Thoughts on Old Rosy.

As @OldReliable1862 has pointed out in his thread opinions of Braxton Bragg's generalship have improved immensely since the release of Earl Hess' work. I've been wondering how will impact viewpoints of Rosecrans? If we now consider Bragg a good commander does it make Rosecrans victories at Stones River-Tullahoma Campaign more impressive and his defeat at Chickamauga more justifiable? I'd be interested to hear what @David Moore thinks on this topic.
 
As @OldReliable1862 has pointed out in his thread opinions of Braxton Bragg's generalship have improved immensely since the release of Earl Hess' work. I've been wondering how will impact viewpoints of Rosecrans? If we now consider Bragg a good commander does it make Rosecrans victories at Stones River-Tullahoma Campaign more impressive and his defeat at Chickamauga more justifiable? I'd be interested to hear what @David Moore thinks on this topic.
Rosecrans in the 19th century was considered an important and even great general. It is in the 20th century that he fell into obscurity and even derision. However anyone who has studied deeply the battles and campaigns of Rosecrans will discover why he was rated so highly.
The 20th century was in many ways the Grant century in Union CW scholarship. It was also the Lee century on the Confederate side. It really was the eastern theater century. Therefore If Lee was great so was the man who took his surrender. If Grant was great so too was the man who fought him to almost his last man.
There are those now who want to elevate Grant alone as not just the great figure of the CW but one of the great figures in all US history. This would have surprised most of those who lived in the 19th century.
Much has been written recently on the western Theater, its generals and its soldiers. The majority opinion has been favorable. The task is to read and read objectively.
 
There are those now who want to elevate Grant alone as not just the great figure of the CW but one of the great figures in all US history. This would have surprised most of those who lived in the 19th century.
That is a questionable opinion.

Here is Teddy Roosevelt, who certainly lived much of his life in the 19th century:
"Yet as the generations slip away, as the dust of conflict settles, and as through the clearing air we look back with keener wisdom into the nation's past, mightiest among the mighty dead loom the three great figures of Washington, Lincoln, and Grant. There are great men also in the second rank; for in any gallery of merely national heroes Franklin and Hamilton, Jefferson and Jackson, would surely have their place. But these three greatest men have taken their place among the great men of all nations, the great men of all time. They stood supreme in the two great crises of our history, on the two great occasions when we stood in the van of all humanity and struck the most effective blows that have ever been struck for the cause of human freedom under the law, for that spirit of orderly liberty which must stand at the base of every wise movement to secure to each man his rights, and to guard each from being wronged by his fellows."

But perhaps it would be better to stay focused on Rosecrans in a Rosecrans thread.
 
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JD Cox’s Reminiscences was published in 1900. Rosecrans and almost every other prominent figure in the CW was dead by then. Cox himself would die that year. Any point about Rosecrans based on that book alone is pretty weak. Cox was not at Chickamauga. Deep scholarship isn’t defined by what can be found for free searching the internet.

I’ve read Cozzen's, all of Powell’s works. Done numerous Battlefield walks with Powell and Jim Ogden. Read Robertson’s first Volume. So, I'm not using Google for my Observations.

Bragg vacates Chattanooga on the 8th, 21st corps enters Chattanooga on the 9th. So Rosecrans has Chattanooga on the 9th. He had the option to consolidated his forces there on the 9th. Chattanooga is not his major objective. Destroying the AOT and occupying Atlanta by the winter of 63 is. So a lot of things happened during this 11 days. At the end of it, the AOC is in Chattanooga after 17K casualties, lost all of its Hospitals with 2.5K injured and 52 surgeons, lost 40 artillery pieces, as I remember, and is in a Siege Position. That is a far cry from destroying the AOT and marching toward Atlanta. If Rosecrans had of stopped at Chattanooga on the 9th, he would probably still of been Sacked. This is a complicated Battle, and most don't give it enough credit or understanding.

Dana probably did the most damage to Rosecrans. However he was a pawn in this game.

Rosecrans was not a bad General. He was innovative. He had Telegraph on the battlefield at Chickamauga. He developed, Wilder and Lilly with their mobile forces, no one else had at the time. He had more repeating rifles than anyone else.

The Federals will recover from this with Time and Resources. However, Chickamauga was a Loss.
 
