Forrest "We Don't Have Enough Contempt for NBF"

[Lnwlf]

The first iteration of the Klan is on topic, IF it relates to NBF. The later versions are off topic. Forrest was long dead before the later versions arrived.

Posted as Moderator.

 

[WJSDcav]

The klan is still around here. Up until the 70s they marched in 4th of July parades just like any other civic organization and contained some of the most prominent businessmen and professionals in the area. They actually were like any other club or such and didn't have to show their meanness because there were just about no minorities left around here to speak of! However, in recent years they've tried to slither out of their den because they see too many Mexicans living here - they haven't had much luck. They even tried to adopt a piece of highway to keep clean and nobody would even let them pick up trash. We have fine upstanding jail birds to do that, thank you! They even tried to connect with the **** group that recently showed up - neither one could stand the other. Yikes.

Forrest always blamed the violence of the klan he was in on other groups infiltrating it. It had a pretty good arrangement, so that it was - as was proven later - almost impossible to stamp out. Brownlow and other governors were actively trying to quell the post-war insurgents who were operating under other names. That was working and many of these became klansmen without leaving violence at the door. Forrest never claimed to be the Grand Wizard, or anything - so, as the original article mentions, he didn't claim to be the leader of the klan without actually being the leader. The Grand Wizard title was a code name for him. He was important to them, but likely not the acknowledged and elected leader - although Forrest, by nature, would take the lead in anything he was involved in.

I thought it was well known he was the first Grand Wizard by late 1866 or early 1867 from several sources I read last night. He wasn't officially a leader any more by the 1871 congressional inquiries or after 1869, but that doesn't change the fact he was that earlier. I'm surprised to read this statement he never claimed to be the Grand Wizard. Now I'll have to go back over what I was telling some people yesterday. Now I'm confused because I had thought it was clearly so. I was reading several sites that had said this, but they could have been wrong. And Findagrave might have been one. Findagrave describes his grandson NB Forrest II as a Grand Dragon. I don't see how one could say he was not a major leader in 1867 and "Grand Wizard," whatever he did to distance himself to avoid arrest after 1868.

When you mention the klan is around where you are, I don't know what state you are referencing, but it's interesting to know where they are active.

 

[WJSDcav]

Of course there were lots of lynchings but they weren't necessarily connected to the 20s Stephenson KKK which had millions of dues paying members and major chapters in the North and West. This KKK was racist and xenophobic but also ran as a business, and was very politically involved with promoting its version of Protestant values (pro prohibition).

Indeed there were in the 1920s era. The KKK marched in Gainesville the day before the lynching spree in Rosewood.
http://www.rosewoodflorida.com/history

"ROSEWOOD MASSACRE
On the morning of January 1, 1923, Fannie Coleman Taylor, a white woman and homemaker of Sumner Florida, claimed a black man assaulted her. Although she was not seriously injured and was able to describe what happened, she allegedly remained unconscious for several hours due to the shock of the incident. No one disputed her account and no questions were asked. It was assumed she was reporting the incident accurately.

POSSE SUMMONED
James Taylor, a foreman at ****** & Sons saw mill and Fannie Taylor's husband, assembled a vicious mob and ordered tracking dogs. The local white community became enraged at the alleged abuse of a white woman by a black man; it was an unpardonable sin for any black man to gaze upon a white woman and he most certainly could not touch one.

ASSISTANCE SOUGHT
James Taylor requested help from Levy County and neighboring Alachua County, where a staged Ku Klux Klan celebration was ending on the courthouse square in downtown Gainesville, Florida. A large number of KKK members had been rallying and marching in opposition of justice for black people on December 31, 1922, leading up to the January 1, 1923 Rosewood massacre.

A telegraph sent to Gainesville in regards to Fannie Taylor's allegations provoked four to five hundred Klansmen to head to Sumner at the appeal of James Taylor. Negative commentary sent out over the airwaves created tension, fueling the already incensed mindset of the KKK. They packed their gear and headed to a town called Rosewood with a vengeance to participate in destroying the town at any cost. The posse arrived enraged, rabid, and ravenous for blood. They combed the woods behind the Taylor's home looking for a suspect, any suspect if a black man. "

[the rest is a tale of burning, lynching, and terrorism]

 

[WJSDcav]

The first iteration of the Klan is on topic, IF it relates to NBF. The later versions are off topic. Forrest was long dead before the later versions arrived.

Posted as Moderator.

Well, he was an early member, an influential regional KKK leader in 1867, and was mentioned prominently in the Clansman book which was the source material that inspired Birth of a Nation, which in turn inspired the Klan version II of the 1920s. Sorry for those of us replying to the earlier remarks. I'll refrain from adding more to the earlier comments.

