.69 Calibre Trapdoor Conversion?

[RetiredCanuck]

Okay-right off the bat, I'll admit this sounds a bit off the wall....

That being said, was there ever any attempt to convert good condition M42 .69 calibre Springfield muskets to trapdoor configuration?
Not much use for the army, but I thought if some enterprising private concern got ahold of some dirt cheap after the war, they could convert them to breech loading shotguns for civilian hunters.
16 gage shells are pretty close in size.

Any thoughts?

 

[scooter748driver]

Not that I am aware of. The Model 1865 Trapdoor was in .58 calibre Rimfire. Those that came after were .50 calibre (50-70) or .45 calibre (45-70).

Here's a favorite web site that I refer to on Trapdoors:

The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center

THIS SITE SPECIALIZES IN: (1) TRAPDOOR SPRINGFIELD RIFLES & CARBINES, 1865-1893; (2) INDIAN WAR & SPAN-AM WAR: U.S SPRINGFIELD TRAPDOOR ARMS; (3) 1865-1893 MILITARY: BAYONETS, KNIVES, ENTRENCHING TOOLS/TROWELS, MILLS & PRAIRIE BELTS, MCKEEVER / DYER POUCHES & CARBINE BOOTS.

www.armscollectors.com

 

[S.Isaacson]

While not a Allin trapdoor or rimfire/centerfire, there were some breech loading conversions of the Model 1842 using the Merrill system.

Merrill Breech Loading US Harpers Ferry Model 1842 Rifle Musket

Rare Merrill Breech Loading Conversion U.S. Harpers Ferry Model 1842 Percussion Rifled Musket with BayonetOnly 100 each of the Model 1842 muskets, Model 1841 "Mississippi" rifles, and Model 1847 cavalry musketoons were reportedly converted using James H. Merrill's breech loading system c...

www.rockislandauction.com

 

[RetiredCanuck]

Wow. Thanks for posting. Guess it wasn't as daft a question as I had originally thought. So the Allin conversions were contemporary for CW?
Wonder what the ammunition looked like.

 

[JOHN42768]

Many Civil War firearms were converted to cartridge. Here is just one example of mine, Bridesburg:

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Google "ZULU shotguns" and you'll see a common conversion - French muskets were converted to breach-loader for the Franco Prussian War times (as I recall), but then disposed of as out of date and surplus by the military, they were cut shot and made into civilian shotguns for sale - they sold for a dollar or two for decades in the US! They were chambered for the 12 gauge shotgun shell, which I think is .73 caliber. The ZULU name was just marketing, based on the idea that these would be used by Africans, or other third world users.

 

[S.Isaacson]

Wow. Thanks for posting. Guess it wasn't as daft a question as I had originally thought. So the Allin conversions were contemporary for CW?
Wonder what the ammunition looked like.

There were breech loading conversions developed prior to and during the Civil War, but the Allin conversions came out just following the war as a method to turn surplus rifle-muskets into breechloaders, and the system became the basis of subsequent Springfield trapdoor rifles and carbines used in the latter quarter of the 19th century.

Google "ZULU shotguns" and you'll see a common conversion - French muskets were converted to breach-loader for the Franco Prussian War times (as I recall), but then disposed of as out of date and surplus by the military, they were cut shot and made into civilian shotguns for sale - they sold for a dollar or two for decades in the US! They were chambered for the 12 gauge shotgun shell, which I think is .73 caliber. The ZULU name was just marketing, based on the idea that these would be used by Africans, or other third world users.

Those are based on the Tabatiere system developed in 1864 but most often seen on those export quality smoothbores made from surplus muskets and rifle muskets and typically bearing Liege proofs.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

I have heard an interesting explanation of why some of these have brass breach blocks - do you know the truth?

 

[7thWisconsin]

Google "ZULU shotguns" and you'll see a common conversion - French muskets were converted to breach-loader for the Franco Prussian War times (as I recall), but then disposed of as out of date and surplus by the military, they were cut shot and made into civilian shotguns for sale - they sold for a dollar or two for decades in the US! They were chambered for the 12 gauge shotgun shell, which I think is .73 caliber. The ZULU name was just marketing, based on the idea that these would be used by Africans, or other third world users.

Africa was the dumping ground for obsolete firearms since the early 18th century. European policies deliberately pointed the sale of nearly garbage arms to African nations to keep military competition low. This is turn led to poor musket training and marksmanship in African nations, and over-reliance on traditional weapon systems. All of which made for feeble militaries when the Europeans came knocking at the door in the late 19th century.

 

[yulzari]

The 'Zulu' Belgian shotguns were made for the poor end of the USA market. Vastly popular. Not at all for Africa. Just a marketing name. Colonial laws often precluded breech loaders and the ammunition, even percussion caps for muzzle loaders, were too expensive so the Belgians continued making flintlocks for the African and Brazilian markets right into the 1960s. Often percussion locks converted to flint locks.

Do note that the 'Zulus' were made for black powder cartridges and the period common length was shorter than today's common length. Do not use modern smokeless cartridges. The locks usually hold the greatly increased pressure but the receivers stretch. Fine with a period black powder charge and cut down modern cases.

European powers had no policy on selling cheap firearms into Africa but the manufacturers and salesmen did exploit the demand for cheap firearms.

 

[7thWisconsin]

I think you said it better than I did. Officials from the European powers allowed sub-standard arms to be shipped to Africa, but the practice was not a deliberate act of foreign policy.

 

[Story]

While not a Allin trapdoor or rimfire/centerfire, there were some breech loading conversions of the Model 1842 using the Merrill system.