I’ve read Cozzen's, all of Powell’s works. Done numerous Battlefield walks with Powell and Jim Ogden. Read Robertson’s first Volume. So, I'm not using Google for my Observations.

Bragg vacates Chattanooga on the 8th, 21st corps enters Chattanooga on the 9th. So Rosecrans has Chattanooga on the 9th. He had the option to consolidated his forces there on the 9th. Chattanooga is not his major objective. Destroying the AOT and occupying Atlanta by the winter of 63 is. So a lot of things happened during this 11 days. At the end of it, the AOC is in Chattanooga after 17K casualties, lost all of its Hospitals with 2.5K injured and 52 surgeons, lost 40 artillery pieces, as I remember, and is in a Siege Position. That is a far cry from destroying the AOT and marching toward Atlanta. If Rosecrans had of stopped at Chattanooga on the 9th, he would probably still of been Sacked. This is a complicated Battle, and most don't give it enough credit or understanding.

Dana probably did the most damage to Rosecrans. However he was a pawn in this game.

Rosecrans was not a bad General. He was innovative. He had Telegraph on the battlefield at Chickamauga. He developed, Wilder and Lilly with their mobile forces, no one else had at the time. He had more repeating rifles than anyone else.

The Federals will recover from this with Time and Resources. However, Chickamauga was a Loss.
When you say Rosecrans could have had Chattanooga on the ninth what do you mean? How much of his army was in Chattanooga?
What caused Bragg to evacuate Chattanooga? Was it not the perceived threat to his rear? What caused him to fear that? Was it not that almost all of Rosecrans’ army was outside Chattanooga and threatening Bragg from various points?
If however Rosecrans had been able to get into Chattanooga around Sept 9th then what?
Longstreet’s and other troops were on their way to the Chattanooga area. What would they have done?
What would or could Rosecrans have done? Would there have been a siege? Would there have been a battle? Would Bragg have given up Chattanooga without a fight?
What would have constituted a Union victory? The complete destruction of Bragg? Would Rosecrans have continued in to Atlanta? Or would he have retreated into Chattanooga with his wounded army and awaited reinforcements ? How different is that from what actually happened?

I agree that Dana was a part of someone else’s plan but whose? Garfield said it was “political leaders.”

Rosecrans was more than a not bad general. There’s a reason why Dave Powell has an essay entitled “Incubator of Innovation” in regard to Rosecrans’ army. He also won victories in other places than Tennessee. Cozzens refers to him as a “genius.”
 
Theodore Roosevelt’s comments on Washington, Lincoln and Grant were delivered in a speech at Galena Illinois (where Grant was living when the War broke out) in 1900. It probably was part of the presidential election campaign of that year. I think his comments hardly count as deep CW scholarship. Indeed for TR not to have mentioned USG in the latter’s hometown would have been foolish and bad politics. It seems to me TR’s speech is a perfect example of using history to bolster one’s current political view. Here’s a link to the whole speech: https://www.bartleby.com/58/index.html
 
For anyone wanting to know more about Grant's reputation in the 19th, 20th, or 21st century, Joan Waugh wrote an excellent book,
U. S. Grant: American Hero, American Myth.

But this thread is about Rosecrans.
 
When you say Rosecrans could have had Chattanooga on the ninth what do you mean? How much of his army was in Chattanooga?
What caused Bragg to evacuate Chattanooga? Was it not the perceived threat to his rear? What caused him to fear that? Was it not that almost all of Rosecrans’ army was outside Chattanooga and threatening Bragg from various points?
If however Rosecrans had been able to get into Chattanooga around Sept 9th then what?
Longstreet’s and other troops were on their way to the Chattanooga area. What would they have done?
What would or could Rosecrans have done? Would there have been a siege? Would there have been a battle? Would Bragg have given up Chattanooga without a fight?
What would have constituted a Union victory? The complete destruction of Bragg? Would Rosecrans have continued in to Atlanta? Or would he have retreated into Chattanooga with his wounded army and awaited reinforcements ? How different is that from what actually happened?

I agree that Dana was a part of someone else’s plan but whose? Garfield said it was “political leaders.”

