Trapdoor Pistol

[Mr. King]

http://gunsoftheoldwest.com/2016/01/shermans-springfield-trapdoor-pistol/#1869-prototype-pistols

A little post war, but cool.

 

[ikesdad]

Ouch. And for a trooper mounted on a horse ? I would never touch off one of these as I think more of my wrist and right arm to do that.

 

[mofederal]

It was a good article, but it was something the Army didn't need. They had good pistols, the Colt SAA would be coming in before long. It reminds me of the Howdah pistol, only not as powerful. While interesting as a weapon, it implies a cheapness that was creeping back into the Army. Like they would have to account for every bullet fired.

 

[UCVRelics]

At a 50 - 45 it had to be a 20 mule team kicker. Thanks for sharing.

 

[zburkett]

Don't I remember also seeing a rolling block, single shot, .50 caliber U.S. military pistol?

 

[ikesdad]

Don't I remember also seeing a rolling block, single shot, .50 caliber U.S. military pistol?

Possibly but I do remember that either Navy Arms or DGW marketed one

 

[zburkett]

Actually, the one I remember was in a little Western Junk/antique shop a little south of Jacksboro, Texas about a half century ago. I sort of remember them labeling it a Navy pistol.

 

[frankconrad]

Yes there was one, I think 1867. The recoil would not be anything like a .44 mag. You would know when it went off, but if you had a good grip you could handle it.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The large caliber U.S. Navy Rolling Block pistols were loaded down for hand control, and were meant for close quarters use. Apparently the U.S. Navy still thought they were board an enemy ship in a hostile action in the 1870's!
J.

 

[mofederal]

I remember seeing the Remington Rolling Block pistol, which used basically the same action the rifle. They were tested by the Army. They were rejected, and I think many ended up in being produced from like 1870 to the 1900's. They sold many of these in Europe and in South American. France (Franco Prussian War), Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Egypt, Mexico, and Great Britain (WWI Royal Navy and France in WWI. In fact they resumed production for the French Army. They were popular hunting rifles in the US. They made a Army and Navy version of the rifle and pistols. The pistols were made and off and in different versions from 1865 with Army, Navy and Target versions until 1914.

 

[mofederal]

The large caliber U.S. Navy Rolling Block pistols were loaded down for hand control, and were meant for close quarters use. Apparently the U.S. Navy still thought they were board an enemy ship in a hostile action in the 1870's!
J.

A little know Naval Action in Korea in 1871, The United States Expedition to Korea. The expedition was a reply to the General Sherman ( a merchantman) incident, when it and another US ship was attacked by the Koreans. The Koreans also fired on two other US warships. Ten days later an expedition was launched. The ships were from the US Asiatic Fleet, led by Rear Admiral John Rodgers and Frederick F. Low, US Ambassador to China. The ships were the Colorado, Alaska, Palos, Monocacy and Benicia. The Navy landed 500 Sailors and 100 Marines, who attacked some forts and a citadel. The Remington Navy Arms were used in the taking of the forts and the citadel. Nine sailors and six Marines won the MOH. The losses were for the US, 3 dead, the Koreans 200 dead.

 

[tbuckley]

Back in the early 1950s a neighbor plowed up a Remington rolling block pistol. He had a local gunsmith restore it into a very nice wall hanger. Always wondered if this had been buried to get rid of evidence.

 

[Package4]

Trapdoor pistol? Talk about a wristbreaker..........

 

[Package4]

It was a good article, but it was something the Army didn't need. They had good pistols, the Colt SAA would be coming in before long. It reminds me of the Howdah pistol, only not as powerful. While interesting as a weapon, it implies a cheapness that was creeping back into the Army. Like they would have to account for every bullet fired.

The army was implicit in their frugality, post CW; imagine if Custer's men had either Henrys/Winchesters or Spencers. I am not sure this is true, but IIRC a new trooper was relegated to 12 practice rounds per year. The army purposely relegated their troops to single shot arms as much as possible to save on the ammunition cost.

 

[Mr. King]

The army was implicit in their frugality, post CW; imagine if Custer's men had either Henrys/Winchesters or Spencers. I am not sure this is true, but IIRC a new trooper was relegated to 12 practice rounds per year. The army purposely relegated their troops to single shot arms as much as possible to save on the ammunition cost.

That was the dumbest practice. I'll never understand it.

If I had been a captain of a company of cavalry on the plains, I would have done whatever I had to do to make certain my men were well versed.

 

[Package4]

That was the dumbest practice. I'll never understand it.

If I had been a captain of a company of cavalry on the plains, I would have done whatever I had to do to make certain my men were well versed.

I know, I need to look up the source, but fairly sure it is accurate, they had mountains of excess Spencer and Henry ammunition, but instead thought that the TD carbine would limit expenditure. The brass would expand and jam rendering the weapon useless and the "punch" that they thought they were getting from the higher grained cartridge was negated by the Plains Indian tactics.

