Breech loading Whitworth rifles

RetiredCanuck

Corporal
Joined
Apr 11, 2024
Everyone is probably aware of the muzzle loading Whitworth, used with great effectiveness by Confederate marksmen during the war.

Wondering if the concept ever materialized as a breech loader, either experimentally by the factory or some post-war adaptation by others like the Trapdoor Springfield/Snyder Enfield.
 
Everyone is probably aware of the muzzle loading Whitworth, used with great effectiveness by Confederate marksmen during the war.

Wondering if the concept ever materialized as a breech loader, either experimentally by the factory or some post-war adaptation by others like the Trapdoor Springfield/Snyder Enfield.
Yes, I am aware of a couple of Snider conversions, and a breech loading double rifle. There were also some trials rifles.

David
 
Built in France the government refused to deliver the ironclad ram to the CSA. Sold to Denmark, christened Sphinx, but was returned. Sold to the CSA & christened CSS Stonewall. Turned over to US at Havana. Sold to Imperial Japanese Navy, Christened Kotetsu / Azuma.

There is no indication as to how the ship was armed under French, Danish, CSA, USA & Japanese possession.

Link to CSS Stonewall:

Note: If you are not familiar with the NavSource Photo Index, it is a singular resource. Under Old Navy Steam & Sail is a listing of every U.S. & CSA commissioned vessel. The Mointors are listed on the battleship index. Technical data, captains, engagements & ultimate disposition are included. Photos & illustrations, depending on the vessel, can be quite extensive.
 
Sorry but I have no clue! Bu an interesting question! But maybe I can get you some help, paging @UCVRelics

The CSS Stonewall was interned in Havana, Cuba. It was delivered in the war's final months. None of the armament could have been transferred for land use.

By then, I am not sure there was anyplace left that could have used off loaded cannon.
 
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That is interesting. The NavSource Index link I posted down thread does not have any armament data. You can send them your information.
I had noted that previously, but they don't seem to want to know. Her main weapon mounted forward was an Armstrong 10.5" MLR firing a 300lb shot. This one one of two originally ordered James D Bulloch for "Santa Maria" alias Danmark, where they were to be mounted as pivot guns on the upper deck. The other of the pair went to Stonewall's sister ship.
This was the rifled version of the 10'5" SBs mounted in HMS Royal Soveriegn. Her captain said that if they had been rifled the ship would have been the equal of anything on earth.
 
I had noted that previously, but they don't seem to want to know. Her main weapon mounted forward was an Armstrong 10.5" MLR firing a 300lb shot. This one one of two originally ordered James D Bulloch for "Santa Maria" alias Danmark, where they were to be mounted as pivot guns on the upper deck. The other of the pair went to Stonewall's sister ship.
This was the rifled version of the 10'5" SBs mounted in HMS Royal Soveriegn. Her captain said that if they had been rifled the ship would have been the equal of anything on earth.

Thanks. The Stonewall / Azuma ram is a curious vessel, indeed. It was not a threat to the USN, but it had to have been a nightmare for the Royal Navy.

I have wondered if it was possible to hit anything at 1,000 yards unless sea conditions were duck pond smooth & maybe not then.

Robert K. Massey describes the bombardment of Alexandria in his book 'Dreadnaught.' Shooting at stationary targets the RN's elite Mediterranean fleet only managed to hit the targeted fortifications a small number of times.

One captain's reaction to the inaccurate fire was novel. At anchor on a flat sea, he had the hands run back & forth athwart ship to simulate waves to no avail.

It was that experience that set Admiral Jacky Fisher on his quest for effective fire control.
 
