest shoot a mulatto man dead at first Murfreesboro? There's only a third hand account from one person who hated his guts and nothing else. Considering other verifiable information of Forrest's attitudes about blacks at that time and his actions when in combat mode, I would take it as a definite possibility.

The book was published in 1904, 34 years after Lee's death. Lee died only 5 years after the war, and this purported account is definitely postwar, so it could only have taken place at some point within a five-year period, meaning it was anywhere from 34 to 39 years old. How reliable is his cousin's recollection?
 
I have seen this statement in other contexts where Lee is quoted as saying something similar to this, including one where he is then asked why he thought Little Mac was his most respected foe. According to this account (No, I don't have the reference in front of me), Lee responded that he thought McClellan was the one foe he could never actually destroy. Given McClellan's handling of troops on the defensive he may have had something there.

I'd like to see that reference if you can find it.
 
For myself, I would put it in context of some of the other quotes. My prime example is this :

'Because,' he replied, 'my men had nothing to eat,' and pointing to Fort Wade, in the rear of our home, he said, 'I could not tell my men to take that fort when they had had nothing to eat for three days. I went to Maryland to feed my army.'

"This led to a statement of the mismanagement of the Confederate Commissary Department, of which he gave numerous instances, and mentioned his embarrassments in consequence. "

Now IMHO no one on this board would disagree with that quote. So if all agree that quote is probably true, maybe the context shows the opinion on Little Mac is also true....

Did the ANV not have anything to eat for 3 days? Is that why he went into Maryland?

That analysis is what I'm getting at.
 
I'm not really sure why this is a big issue. If Lee did name Little Mac as his ablest adversary, that is an interesting insight into Lee's thought processes; it doesn't make McClellan one bit more able or effective.

It's not the most gargantuan issue of the war, but this is a quote that is used over and over.
 
Regarding his reasons for going into Maryland, here's what Lee said at the time:

http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/c...o=waro0028;didno=waro0028;view=image;seq=0592


Lee Md 1.jpg



Lee Md 2.jpg


Does this jive with what was reported in Rob's book?
 
That sounds like Lee felt that Maryland should be invaded - er, liberated - while the iron was hot, and staying put was not a viable option despite the issues in the way of a successful campaign forward.

But no mention that Maryland equals grub, only that investing Washington is infeasible because of the lack of the necessary materials (both munitions and food).
 
There is a post war letter of Lee's in existence where he writes "I have always entertained a high opinion of his capacity and have no reason to think that he omitted to do anything in his power". But also that other quote attributed to Lee may be a paraphrase and misattributed to Lee. John Mosby in an 1867 newspaper interview said something very similar when he was asked, "Whom do you consider the ablest general on the Federal side". His response was, McClellan by all odds. I think he is the only man on the Federal side who could have organized the army as it was...". The similarities between the Mosby interview and the one attributed to Lee may be similar because both shared the same view or the Mosby interview became confused and conflated with something said by Lee on a different occasion. I think it safe to say that Lee respected McClellan and leave it at that.

Apparently Mosby did say this.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zK...onepage&q=Mosby McClellan by all odds&f=false
 
I found this thread to be most interesting as the quote by RE Lee about McLellan has baffled me for years.

I read the quote in "Robert E. Lee Recollections and Letters" by his son, Captain Robert E. Lee first published in 1904.
Reference Pages 415-416, Captain Lee recalls the words of Casanova Lee (son of Cassius Lee, RE Lee's cousin) from a visit with RE Lee several weeks prior to RE Lee's death on October 12, 1871. Thus, it is a recollection of a recollection of Casanova Lee about his conversation with RE Lee.

I'll quote from the book, p. 416: "I asked him which of the Federal generals he considered the greatest, and he answered most emphatically 'McClellan by all odds.'

The mystery that will remain mystery forever, or until/unless someone comes up with other evidence about the meeting in which Casanova Lee recounts RE Lee's words.

Specifically, I would like to know in what context did RE Lee opine about McClellan? "Little Mac" certainly showed greatness in organizing, training, equipping, and inspiring an army. Yet, he failed to commit his army in battle for (my opinion) fear of casualties, which might generate bad feelings among a future constituency in his and other states. And so, Casanova Lee may have omitted an addition comment from RE Lee that would have qualified his statement.

Another possibility (offered by someone in this thread) is that RE Lee might have expressed some measure of humor or sarcasm when opining about McClellan. In RE Lee's earlier letters to family and friends, he hints at occasional sarcasm, but not much humor per se.

My conclusion is that there is something missing contextually from the quote, and it is probably sarcasm. (I can see RE Lee, when saying this about McClellan, widening his eyes, and raising his eyebrows just enough to be sarcastic).
 