Rosecrans was more than a not bad general. There’s a reason why Dave Powell has an essay entitled “Incubator of Innovation” in regard to Rosecrans’ army. He also won victories in other places than Tennessee. Cozzens refers to him as a “genius.”


21st Corps was in Chattanooga of the 9th. Rosecrans had the option of bringing his other 2 Corps into Chattanooga. The approaches from the West were clear. Thomas advised Rosecrans to do this. Rosecrans supply lines were from the West. Braggs Siege, would of been from the South, as it was after Chickamauga. Braggs supply was from the South. Rosecrans would of had far more supplies and men to maintain his position, until his supply lines could be developed. It would of been far different than what happened after Chickamauga. It would be a big question how long the Confederates could of held their position. They have limited mobility. Rosecrans would of been in a Fortified Position, with resources coming the the Confederates could only dream of.

Rosecrans made the decision, that Bragg was demoralized, weakened and would not fight. His objective was to get far enough South of Bragg, to cut him off from his supply lines, and make him fight. Destroy his Army, and then march to Atlanta. Lincoln and Stanton wanted a military victory. They wanted Confederate Armys off the field. Lincoln and Stanton were less than pleased with the Tullahoma campaign which resulted gaining territory but no defeat of a Confederate Army. If Rosecrans had of stopped at Chattanooga, a battle would probably have been postponed until Spring. He had enough pressure on him, not to delay a fight. There would of been disadvantages to postpone a battle until spring. All of this, would probably gotten Rosecrans Sacked.

Ultimate Rosecrans is going to discover Bragg is maneuvering for an Offensive Advantage, and being reinforced. Bragg gets advantages, but is unable to take advantage of them. So, Chickamauga happens. Longstreet comes, ignores Braggs orders, makes an impact. Confederates want to turn the Federals Left Flank and destroy the AOC. Instead they turn the Federals Right Flank, they live another day.

Greeley fires Dana, because he is a Stanton, apologist. He winds up on Stanton's Staff. Go figure. A lot of stuff happened between the Tullahoma campaign and Chickamauga. Rosecrans has conflict with Lincoln and Stanton. Grant had a conflict with Rosecrans when they were in Mississippi. Lot of Politics involved in getting rid of a General. Garfield is involved in some of this. Dana probably gets credit for doing the most damage. Rosecrans being a Democrat and Catholic, don't help him. Republicans take a dim view of Democrats during this period.

Rosecrans had some issues. It was a long campaign. Preparations actually start in July, after Tullahoma. Rosecrans and Bragg play tag for week before Chickamauga. There is too much in play to reduce it to a few paragraphs.

I havn't bashed Rosecrans. I said he lost the Battle. Many take the position, that somehow the Federals won Chickamauga. They did Not. Powell calls the Confederate Victory a Barren one. That is on the Confederates. The Federals have a lot to do with making it a Barren Victory. But they had a lot of help, mainly from Bragg. I have to giggle when people try to rehabilitate Bragg.

This was a long, complicated campaign. Per David Powell, actually hear him say this in a conversation. What Rosecrans achieved, just to get to Chattanooga was amazing. Most people don't know this Story.
 
21st Corps was in Chattanooga of the 9th. Rosecrans had the option of bringing his other 2 Corps into Chattanooga. The approaches from the West were clear. Thomas advised Rosecrans to do this. Rosecrans supply lines were from the West. Braggs Siege, would of been from the South, as it was after Chickamauga. Braggs supply was from the South. Rosecrans would of had far more supplies and men to maintain his position, until his supply lines could be developed. It would of been far different than what happened after Chickamauga. It would be a big question how long the Confederates could of held their position. They have limited mobility. Rosecrans would of been in a Fortified Position, with resources coming the the Confederates could only dream of.

Rosecrans made the decision, that Bragg was demoralized, weakened and would not fight. His objective was to get far enough South of Bragg, to cut him off from his supply lines, and make him fight. Destroy his Army, and then march to Atlanta. Lincoln and Stanton wanted a military victory. They wanted Confederate Armys off the field. Lincoln and Stanton were less than pleased with the Tullahoma campaign which resulted gaining territory but no defeat of a Confederate Army. If Rosecrans had of stopped at Chattanooga, a battle would probably have been postponed until Spring. He had enough pressure on him, not to delay a fight. There would of been disadvantages to postpone a battle until spring. All of this, would probably gotten Rosecrans Sacked.