 

[diane]

I thought it was well known he was the first Grand Wizard by late 1866 or early 1867 from several sources I read last night. He wasn't officially a leader any more by the 1871 congressional inquiries or after 1869, but that doesn't change the fact he was that earlier. I'm surprised to read this statement he never claimed to be the Grand Wizard. Now I'll have to go back over what I was telling some people yesterday. Now I'm confused because I had thought it was clearly so. I was reading several sites that had said this, but they could have been wrong. And Findagrave might have been one. Findagrave describes his grandson NB Forrest II as a Grand Dragon. I don't see how one could say he was not a major leader in 1867 and "Grand Wizard," whatever he did to distance himself to avoid arrest after 1868.

When you mention the klan is around where you are, I don't know what state you are referencing, but it's interesting to know where they are active.

No, Forrest never claimed to be even a member. He may well not have been, too. It was a violation of his parole - big time - to be participating in anything remotely connected to activities against the government or the law. Forrest, like many right after the war, felt distinctly persecuted and really thought there would be the need of another uprising. He was not wanting to start a war, having just finished one, but he felt it might well be necessary.

When Morton gave him the oath in a field with no other witness than Morton, Forrest interrupted him midway - in short, he didn't take the oath and gave Morton the impression he was already in the organization. He didn't show up for his initiation and they concluded one without him. So, actually, Forrest wasn't a member as he had not taken any oaths or gone through any of their ceremonies - but they accepted him. He was the type of big name, respected person they had been looking for and were satisfied to have him on board with them.

As has been noted elsewhere, some considered Forrest and John B Gordon to be using their insurance business to sell the klan rather than insurance - and that was pretty much the case. These two heroic and much respected generals were an invaluable asset to the klan. Forrest travelled the South doing business, most legitimately, but in the off-time recruiting. The worst thing he is responsible for is spreading it and giving it a paramilitary structure very much like his war-time intelligence network. Forrest has often been called a poor gatherer of intelligence but he actually had one of the best rings in the war - it was never broken by the enemy. It had the same loose structure and disconnected cells as the klan developed.

Forrest came to realize and said so in a private letter that his participation in the klan was 'the worst mistake of my life'. He may have supported it for some time after he ordered it disbanded - if he really had that authority - but did see they were too violent and too uncontrollable. While he really did try to discourage anyone else from joining, and to get anyone in it to quit, it didn't work with his brothers and son - they remained in support of it.

 

[ole]

I thought it was well known he was the first Grand Wizard by late 1866 or early 1867 from several sources I read last night. He wasn't officially a leader any more by the 1871 congressional inquiries or after 1869, but that doesn't change the fact he was that earlier. I'm surprised to read this statement he never claimed to be the Grand Wizard. Now I'll have to go back over what I was telling some people yesterday. Now I'm confused because I had thought it was clearly so. I was reading several sites that had said this, but they could have been wrong. And Findagrave might have been one. Findagrave describes his grandson NB Forrest II as a Grand Dragon. I don't see how one could say he was not a major leader in 1867 and "Grand Wizard," whatever he did to distance himself to avoid arrest after 1868.

When you mention the klan is around where you are, I don't know what state you are referencing, but it's interesting to know where they are active.

The way I read the situation is that he allowed his name to be used as a recruiting incentive for the four acquaintances who were the real instigators.

Imagine how many would eagerly join when told that none other than himself is the Grand Wizard. His actual influence was revealed when he ordered the group to disband. It didn't.

 

[Rebforever]

It's true that for a lot of members it was primarily a political club. I wish I could remember who told me this - I want to say it was a family member, but it may have been someone on this forum. Some gentleman who was in the habit of joining many social clubs innocently went to a recruitment meeting for the klan. On coming home, he told his wife, "I don't think that's a very good club!"

The Masons were a political club and still are on the National scene.
Do you have a resource for your statement? Repeating something you think you heard someone say don't cut it!

 

[Allie]

The Masons were a political club and still are on the National scene.
Do you have a resource for your statement? Repeating something you think you heard someone say don't cut it!

As you can see, the person who made the statement originally has verified it on the thread. I was clear about my source - a vague recollection - and did not pretend it was an authoritative statement. You are at liberty, when someone offers their memory as a source, to make judgements about their statement based on your opinion of that person and whether their previous statements have seemed reliable to you. In this case, although my memory of where I heard it was poor, the statement itself was valid. I repeated it because it was funny and not to offer proof of anything.

Yes, it does in fact "cut it" to say you think you remember reading something once. What doesn't cut it - I assume you made this post because you've been asked to give sources yourself in the past - is claiming something you think you read once is an indisputable fact, in the face of opposing evidence.

 

[matthew mckeon]

If the point of the article is that if you're going to have contempt for Forrest, focus on his prewar slave trading. Which was pretty awful.

 

[Drew]

If the point of the article is that if you're going to have contempt for Forrest, focus on his prewar slave trading. Which was pretty awful.

Or, we could focus on his post-war reconciliation speech. Perhaps not the best link, but it's what I found in a hurry.

This stuff is really, really complicated. It just is.