My conclusion is that there is something missing contextually from the quote, and it is probably sarcasm. (I can see RE Lee, when saying this about McClellan, widening his eyes, and raising his eyebrows just enough to be sarcastic).

Nope, as Lee's daughter said of McClellan; "General McClellan was the only general father dreaded". In his life he wrote:
"As regards General McClellan, I have always entertained a high opinion of his capacity, and have no reason to think he omitted anything that was in his power" - R.E Lee to B.H. Wright

Lee apparently sincerely held an extremely high opinion of McClellan's generalship.
 
I found this thread to be most interesting as the quote by RE Lee about McLellan has baffled me for years.

I read the quote in "Robert E. Lee Recollections and Letters" by his son, Captain Robert E. Lee first published in 1904.
Reference Pages 415-416, Captain Lee recalls the words of Casanova Lee (son of Cassius Lee, RE Lee's cousin) from a visit with RE Lee several weeks prior to RE Lee's death on October 12, 1871. Thus, it is a recollection of a recollection of Casanova Lee about his conversation with RE Lee.

I'll quote from the book, p. 416: "I asked him which of the Federal generals he considered the greatest, and he answered most emphatically 'McClellan by all odds.'

The mystery that will remain mystery forever, or until/unless someone comes up with other evidence about the meeting in which Casanova Lee recounts RE Lee's words.

Specifically, I would like to know in what context did RE Lee opine about McClellan? "Little Mac" certainly showed greatness in organizing, training, equipping, and inspiring an army. Yet, he failed to commit his army in battle for (my opinion) fear of casualties, which might generate bad feelings among a future constituency in his and other states. And so, Casanova Lee may have omitted an addition comment from RE Lee that would have qualified his statement.

Another possibility (offered by someone in this thread) is that RE Lee might have expressed some measure of humor or sarcasm when opining about McClellan. In RE Lee's earlier letters to family and friends, he hints at occasional sarcasm, but not much humor per se.

My conclusion is that there is something missing contextually from the quote, and it is probably sarcasm. (I can see RE Lee, when saying this about McClellan, widening his eyes, and raising his eyebrows just enough to be sarcastic).
The General was chatting with his cousin, Cassius Lee--with Cassius' son (Cazenove) also being present. Cassius Lee was a financier and handled the General's financial matters--he was highly unlikely to understand (or appreciate) military-oriented sarcasm. Cazenove repeated the conversation re McClellan to the General's son. It's hard to tell but it looks to me that Cazenove Lee actually participated in the conversation--but, in any case, he was a primary source to Robert E. Lee Jr. (this was no third hand repetition).
 
Specifically, I would like to know in what context did RE Lee opine about McClellan? "Little Mac" certainly showed greatness in organizing, training, equipping, and inspiring an army. Yet, he failed to commit his army in battle for (my opinion) fear of casualties, which might generate bad feelings among a future constituency in his and other states. And so, Casanova Lee may have omitted an addition comment from RE Lee that would have qualified his statement.
It might be worth thinking about the campaigns in which McClellan and Lee faced off against one another.

The first is the Seven Days. This is an environment when McClellan is in the process of breaking into Richmond - day one of the Seven Days is actually McClellan advancing his lines at Oak Grove, preparatory to establishing his siege guns and blasting through the Richmond forts.
The meat of the Seven Days is an attack where Lee got to concentrate a massive force in front of Richmond - the largest Confederate army that ever fought on the field - and hit McClellan in a hanging flank, with the expectation of being able to destroy McClellan's army or at least force it into a position where it was no longer threatening Richmond.
Over the course of the Seven Days, McClellan pulls his army back from having his supply line blown away, avoids the entrapment of his army, and establishes supply on the James River. Lee has removed McClellan from the capital, but he hoped for far more and McClellan is still close enough to threaten Richmond (and Lee acts accordingly) - it's not until McClellan is withdrawn from the Peninsula entirely that Lee feels free to operate, and by the time he was asked the question about "which general" he'd have known that the withdrawal was not of McClellan's doing.

The second is the Maryland Campaign. This is an environment where at the start of September Lee has just conducted one of his masterpiece campaigns, smashing Pope's army and practically routing it back to Washington.
Lee's read his Napoleon - he knows that if you smash an army that heavily then even with an intact cadre to base it on it's going to take some time before it's fit for the field again.
Then comes South Mountain, a strategic thunderbolt by the Army of the Potomac (which has been rebuilt at startling speed) which catches Lee off guard and nearly sees the surrender of a quarter of his army. He's telling McLaws to get his men over the Maryland Heights by any means necessary and ordering Jackson to call off the siege of Harpers Ferry, and it's only the precipitate surrender of HF that lets him rescue ten of his forty infantry brigades; meanwhile Lee has to rush to haul his army back together and on the 17th is the bloodiest day of fighting in American history, with McClellan launching almost all the attacks.