Ultimate Rosecrans is going to discover Bragg is maneuvering for an Offensive Advantage, and being reinforced. Bragg gets advantages, but is unable to take advantage of them. So, Chickamauga happens. Longstreet comes, ignores Braggs orders, makes an impact. Confederates want to turn the Federals Left Flank and destroy the AOC. Instead they turn the Federals Right Flank, they live another day.

Greeley fires Dana, because he is a Stanton, apologist. He winds up on Stanton's Staff. Go figure. A lot of stuff happened between the Tullahoma campaign and Chickamauga. Rosecrans has conflict with Lincoln and Stanton. Grant had a conflict with Rosecrans when they were in Mississippi. Lot of Politics involved in getting rid of a General. Garfield is involved in some of this. Dana probably gets credit for doing the most damage. Rosecrans being a Democrat and Catholic, don't help him. Republicans take a dim view of Democrats during this period.

Rosecrans had some issues. It was a long campaign. Preparations actually start in July, after Tullahoma. Rosecrans and Bragg play tag for week before Chickamauga. There is too much in play to reduce it to a few paragraphs.

I havn't bashed Rosecrans. I said he lost the Battle. Many take the position, that somehow the Federals won Chickamauga. They did Not. Powell calls the Confederate Victory a Barren one. That is on the Confederates. The Federals have a lot to do with making it a Barren Victory. But they had a lot of help, mainly from Bragg. I have to giggle when people try to rehabilitate Bragg.

This was a long, complicated campaign. Per David Powell, actually hear him say this in a conversation. What Rosecrans achieved, just to get to Chattanooga was amazing. Most people don't know this Story.
First of all let me say I think you’ve been fairer to Rosecrans than many on this site. That means you’ve done more reading than most.
Only George Wagner’s brigade stayed in Chattanooga after Sept 9. The rest of the XXI Corps continued in pursuit of Bragg.
The matter of Thomas telling Rosecrans to concentrate in Chattanooga is not in the OR. The source is Thomas Van Horne’s postwar book. In the Opdycke papers there is a letter written by Van Horne in which he says Thomas told him that Rosecrans told Thomas that Washington wanted more from him than a consolidation at Chattanooga. All this is plausible but not independently documented.
Rosecrans sent ColJohn Sanderson and Gen Rousseau to Washington with a plan endorsed by several northern governors to provide relief troops to Rosecrans. Stanton nixed the plan.
Burnside never cooperated in the way Rosecrans expected. His presence would have had a positive impact.
I doubt a battle for Chattanooga would have been postponed until spring. Longstreet would have been recalled to Virginia by then. Grant and Sherman's troops could not have been kept away from the Chattanooga theater until spring. The more conspirational interpretation would be that Rosecrans would have to be removed before troops would be sent to Chattanooga. Recall Garfield said political leaders were “not unwilling” to see evil befall Rosecrans.
Garfield was more loyal to Rosecrans than not. He gave a speech in Congress defending and praising him and even supported him for VP on the ticket with Lincoln in 1864.
Being a Democrat hurt Rosecrans and other generals . This shouldn’t surprise us. There was the post war political world that needed to be planned.
Surprisingly I have found (and I’ve studied this for over 25 years) that his religion wasn’t a problem during the war. There were Catholic soldiers in the Union army and large Catholic populations in northern cities particularly Cincinnati. Republicans wouldn’t like any Democrat general regardless of his religion.
I wouldn’t say Rosecrans played tag after Tullahoma. He had to find a way to cross several mountains (not hills) and cross the Tennessee River to force Bragg out of Chattanooga. If you’ve never been to that area you should visit it. Without knowing the terrain one can’t appreciate what was accomplished.
Later I will post on this thread an assessment of Rosecrans made by a leading Republican newspaper after he was relived in 1863. Any discussion of him needs to start with the assumption that by the end of 1863 he was considered one of the very best and most successful generals in the war.
 