 

[Mr. King]

And lets leave those heave gatling guns behind.... we never need them.... I'm sick of dragging them all over creation....

 

[Ralph Heinz]

Actually those early Springfield "trap door" rifles fired copper cased ammunition even though brass cased center fire ammunition was being used by civilians. Those copper cases were softer than brass ones and with verdigris build up from being carried in leather ammunition belts, the copper cases had a terrible record of sticking in the chambers with the head of the case tearing off and leaving the rest of the case stuck in the chamber making the carbine un-usable. The Army did indeed limit the amount of ammunition available for practice and officers failed to check their men's ammunition to see that any verdigris (green acetate of copper) had been cleaned off. The Army didn't switch to brass cases until the 1880's. Those early copper .45/70 rifle and .45/55 carbine rounds were inside primed (Benet priming) which makes them resemble a rim fire though the primer was built inside the head of the case.

Officers sometimes limited who could fire their weapons in battle to the best shots as the average enlisted man had so little practice or skill that he would only waste ammunition. It wasn't until a decade after the disaster of the Little Big Horn (when the Indian Wars were largely over) that the Army really "got with the program" and concentrated on marksmanship and target matches.

Decades ago I examined a huge private collection of Custer Battle relics at the home of Hank Weibert in Montana and he had found a copper case on the battlefield that had been stuck in the chamber of a carbine as the head of the case had pulled off leaving the rest of the copper case stuck in the barrel. An Indian warrior had dropped a long leather thong down the barrel from the muzzle to the breach with a knot in it. He then inserted a very thin bladed knife into the breech to bend over parts of the copper case. That done, he pulled the leather thong from the breech end and the knot held and the ruined case came out. The thin blade of the knife was found in proximity to the case with the leather knot still inside it. The warrior rode off with a now usable carbine.

Leather tanned with sulphuric acid will cause brass or copper to react by building up that green verdigris. You can see this around rivets in old leather.

 

[WJC]

And lets leave those heave gatling guns behind.... we never need them.... I'm sick of dragging them all over creation....

Actually, Custer was not the only officer who left gatling guns behind when on sorties or campaigns. The gun, with associated equipment and ammunition was heavy and unwieldy and slowed down any unit- infantry or cavalry- who took them along.

 

[WJC]

Actually those early Springfield "trap door" rifles fired copper cased ammunition even though brass cased center fire ammunition was being used by civilians. Those copper cases were softer than brass ones and with verdigris build up from being carried in leather ammunition belts, the copper cases had a terrible record of sticking in the chambers with the head of the case tearing off and leaving the rest of the case stuck in the chamber making the carbine un-usable. The Army did indeed limit the amount of ammunition available for practice and officers failed to check their men's ammunition to see that any verdigris (green acetate of copper) had been cleaned off. The Army didn't switch to brass cases until the 1880's. Those early copper .45/70 rifle and .45/55 carbine rounds were inside primed (Benet priming) which makes them resemble a rim fire though the primer was built inside the head of the case.

Officers sometimes limited who could fire their weapons in battle to the best shots as the average enlisted man had so little practice or skill that he would only waste ammunition. It wasn't until a decade after the disaster of the Little Big Horn (when the Indian Wars were largely over) that the Army really "got with the program" and concentrated on marksmanship and target matches.

Decades ago I examined a huge private collection of Custer Battle relics at the home of Hank Weibert in Montana and he had found a copper case on the battlefield that had been stuck in the chamber of a carbine as the head of the case had pulled off leaving the rest of the copper case stuck in the barrel. An Indian warrior had dropped a long leather thong down the barrel from the muzzle to the breach with a knot in it. He then inserted a very thin bladed knife into the breech to bend over parts of the copper case. That done, he pulled the leather thong from the breech end and the knot held and the ruined case came out. The thin blade of the knife was found in proximity to the case with the leather knot still inside it. The warrior rode off with a now usable carbine.

Leather tanned with sulphuric acid will cause brass or copper to react by building up that green verdigris. You can see this around rivets in old leather.
View attachment 158826

Thanks for the information and for posting what may be the truest representation of the death of Custer available. There may be other innacuracies, but the only one I see is Custer's hair. Custer- whose hair was thinning- joined a similarly balding Lieutenant Varnum and "had the clippers run over their heads" before leaving Fort Lincoln.<T. M. Coughlin, Varnum: The Last of Custer's Lieutenants. (Bryan, TX: J. M. Carroll, 1980), p. 35.>
Custer himself was a stickler for training, but had been away from the Regiment for some time. In his absence, training was lax. About a third of the men were raw recruits who had joined since the previous fall. Marksmanship was less a training priority than care of the horses. Years afterward, survivor Private Peter Thompson told his daughter that "he scarcely knew how to shoot a gun, he was 'spitless' of one."<Susan Thompson Taylor, Thompson in Custer's Cavalry, 1875-1880.>