The third is the Loudoun Valley campaign. To go into full detail on this one would take too long, but the fundamental basis of it is that Lee realizes about the start of the second week of November (November 8-10) that McClellan has thoroughly humbugged him. Lee is preparing to pull back to Gordonsville and repeatedly ordering Jackson to join him, and even a week later when Burnside starts moving Lee pulls back clear to the North Anna (to give time for Jackson to arrive) before finally realizing that Burnside isn't over the river at Fredericksburg and he advances to contain the Army of the Potomac.


So Lee and McClellan have campaigned against one another three times. The first sees McClellan rescue his army from the largest army anyone in the Confederacy ever deployed, and Lee ends it with the knowledge that - while he did force McClellan back - he didn't force McClellan back very far, and McClellan is still able to threaten Richmond.
The second sees McClellan outmanoeuvre Lee, which wasn't exactly a common occurrence, and deliver serious damage to his army. He didn't "seal the deal", but then again nobody did until Lee's army was a husk of its former self; Lee has to retreat back into Virginia.
The third sees McClellan outmanoeuvre Lee again, and the danger posed by the campaign is only arrested by McClellan's firing. Even then when Burnside takes over and starts moving a week later the Army of the Potomac's position (placed there by McClellan) is threatening enough that Lee thinks he has to give up the line of the Rappahanock.

Compare this with the other generals Lee faced - three of them (Burnside, Hooker, Meade) were generals where Lee was able to successfully defend the line of the Rappahanock, a fourth (Grant) was someone who was able to keep outflanking Lee's army but didn't actually manage to outmanoeuvre him and catch him at a disadvantage, and the final one on the list (Pope) got routed.

Finally, consider the issue of sieges. Lee was at Richmond while McClellan was on the Peninsula, and what he saw was that McClellan faced five strongly defensible lines on the route from Fort Monroe. McClellan outflanked one (the Big Bethel line), rendered the second (Yorktown) untenable by regular approaches, outflanked the third (Williamsburg), crossed the fourth (the Chickahominy) and after some awful rain was ready to overcome the fifth (Richmond Defences) about a hundred days after he started the campaign. This is why Lee said that McClellan would "make it a battle of posts" to take Richmond, moving up his guns from strong position to strong position slowly but inexorably.

The other general who Lee faced in a siege situation was Grant, and Grant never really tried regular approaches in the first place.


So yes, I think that Lee would have reason to say that McClellan was the best general he faced, because:

- McClellan had the ability to outmanoeuvre Lee, and did this more than once even if Lee could recover from the bad situations.
- McClellan could recover from a bad situation as well, and recognize when he should fall back rather than staying to fight and getting destroyed.
- McClellan did launch heavy attacks against Lee (Antietam should be proof enough of that) and Lee suffered from them.
- McClellan had skills (regular approaches) that other Union commanders did not prove to have.
- McClellan's army was smaller relative to Lee's army than other Union commanders, particularly Grant; Lee could say Grant won through superior numbers, but the same explanation doesn't wash nearly so well with McClellan's army.

That doesn't mean that given the historical events he had to have said that McClellan was the best. I could understand if Lee's answer had actually been Meade, or Grant, for example. But what it means is that Lee's statement of "McClellan" is not unbelievable, and we shouldn't reject it.

(It's sort of similar to why the Duke of Wellington claimed Assaye as the battle he was the proudest of; we could understand if he'd said Salamanca, or Waterloo, or Vitoria, but Assaye is not unbelievable.)
 
You present a very well thought out and rounded explanation to why RE Lee would think McClellan was the most able Union commander. I will add it to my list of plausible reasons, and thank you very much for the time and effort to lay it out.

Tom
 
Nope, as Lee's daughter said of McClellan; "General McClellan was the only general father dreaded". In his life he wrote:
"As regards General McClellan, I have always entertained a high opinion of his capacity, and have no reason to think he omitted anything that was in his power" - R.E Lee to B.H. Wright

Lee apparently sincerely held an extremely high opinion of McClellan's generalship.

Yes, it's beginning to look as though RE Lee was sincere in his opinion of McClellan. Perhaps if McClellan was a bit more aggressive in committing his troops at critical points in his campaigns, he might have turned the tables on Lee, defeating Lee outright. Thank you for your response.
 
Yes, it's beginning to look as though RE Lee was sincere in his opinion of McClellan. Perhaps if McClellan was a bit more aggressive in committing his troops at critical points in his campaigns, he might have turned the tables on Lee, defeating Lee outright. Thank you for your response.
I'm actually not so sure of that, because (even with hindsight, let alone with the fog of war) the usually cited critical points don't really seem like it.