Merrill Breech Loading US Harpers Ferry Model 1842 Rifle Musket

Rare Merrill Breech Loading Conversion U.S. Harpers Ferry Model 1842 Percussion Rifled Musket with BayonetOnly 100 each of the Model 1842 muskets, Model 1841 "Mississippi" rifles, and Model 1847 cavalry musketoons were reportedly converted using James H. Merrill's breech loading system c...

www.rockislandauction.com

View attachment 518756

James Merrill of Baltimore had his hands in several Civil War era firearms – rifles built from scratch, conversions of the Jenks carbines, and also conversions of 1841 Mississippi rifles done by the Harpers Ferry Arsenal. Merrill's conversion involved a knee-joint type lever which could be opened to allow loading of a rifle from the breech. The system was relatively simple, and it was one of three (the others were the Lindner and Montstorm) made in small numbers for testing by Harpers Ferry. It appears that 300 Merrill conversions were done, 100 each of the 1841 Mississippi Rifle, 1842 musket, and 1847 musketoon.

Merrill Breechloading Conversion of the 1841 Mississippi Rifle

www.forgottenweapons.com

 

[Trooper "D"]

Africa was the dumping ground for obsolete firearms since the early 18th century. European policies deliberately pointed the sale of nearly garbage arms to African nations to keep military competition low. This is turn led to poor musket training and marksmanship in African nations, and over-reliance on traditional weapon systems. All of which made for feeble militaries when the Europeans came knocking at the door in the late 19th century.

The slave trade was fueled by the arms trade. Weapons for slaves. The balance of power was upturned when those with the guns used them to conquer and then enslave their tribal neighbors. When the slave trade was cut back by the end of the Atlantic Trade the power equilibrium balanced out since no new firearms were being imported by trade. I'm sure these trade guns were less then reliable. Nothing like the North American trade relations and quality. Probably little to no military grade muskets with bayonets. And of course, without proper ammunition supplies, muskets turn into clubs.

 

[R. Porter]

Zulu shotgun.

 

[yulzari]

I have heard an interesting explanation of why some of these have brass breach blocks - do you know the truth?

Just noticed this post.

There is a story that the 'brass' (actually bronze) breech blocks were made when Paris was besieged and were cast from church bells as they could not get the iron forgings. The truth is that, following Sedan in the 1870 War, the French National Government was desperate for arms and sought production from smaller manufacturers. Some were too small to have the forging ability to make forged iron breech blocks so they cast them in bronze. Looks pretty, and adequate if not abused, but not as strong as the iron ones and more likely to stretch if overpowered. The same reason was behind the Confederate bronze frames for copy Colt revolvers so beloved of modern Italian reproducers which have the same weakness of stretching with strong loads.

 

[Old Soldier]

One of the interesting facts i dug up some time ago was that the Belgian gunmakers in Liege continued to make the Colt Navy and Pocket revolvers well into the 20th century. They had a lucrative market in Turkey. These were preferred because of the availability of black powder and caps - and the difficulty of getting brass cartidges of any type in that area. Production ceased in 1914 as the Germans invaded.

With that in mind, the sale/trade of these older style weapons to Africa can be assessed on the availability of ammunition. Black powder was relatively common hence the survival of flintlock weapons there. These were not for national armies, but for what we would call 'sporting' purposes - hunting was nothing to do with sport in many parts of Africa but more survival. No, the weapons traded were not of the highest quality, but were good enough, and most were straight from the gunmaker, not second hand.

Most were designed with European minds and materials which often did not suit the climate in Africa and local repairs were not done in workshops so many are in a poor state today. The European powers were organising defence along European lines from Day 1, mostly with good surplus arms from their armies - the older guns. The only major downgrading was by the Brits in India after the Mutiny - no rifles allowed. There are plenty of GOOD weapons seen in older photos, but usually to do with chiefs and, of course, the colonists.

Effectiveness of older weapons - Remember that troops in Afghanistan were treated to fire from locally-made Enfield P53s, Sniders and Martini-Henrys at over 1,000 yards and often encountered return fire from jezail flintlocks.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Just noticed this post.

There is a story that the 'brass' (actually bronze) breech blocks were made when Paris was besieged and were cast from church bells as they could not get the iron forgings. The truth is that, following Sedan in the 1870 War, the French National Government was desperate for arms and sought production from smaller manufacturers. Some were too small to have the forging ability to make forged iron breech blocks so they cast them in bronze. Looks pretty, and adequate if not abused, but not as strong as the iron ones and more likely to stretch if overpowered. The same reason was behind the Confederate bronze frames for copy Colt revolvers so beloved of modern Italian reproducers which have the same weakness of stretching with strong loads.

I like the first explanation, although I think your second is more likely true

 

[R. Porter]

Apparently, Native Americans preferred flintlock systems after the introduction of percussion because caps were hard to come by and they could find their own flint sources. When cartridge ammunition was developed, they held onto flintlock and percussion. Part of that might have been difficulty in obtaining cartridges but also there was probably an effort to keep them using older technology that lacked the firepower of revolvers and repeating rifles. The hardships Native Americans subjected their firearms to meant that simpler was better and lasted longer, but they could be effective with more modern models. This was probably similar to the way firearms were introduced to other native populations whose people were being exploited and resources appropriated. This would ensure that obsolete weapons would be used by most native opponents if a population decided to resist such treatment.

 

[R. Porter]

I believe this is a jezail, not positive. It doesn't have a flintlock, but it does appear to have a mount for a bipod and looks to maybe fire hexagonal bullets. It's missing a bunch of tacks and a number of decorative metal bands.

 

[Story]

Many Civil War firearms were converted to cartridge. Here is just one example of mine, Bridesburg: View attachment 518761

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but yours is also a .58 Rimfire.