William S. Rosecrans

[David Moore]

Thank you all for your replies to my question. You all are the best!

Rosecrans is an important yet controversial figure in the War. Controversial ironically from a Union point of view. Albert Castel - a leading historian of the Western theater- said that a biographer of Rosecrans would need to be courageous. His word and his italics. The problem is his adversarial relationship with Grant. One criticizes Grant today at one's own peril. No problem; history should be critical but documented.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Rosecrans' army didn't "take" Chattanooga until after Chickamauga. The case can be- and was- made that Chickamauga was the battle for permanent possession of Chattanooga. Longstreet was not sent south to participate in a siege. There was at some point going to be a battle for Chattanooga. Bragg was reenforced; Rosecrans wasn't. I cover all this in detail in my book. I recommend reading it (naturally)

Chattanooga was "taken" and occupied by federal forces on September 9th, 1863. That was 10 days before the Battle of Chickamauga.

Unfortunately, rather than concentrating his forces at Chattanooga, Rosecrans chose to keep his forces divided and moving east and south in pursuit of the supposedly fleeing confederates.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Captain Charles Eastman of the CSA Signal Service commanded the Lookout Mountain Station: From what is now Point Park, Eastman's signalists passed messages to & from Army HQ Station at the small White House atop Missionary Ridge. We have a clear idea of what the messages were from "contraband's."

CSA code wheel.

That was Signal Corps slang for intercepted & decoded messages. Rosecrans, Thomas & Grant read Bragg's mail at the same time he did. A constant flow of deserters like one of Forest's officers contributed a crazy quilt of intel. The intel log still exists. The oft repeated story of Bragg sending deserters to feed Rosecrans false data is, according to historian Lee White, a folk tale.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

I'm a little puzzled by the term "most talented strategist". I kind of doubt a really good strategist would have imagined the "gap" at Chickamauga.

That gap wasn't a strategic issue. It wasn't even really a tactical issue. It was a communication and confusion issue.

Arguably, though I wouldn't argue it. His strategy after his capture of Chattanooga dangerously divided his army and resulted in the only major defeat of a Midwestern army.

Dangerously divided his army the same way he had done so successfully twice before.

Not terribly differently from the way Lee divided his army to invade Pennsylvania.

Unfortunately, rather than concentrating his forces at Chattanooga, Rosecrans chose to keep his forces divided and moving east and south in pursuit of the supposedly fleeing confederates.

Rosecrans is criticized for not starting Tullahoma sooner and not following up on Tullahoma sooner...

...and also criticized for aggressively continuing to pursue Bragg's reeling army rather than consolidating his gains after capturing Chattanooga.

 

[jackt62]

That gap wasn't a strategic issue. It wasn't even really a tactical issue. It was a communication and confusion issue.

Dangerously divided his army the same way he had done so successfully twice before.

Not terribly differently from the way Lee divided his army to invade Pennsylvania.

Funny how Lee gets a pass on his communication and confusion issues and his habit of subdividing his army in Pennsylvania (and on many other occasions), yet Rosecrans gets the opposite treatment when committed by himself.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Rosecrans is criticized for not starting Tullahoma sooner and not following up on Tullahoma sooner...

...and also criticized for aggressively continuing to pursue Bragg's reeling army rather than consolidating his gains after capturing Chattanooga.

True. My opinion, which is admittedly negative towards Rosecrans, is that he had a poor sense of when to be aggressive and when to be prudent.

Just before Corinth, Rosecrans suggested to Grant that he should leave his works and push the confederates "to the wall." That would have been risky.

But, right after the battle, when he knew reinforcements were closing in to trap the confederates, he took the rest of the day off and waited until the next day to participate in that trap.

And then(!), Rosecrans was raring to pursue the confederates across Mississippi with no plan or supplies or support or idea of what enemy forces he might be facing.

My impression is that he acted on whims.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

My impression is that he acted on whims.

Rosecrans does seem like someone with more focus and prioritization difficulties than the average person. What psychologists today call "executive function."

He was also a very bright and a meticulous, detailed planner - almost seems like a perfectionist.

It's hard to say without knowing details of his childhood, much less meeting him, but if any general in the American Civil War had Aspergers (a condition not recognized for another 80 years) it was probably William Rosecrans.

 

[David Moore]

Rosecrans does seem like someone with more focus and prioritization difficulties than the average person. What psychologists today call "executive function."

He was also a very bright and a meticulous, detailed planner - almost seems like a perfectionist.