When considered in his totality, Rosecrans was a pretty good commander, who was able to maneuver and outfight Bragg and the AOT all the way through Tennessee and into northern Georgia. Unfortunately, he will be mostly known and recognized for the Chickamauga blunder and defeat. I'm wondering how much of his downfall also resulted from a perception that he had rubbed Grant the wrong way after the battle of Corinth, when Grant faulted Rosecrans for not strongly pursuing the defeated forces of Earl Van Dorn.
 
First of all let me say I think you’ve been fairer to Rosecrans than many on this site. That means you’ve done more reading than most.
Only George Wagner’s brigade stayed in Chattanooga after Sept 9. The rest of the XXI Corps continued in pursuit of Bragg.
The matter of Thomas telling Rosecrans to concentrate in Chattanooga is not in the OR. The source is Thomas Van Horne’s postwar book. In the Opdycke papers there is a letter written by Van Horne in which he says Thomas told him that Rosecrans told Thomas that Washington wanted more from him than a consolidation at Chattanooga. All this is plausible but not independently documented.
Rosecrans sent ColJohn Sanderson and Gen Rousseau to Washington with a plan endorsed by several northern governors to provide relief troops to Rosecrans. Stanton nixed the plan.
Burnside never cooperated in the way Rosecrans expected. His presence would have had a positive impact.
I doubt a battle for Chattanooga would have been postponed until spring. Longstreet would have been recalled to Virginia by then. Grant and Sherman's troops could not have been kept away from the Chattanooga theater until spring. The more conspirational interpretation would be that Rosecrans would have to be removed before troops would be sent to Chattanooga. Recall Garfield said political leaders were “not unwilling” to see evil befall Rosecrans.
Garfield was more loyal to Rosecrans than not. He gave a speech in Congress defending and praising him and even supported him for VP on the ticket with Lincoln in 1864.
Being a Democrat hurt Rosecrans and other generals . This shouldn’t surprise us. There was the post war political world that needed to be planned.
Surprisingly I have found (and I’ve studied this for over 25 years) that his religion wasn’t a problem during the war. There were Catholic soldiers in the Union army and large Catholic populations in northern cities particularly Cincinnati. Republicans wouldn’t like any Democrat general regardless of his religion.
I wouldn’t say Rosecrans played tag after Tullahoma. He had to find a way to cross several mountains (not hills) and cross the Tennessee River to force Bragg out of Chattanooga. If you’ve never been to that area you should visit it. Without knowing the terrain one can’t appreciate what was accomplished.
Later I will post on this thread an assessment of Rosecrans made by a leading Republican newspaper after he was relived in 1863. Any discussion of him needs to start with the assumption that by the end of 1863 he was considered one of the very best and most successful generals in the war.

I said Rosecrans played tag with Bragg, after he went in pursuit mode. Had 21st Corps to leave Chattanooga and head south toward Ringgold. Yes only a couple of Brigades remained in Chattanooga. Rosecrans had the option of having the 20th and 14th Corps fall back to the west side of Lookout Mtn and coming into Chattanooga. Possession without a Battle.

Dr Glenn Robertson gets into the approaches of Burnside and Rosy. Rosy will use Burnside, deflecting where Rosecrans will come in, North or South. But Rosecrans don’t want to link with Burnside because Burnside our ranks him. He is afraid his operation might be jeopardized by that. Lincoln calls on Burnside on the 21st, he is in Jonesboro. Several days ride away.

If Rosecrans had of stayed in Chattanooga. It is a big, what if. Longstreet nor the troops from Mississippi brought wagons or even their animals. Some officers had them, many not. AOT don’t have the capability to get further than 12 miles from the RR. Bragg has removed his pontoons to Calhoun, so they can’t cross the TN River. Rosecrans would of been dug in. Don’t look too promising for the Confederates.
 
When considered in his totality, Rosecrans was a pretty good commander, who was able to maneuver and outfight Bragg and the AOT all the way through Tennessee and into northern Georgia. Unfortunately, he will be mostly known and recognized for the Chickamauga blunder and defeat. I'm wondering how much of his downfall also resulted from a perception that he had rubbed Grant the wrong way after the battle of Corinth, when Grant faulted Rosecrans for not strongly pursuing the defeated forces of Earl Van Dorn.
I think the friction with Grant did not cause his downfall. It only convinced Grant that he could not have Rosecrans as a subordinate.