Let's look at what Lee would have known about the usually cited points.

1) Reaching Yorktown.
Lee wasn't there and wouldn't have known very much about this, though it's possible he was aware that the Yorktown line was more strongly manned than Magruder's claims (as he was the one organizing who got sent to it.)
2) June at Richmond.
Lee knew all about how strongly defended Richmond was; there was a belt of fortifications manned by 40,000 men and it was raining for most of the month.
3) First part of the Seven Days.
Lee didn't move any of the garrison out of the Richmond fort belt for his flanking attack. I actually think he was praying for McClellan to commit his troops to fight around Richmond (and take heavy casualties) instead of pulling back, as if McClellan had stayed Lee would have bagged the whole army; either way Lee knows he left a lot of troops in Richmond to defend it.
4) Malvern Hill.
Here it's possible Lee might have thought McClellan should have counterattacked, though probably not; many of McClellan's men were out of ammunition and the attacks ended at sundown. If McClellan had stayed to fight the next day then Lee would have bagged the whole Army of the Potomac on Malvern Hill.
5) Antietam.
Lee was actually considering a counterattack of his own late on the 17th; this indicates he didn't think his position was obviously too weak. He may however have thought that McClellan had more uncommitted troops than was in fact the case, but he was still thinking of turning movements back north of the Potomac until some time on or after the 20th (so his army wasn't blatantly obviously mauled too badly to continue).
 
Based on Lee's assessment of McClellan, I believe this refers to McClellan's ability to train and organize his men. McClellan drilled and trained his men in military tactics more than any other general in the Union. McClellan taught them discipline, confidence and provided them with the supplies to be successful. And Lee being a disciplinarian, recognized this quality McClellan posssesed although McClellan was far from successful during his tenure. Lee was most likely talking about the overall picture that if McClellan, with his well trained army, had been more aggressive tactically he could be a force to he reckoned with.
 
Based on Lee's assessment of McClellan, I believe this refers to McClellan's ability to train and organize his men. McClellan drilled and trained his men in military tactics more than any other general in the Union. McClellan taught them discipline, confidence and provided them with the supplies to be successful. And Lee being a disciplinarian, recognized this quality McClellan posssesed although McClellan was far from successful during his tenure. Lee was most likely talking about the overall picture that if McClellan, with his well trained army, had been more aggressive tactically he could be a force to he reckoned with.
See above; McClellan is actually quite aggressive! He caught Lee out twice in manoeuvre campaigns in the space of about two months.
 
See above; McClellan is actually quite aggressive! He caught Lee out twice in manoeuvre campaigns in the space of about two months.
Yes, he had victories. But overall... throughout his tenure he was and is not known as an aggressive general. Grant was aggressive. McClellan did not possess that type of aggressiveness.
 
Yes, he had victories. But overall... throughout his tenure he was and is not known as an aggressive general. Grant was aggressive. McClellan did not possess that type of aggressiveness.
This is the thing, I'm not actually sure that that is justified. I know he's not known as an aggressive general, but Lee had first-hand experience with him and he saw the results of Antietam (which were very heavy blows) - as well as getting outmanoeuvred twice, the second time in the Loudoun Valley campaign.

I don't think you can rely on the idea that Lee must have thought conventional wisdom was correct, because Lee didn't have to rely on conventional wisdom.

As for McClellan not possessing the type of aggressiveness Grant had, I'd agree, but the type of aggressiveness Grant had that McClellan did not pretty much resolves down to "willing to charge his men into prepared enemy defences" (at Vicksburg, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, Petersburg). McClellan didn't do that, but because he didn't do that and instead sought to overcome prepared defences by other means I could reasonably see why Lee would think McClellan the more dangerous.
 
Yes, he had victories. But overall... throughout his tenure he was and is not known as an aggressive general. Grant was aggressive. McClellan did not possess that type of aggressiveness.

I am not convinced that Grant is any more aggressive, bar a six week period in 1864. All Grant's wins were hesitant. I have pointed out in the past that if you project the Vicksburg timeline on the lower Peninsula then Grant still wouldn't be past Yorktown in September...
 
I agree with diane. If, in fact, Lee made this statement I am most inclined to think he did so facetiously. And that really does not fit my image of the man. He seemed to be more of the said what he meant and meant what he said type.
How would one research this to determine the validity of this answer ? To whom did he make the statement?Was it in a question where he was given a list of generals which he had fought? When did he make the statement ,mental condition {he had suffered stokes},was he in any sought of mental duress {,aging process may have clearly affected his though processes} were there witness to testify or was this an interview by reported.and were there witnesses to this interview.Was this in a speech and is the speech in a achieves.?
 

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