It's hard to say without knowing details of his childhood, much less meeting him, but if any general in the American Civil War had Aspergers (a condition not recognized for another 80 years) it was probably William Rosecrans.

Asperger's! Well it might be as simple as Rosecrans knowing that the political leaders in Washington were not unwilling " to see evil befall him" as Garfield wrote in 1867. But then who was Garfield to know? That he was there is irrelevant. This talk is going - where it seemingly always goes with Rosecrans on this site - into a world of supposition if not fantasy.
Poor Rosey berated by current people who claim to be Union supporters. This is why Albert Castel said courage would be needed to write about him. He must not be supported over Grant who of course did have a debilitating medical problem. Probably time for me to once again retreat. I was only trying to share what I've learned over 30+ years with someone curious about Rosecrans but that can't compare to medical analysis 100 years after the deaths of all those involved.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Asperger's! Well it might be as simple as Rosecrans knowing that the political leaders in Washington were not unwilling " to see evil befall him" as Garfield wrote in 1867. But then who was Garfield to know? That he was there is irrelevant. This talk is going - where it seemingly always goes with Rosecrans on this site - into a world of supposition if not fantasy.
Poor Rosey berated by current people who claim to be Union supporters. This is why Albert Castel said courage would be needed to write about him. He must not be supported over Grant who of course did have a debilitating medical problem. Probably time for me to once again retreat. I was only trying to share what I've learned over 30+ years with someone curious about Rosecrans but that can't compare to medical analysis 100 years after the deaths of all those involved.

Then, with your "30+ years" of studying Rosecrans, explain why he appears recklessly aggressive at times, to the point of endangering his army, and at other times appears to be passive and unwilling to move.

Do you have any critical insights about Rosecrans' behavior? Or are you only critical of Rosecrans' enemies?

 

[Rhea Cole]

After decades of study I have concluded that Rosecrans was an example of the Peter Principle of rising to the level of incompetence. The engineer that made him such a brilliant organizer prevented him from becoming a brilliant combat commander. My conclusion is that an ideal division of labor would have been Rosecrans commanding the Department of the Cumberland & Thomas as commander of the army. They could have maintained their very productive partnership while each exercised his special gifts.

People who measure such things rate Rosecrans' IQ as the highest among CW generals... which is also the straight line for many jokes. He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00am discussing Catholic theology. Under the stress of combat he would ride forward under fire. He would have the brains of staff members splattered onto his coat. This show of bravado deeply impressed the troops. Three cheers & a tiger greeted his appearance. Unfortunately, the stress caused him to shout nonsense orders in a jackhammer stutter to dumbfounded officers.

At Chickamauga a characteristically Rosecrans solution to his dashing around the battle space was implemented. The brilliant James Garfield had a War game-like board with unit counters on it. As reports came in, the pieces were moved accordingly. It was a preview of the aerial / satellite / drone real-time situational awareness of a modernHQ. It was a misplaced counter that gave Longstreet his opening.

Objectively, the compelling conclusion is that Rosecrans was not the man to break the siege & lead the advance to Atlanta. Dana's reports have been called a clinical report of the effects of stress & sleep deprivation. Grant's only criticism of the plans Rosecrans had for breaking the siege was that he had not implemented them.

In my judgement, Rosecrans was like a brilliant entrepreneur who had to step aside to let the enterprise be managed in a business like way.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

The engineer that made him such a brilliant organizer prevented him from becoming a brilliant combat commander.

So basically same problem as Meade and McClellan, among others?

 

[stetson7]

A little bit more trivia concerning Rosecrans…he was apparently offered the vice presidential spot under Lincoln in the election of 1864. However, due to a glitch with the telegraph service and/or possible shenanigans from Edwin Stanton, Rosecrans' response to Lincoln never arrived. In any event, one has to wonder how history might have changed if he had become President after Lincoln's assassination.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

A little bit more trivia concerning Rosecrans…he was apparently offered the vice presidential spot under Lincoln in the election of 1864. However, due to a glitch with the telegraph service and/or possible shenanigans from Edwin Stanton, Rosecrans' response to Lincoln never arrived. In any event, one has to wonder how history might have changed if he had become President after Lincoln's assassination.

Given Rosecrans public standing in the aftermath of Chickamauga and especially his Catholicism I don't see him as beneficial to the ticket.

 

[Pollaco]

It sounds like Stanton was the "Teflon" politician back then.Rumours and innuendo that couldn't be proven. Controversial?

 

[VeronicaLake12]

Given Rosecrans public standing in the aftermath of Chickamauga and especially his Catholicism I don't see him as beneficial to the ticket.