I think the key to Rosecrans downfall is that by the time of Chickamauga, his superiors in Washington had tired of his attitude and he had no strong advocates left other than Chase. Rosecrans had delayed going on the offensive in the spring despite repeated requests from Washington. He had asked Lincoln, as a "personal favor," to backdate his date of rank to the point that he would be the senior major general in the west, even over Grant. His never-ending demands for more resources had grated on Halleck. The tone of his messages to Washington was often haughty and disrespectful.

So when Chickamauga happened, he just didn't have many friends left in Washington to go to bat for him.
 
I doubt a battle for Chattanooga would have been postponed until spring. Longstreet would have been recalled to Virginia by then.

An important point. Presumably Longstreet and his troops were taken away from the ANV to conduct some decisive action.

If Rosecrans had remained around Chattanooga, the Confederates would be under pressure to attack once all of Longstreet's two divisions arrived. What might the outcome of that be? Logistics could be a critical issue for the Confederates on the advance.
 
Rosecrans divided his army in order to force Bragg out of Chattanooga. He was trying to gather his army back together when the battle took place. Chickamauga can be seen as a race and fight to see who will get into Chattanooga first. How could Rosecrans have forced Bragg to evacuate without dividing his army and crossing Lookout Mtn? The War Dept was ignorant of Longstreet’s move south even at one point telling Rosecrans that Bragg was reinforcing Lee.
 
An important point. Presumably Longstreet and his troops were taken away from the ANV to conduct some decisive action.

If Rosecrans had remained around Chattanooga, the Confederates would be under pressure to attack once all of Longstreet's two divisions arrived. What might the outcome of that be? Logistics could be a critical issue for the Confederates on the advance.
Really Rosecrans should have reenforced before Chickamauga not after. After Vicksburg parts of Grant’s army could have been sent to Tennessee.
 
When considered in his totality, Rosecrans was a pretty good commander, who was able to maneuver and outfight Bragg and the AOT all the way through Tennessee and into northern Georgia. Unfortunately, he will be mostly known and recognized for the Chickamauga blunder and defeat. I'm wondering how much of his downfall also resulted from a perception that he had rubbed Grant the wrong way after the battle of Corinth, when Grant faulted Rosecrans for not strongly pursuing the defeated forces of Earl Van Dorn.
He will be remembered solely for Chickamauga only if that is what Grant and Sherman biographers and survey historians write about him and those are most read books. Those who delve more deeply into Rosecrans’ campaigns are generally supportive of him. Mississippi in 1862 is key especially after the battle of Iuka.
 
Rosecrans divided his army in order to force Bragg out of Chattanooga. He was trying to gather his army back together when the battle took place. Chickamauga can be seen as a race and fight to see who will get into Chattanooga first. How could Rosecrans have forced Bragg to evacuate without dividing his army and crossing Lookout Mtn? The War Dept was ignorant of Longstreet’s move south even at one point telling Rosecrans that Bragg was reinforcing Lee.


Rosecrans sent the 20th Corps to cross Lookout Mountain 40 miles below Chattanooga. He was trying to get south of Bragg, anticipating his retreat. He sends the 21st Corps to McMinnville, faking a move to Knoxville. And he sends Minty and a gun from Lillys mobile force, to demonstrate north of Chattanooga. Trying to make Bragg think he is going to hook up with Burnside and come in from the North. 21st Corps, comes into Chattanooga on the 9th from the West. Wauchatchie Pike, actually. The 14th Corps crosses Lookout Mtn at Trenton about 14 miles south of Chattanooga. So, he purposely split his Army. Logistics, and saving time crossing Sand, and Lookout Mtns. It takes about a day to get up one side and another day to get down the other. 2 Mtns between Bridgeport and Chattanooga. 21st Corps goes around the North Face of Lookout. So, they dont go up and over it.

Bragg stays in Chattanooga, until he can confirm where Rosecrans is. He finally gets intel, the 14th Corps is on top of Lookout headed for Stephens Gap. He vacates the City, in two lines, one going to Lafayette, the other headed to Ringgold.

Bragg vacates the city, and still don't know, Longstreet is coming. This is on the 8th. He finds out in a few days. Hood gets here on the 18th. Longstreet of the battlefield about 11pm on the 19th.
 
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