I think the RN did not consider the Stonewall a threat, they knew that it's timber construction and thin armour wouldn't stand up to a true ironclad. The accepted battle range for the RN in 1860 was 800 yards, and this slowly crept up to 1,000 yards. There was a better chance of getting hits with broadside ships mounting numbers of medium calibre guns, but the ever bigger gun and ever thicker armour mantra had taken hold in all navies, blithely ignoring the lesser chance of hitting with fewer slower firing guns.
The best of the MLR was the 9" Armstrong/Woolwich MLR - more by accident than design. Having said that, at Alexandria, American observers were surprised at how accurate HMS Inflexible's 16" MLR were compared to other vessels.

In terms of fire control, Captain Cochrane in HMS Warrior had the broadsides "slaved" to the centre gun. You can see the deflection scales on the gunports in her at Portsmouth. HMS Terror, with Admiral Milne on the NA&WI station had the same system but centred on two towers, one on each broadside.
 
I think the RN did not consider the Stonewall a threat, they knew that it's timber construction and thin armour wouldn't stand up to a true ironclad. The accepted battle range for the RN in 1860 was 800 yards, and this slowly crept up to 1,000 yards. There was a better chance of getting hits with broadside ships mounting numbers of medium calibre guns, but the ever bigger gun and ever thicker armour mantra had taken hold in all navies, blithely ignoring the lesser chance of hitting with fewer slower firing guns.
The best of the MLR was the 9" Armstrong/Woolwich MLR - more by accident than design. Having said that, at Alexandria, American observers were surprised at how accurate HMS Inflexible's 16" MLR were compared to other vessels.

In terms of fire control, Captain Cochrane in HMS Warrior had the broadsides "slaved" to the centre gun. You can see the deflection scales on the gunports in her at Portsmouth. HMS Terror, with Admiral Milne on the NA&WI station had the same system but centred on two towers, one on each broadside.

My reference was to the RN's reaction to the French ironclads. The threat posed to the unarmored RN vessels & to commerce was very real.

Of course the Stonewall / Azuma was constructed of wood & iron plate. The entire ironclad U.S. Civil War compliment was constructed in that manner.

It is instructive to note that the resistance of wood was exploited by the pocket battleship Bismarck. It had a layer of wood in its torpedo belt.

The difficulty inherent in laying 1,000 (+) yard rifles from the deck of a ship was not a unique to the RN. At Manila Bay the U.S. Navy scored (+/-) 10% hits against Spanish navy vessels.

The best description of the vexing challenges of laying naval guns that I know of is in Robert K. Massie's "Dreadnaught, Britain, Germany & the coming of the Great War."

Large caliber RN ordinance was laid, in part, by peering down the bore. Each gun was laid by the gunner.

The concentration of fire & deck marking referred to were initially utilized by HMS Shannon during the War of 1812.

IMG_0137.jpeg

I can attest from personal experience that after a couple of rounds you can't see a thing from the gun deck. No matter how improbable your shipmates.

IMG_0642.jpeg

The same is true on land.

At Alexandria in 1882 the RN Mediterranean Fleet (if memory serves) fired (+/-) 2,000 rounds at Egyptian forts over a ten hour period while at anchor. The small number of hits were very effective, the rest were described as having been "…fired wildly."

It was Admiral Jacky Fisher & Admiral Scott who overcame dogged resistance to establish the efficiency of remote control gun laying from high atop the smoke.

In a harbinger of things to come, General Sherman & Admiral Porter issued a code for controlling the fire of gunboats with signal flag or torch.

At Baton Rouge LA a signalist in a church steeple rained large caliber shells down on shocked CSA attackers. F-L-R or F-L-L, fire a little to the right, fire a little to the left, e.g., was a simple , effective indirect fire control system. Wisely, the CSA attackers broke into a howling retreat.
 
With reference to gun smoke obscuring visibility, there is a piece of film taken from Prinz Eugen of Bismarck in action against Hood and Prince of Wales, showing quite clearly that her gunnery officer is waiting for the ship to steam clear of smoke between each salvo, although the director was some 100ft above the waterline. My best friend, who saw the the US BBs from directly astern in action in the Gulf War also remarked on the loss of visibility when broadside firing.
 

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