Especially his Catholicism? Was the North at that time so pro- Protestant? If so was it Calvinist? Weselyn? I'm learning here so please bare with me! I just want to learn the facts.

 

[VeronicaLake12]

After decades of study I have concluded that Rosecrans was an example of the Peter Principle of rising to the level of incompetence. The engineer that made him such a brilliant organizer prevented him from becoming a brilliant combat commander. My conclusion is that an ideal division of labor would have been Rosecrans commanding the Department of the Cumberland & Thomas as commander of the army. They could have maintained their very productive partnership while each exercised his special gifts.

People who measure such things rate Rosecrans' IQ as the highest among CW generals... which is also the straight line for many jokes. He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00am discussing Catholic theology. Under the stress of combat he would ride forward under fire. He would have the brains of staff members splattered onto his coat. This show of bravado deeply impressed the troops. Three cheers & a tiger greeted his appearance. Unfortunately, the stress caused him to shout nonsense orders in a jackhammer stutter to dumbfounded officers.

At Chickamauga a characteristically Rosecrans solution to his dashing around the battle space was implemented. The brilliant James Garfield had a War game-like board with unit counters on it. As reports came in, the pieces were moved accordingly. It was a preview of the aerial / satellite / drone real-time situational awareness of a modernHQ. It was a misplaced counter that gave Longstreet his opening.

Objectively, the compelling conclusion is that Rosecrans was not the man to break the siege & lead the advance to Atlanta. Dana's reports have been called a clinical report of the effects of stress & sleep deprivation. Grant's only criticism of the plans Rosecrans had for breaking the siege was that he had not implemented them.

In my judgement, Rosecrans was like a brilliant entrepreneur who had to step aside to let the enterprise be managed in a business like way.

I thank you before I post this for your reply. Can you expound on your "He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00 AM discussing Catholic theology. May I ask what is "unhealthy " about that? I ask being the most Calvinist person on planet Earth. Thank you for your time helping me understand the US Civil War!

 

[TallTallMan]

Given Rosecrans public standing in the aftermath of Chickamauga and especially his Catholicism I don't see him as beneficial to the ticket.

I thank you before I post this for your reply. Can you expound on your "He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00 AM discussing Catholic theology. May I ask what is "unhealthy " about that? I ask being the most Calvinist person on planet Earth. Thank you for your time helping me understand the US Civil War!

Being Catholic I have to say this is very strange. I never saw Catholics as being persecuted widespread in the CW, given Sheridan and Beauregard.

 

[breckod]

I thank you before I post this for your reply. Can you expound on your "He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00 AM discussing Catholic theology. May I ask what is "unhealthy " about that? I ask being the most Calvinist person on planet Earth. Thank you for your time helping me understand the US Civil War!

I think you'll find doctors agree that a bedtime of 2:00 AM and often up around dawn is not the healthiest routine imaginable.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Especially his Catholicism? Was the North at that time so pro- Protestant? If so was it Calvinist? Weselyn? I'm learning here so please bare with me! I just want to learn the facts.

There was a lot of prejudice against Catholics in 19th century America, especially because most Catholics were Irish immigrants. In the decades following the American Civil War there was a lot of Italian immigration that was the target of similar prejudice. Anti-Catholic prejudice remained strong into the mid-20th century (we can't discuss it here, but I recommend looking into 1920s politics for more on this issue).

Catholics were a particular target of the Know Nothings (American Party) of the 1850s.

Besides the correlation with certain ethnic groups that were the target of prejudice, the loyalty of Catholics was questioned because of the Pope.

Here's a starting point on the subject:

Anti-Catholicism in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't know that any particular Protestant denomination was dominant, North or South, in the 1860s.

That's not to say it was impossible to successful as a non-WASP.

By way of comparison: Ely Parker was on Grant's staff and became a Brevet Brigadier General yet I hope nobody would think that somehow disproves widespread prejudice against Native Americans in the 19th century.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Can you expound on your "He had an unhealthy habit of keeping his young staff up until 2:00 AM discussing Catholic theology. May I ask what is "unhealthy " about that? I ask being the most Calvinist person on planet Earth. Thank you for your time helping me understand the US Civil War!

Besides the need for all the sleep you can get in a war, Rosecrans was being obsessive about a topic that few of his subordinates were interested in, and probably none shared his views or faith. He could have just as soon been fixated on astronomy or astrology, and it would have been little better.

It's said that none are so evangelical as adult converts, but it's worth noting that hyperfixation and inability to "read the room" fit with the Aspergers theory I mentioned earlier.