 

[Rebforever]

As you can see, the person who made the statement originally has verified it on the thread. I was clear about my source - a vague recollection - and did not pretend it was an authoritative statement. You are at liberty, when someone offers their memory as a source, to make judgements about their statement based on your opinion of that person and whether their previous statements have seemed reliable to you. In this case, although my memory of where I heard it was poor, the statement itself was valid. I repeated it because it was funny and not to offer proof of anything.

Yes, it does in fact "cut it" to say you think you remember reading something once. What doesn't cut it - I assume you made this post because you've been asked to give sources yourself in the past - is claiming something you think you read once is an indisputable fact, in the face of opposing evidence.

Not a very convincing post.

 

[diane]

If the point of the article is that if you're going to have contempt for Forrest, focus on his prewar slave trading. Which was pretty awful.

That's true. He was the only Confederate general who was a slave trader and you can't put enough lipstick on that pig, or a fluffy enough tutu. But, just for perspective, let's jaunt over to peek at California and read Uncle Jack Farley's obituary, whose heydey was about contemporary with Forrest. The reporter noted razor strops and chairs made of "Indian hide". Like Forrest's former slaves laconically said, "Could have been worse."

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18981211.2.147.19

 

[cash]

That's true. He was the only Confederate general who was a slave trader and you can't put enough lipstick on that pig, or a fluffy enough tutu. But, just for perspective, let's jaunt over to peek at California and read Uncle Jack Farley's obituary, whose heydey was about contemporary with Forrest. The reporter noted razor strops and chairs made of "Indian hide". Like Forrest's former slaves laconically said, "Could have been worse."

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC18981211.2.147.19

Sounds like a two-for-one fallacy. Tu quoque fallacy and fallacy of false equivalence.

Who even knows who this "Uncle Jack Farley" was? Where are the monuments to him? What did he have to do with the Civil War--or even Forrest? [Hmmm. A three-for-one--a non sequitur as well]

If one considers Forrest reprehensible, how does this make Forrest less reprehensible?

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Or, we could focus on his post-war reconciliation speech. Perhaps not the best link, but it's what I found in a hurry.

This stuff is really, really complicated. It just is.

Thanks Drew, Nathan Bedford Forrest was/is indeed complicated !

This is a good thread about Forrest's racial reconciliation speech:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/forrests-1875-speech-to-african-americans-on-reconciliation.115109/

 

[uaskme]

NBF was just like Lincoln. He evolved as a Person. Forest stated he held contempt for the Radical Republicans. These Confederate Officers didn't know
After the war if they would be arrested and tried for treason or not. The new Govenor of TN was a Radical Republican. Forest denounced the KKK when Grant was elected President. Grant gave these X Confederate Officers some assurances of their Future. Grant helped Mosby, Longstreet and NBF as well as others.

 

[diane]

Sounds like a two-for-one fallacy. Tu quoque fallacy and fallacy of false equivalence.

Who even knows who this "Uncle Jack Farley" was? Where are the monuments to him? What did he have to do with the Civil War--or even Forrest? [Hmmm. A three-for-one--a non sequitur as well]

If one considers Forrest reprehensible, how does this make Forrest less reprehensible?

I ain't had no eddijimacation so I don't got no idee a'tall what that first sentence even says! I'll read up some and figger it out, don't worry...

Here's why I pointed out a guy I knew nobody outside of California (and not even there) would know about. There were plenty like him - just like there were plenty of slave traders. Lots of little towns and big cities named after people like this. Check out Father Junipero Serra sometime. (He's famous and there's monuments to him.)

 

[cash]

I ain't had no eddijimacation so I don't got no idee a'tall what that first sentence even says! I'll read up some and figger it out, don't worry...

Here's why I pointed out a guy I knew nobody outside of California (and not even there) would know about. There were plenty like him - just like there were plenty of slave traders. Lots of little towns and big cities named after people like this. Check out Father Junipero Serra sometime. (He's famous and there's monuments to him.)

We could check out Christopher Columbus who is undergoing a re-evaluation. Still doesn't relate to the Civil War.

 

[diane]

We could check out Christopher Columbus who is undergoing a re-evaluation. Still doesn't relate to the Civil War.

There you go! (But it does relate to the topic, which is about contempt for a CW personality.)

 

[1SGDan]

I ain't had no eddijimacation so I don't got no idee a'tall what that first sentence even says! I'll read up some and figger it out, don't worry...

Here's why I pointed out a guy I knew nobody outside of California (and not even there) would know about. There were plenty like him - just like there were plenty of slave traders. Lots of little towns and big cities named after people like this. Check out Father Junipero Serra sometime. (He's famous and there's monuments to him.)

Diane
Education or not your posts are amongst the best and most informational on this forum.
Dan

 

[DixieRifles]

I think the basic premise that Forrest did a whole lot of bad things . . . .

Thanks for saving 5 minutes of my time.
I will skip it.