Sickles at Gettysburg

[wilber6150]

But if your looking to be safe from artillary that could be situated on a ridge wouldnt it be safer to be on hills even higher then that ridge?

 

[Rob9641]

But if your looking to be safe from artillary that could be situated on a ridge wouldnt it be safer to be on hills even higher then that ridge?

Yes, but before you get to Little Round Top, between LRT and Cemetery Ridge, the ground dips low and the ridge at Emmitsburg Road is actually higher than this portion of the line would have been. Sickles was trying to put his men on the the high ground and circle them back around to LRT, avoiding the low area, but he didn't have enough men.

 

[whitworth]

The Deafening Silence

I've seen many answers, pro and con, on Sickles decisions at Gettysburg. But I never see the observation that Sickles never commanded a corps in the Army of the Potomac again. Other generals came back to command after losing an arm or leg. But not Sickles.

 

[Rob9641]

The Deafening Silence

I've seen many answers, pro and con, on Sickles decisions at Gettysburg. But I never see the observation that Sickles never commanded a corps in the Army of the Potomac again. Other generals came back to command after losing an arm or leg. But not Sickles.

I think he actually spent a lot more time politicking and running to New York and back than he did commanding anyway. Dan was in it for himself - got his wound and left and nobody missed him. I do think we have to credit him, tho, for his efforts at saving the Gettysburg battlefield, even if there's a lot of evidence he saved it as a monument to himself, and I really doubt he had no regard at all for his men. He cared, he just cared about Dan Sickles more.

 

[wilber6150]

The Deafening Silence

I've seen many answers, pro and con, on Sickles decisions at Gettysburg. But I never see the observation that Sickles never commanded a corps in the Army of the Potomac again. Other generals came back to command after losing an arm or leg. But not Sickles.

I think he got what he wanted, the fame of being a Corps commander in a major victory and didnt need to do more to boost his personal ambitions..

 

[meade21]

Sickles had a lot of testicular fortitude, I will give him that, but I can't get past the fact that he disobeyed direct orders by his commanding general. While there is some debate about whether or not he actually helped in taking the brunt of Longstreet's attack, it is clear, that this move hampered the AOP in the days to come, including their chase of Lee back to Virginia. With Meade having to send the V Corps and elements of the VI Corps to manage Sickles gaff, it limited the offensive capability of Meade on the evening of July 3 and on July 4.

If he had stayed where he was he would have raked Longstreet's flank with fire and it would have been an easier line to reinforce and defend. The one thing I can't stand about Sickles is his devious way of claiming that he didn't know where Meade wanted him. Personally, I don't buy it for a second. He knew exactly where he was supposed to be.

 

[OpnCoronet]

It may be that the efficacy of Sickles' movement depends more upon Lee's orders and intent, than those of Meade.

 

[ole]

Discretionary orders are just that. If you find the position to be untenable, or if you cannot take that hill, do what you figure will work. In Meade's assignment to Sickles Corps, it was to take up the gap anchored by Little Round Top and stay there. At what point is discretionary an option? Sickles thought that he was best served by just going over there. We know that it was not a good decision, but do we know that he thought it was?

 

[TDMD]

Discretionary orders are just that. If you find the position to be untenable, or if you cannot take that hill, do what you figure will work. In Meade's assignment to Sickles Corps, it was to take up the gap anchored by Little Round Top and stay there. At what point is discretionary an option? Sickles thought that he was best served by just going over there. We know that it was not a good decision, but do we know that he thought it was?

I remember an old Gettysburg Magazine article about Meade and his left flank (Issue #7, by Davis Downs). I recall that Sickles and the other six corps commanders each received a sketch of their deployment sectors. I believe that Sickles knew that he didn't want to stay where directed by the sketch, that he was, at best, stretching his freedom of command, and at worst outwardly disobeying his orders. In fact, he had his men tear down fences fronting their proposed line early in the morning of July 2, so he knew quite early what he wanted to do and he did it.

When Meade rode up to him just prior to the attack and asked him what he thought he was doing, Sickles responded by saying something to the effect of 'Well, I can move back.' Meade responded by saying 'I wished to God you could, but it doesn't look like the Rebels will let you. I think he realized, at least by that point his was a bad idea. But he had other hints such as what Henry Hunt had told him earlier.

 

[TDMD]

Much has been written about Sickles's advance to high ground from Cemetery Ridge on the 2nd day. Leaving an ordered position which seemed to put his Corps in a poor position were his artillery was ineffective and his infantry was vulnerable. Meade may have been toying with the idea of leaving the field altogether. Some say that Sickles's sacrifice of his Corps saved the Army and Gettysburg. What would you have done?

http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/?p=3864

By the morning of July 2, Meade was no longer entertaining the idea of leaving the field, given what Hancock and Howard had told him when he arrived around midnight of July 1/2. Only in case of an emergency, at that point, was Meade going to fall back to Pipe Creek. The story of Meade wanting to leave the field was propagated by Sickles and his cronies after the battle to put himself on a pedestal. Just days after the battle, Sickles 'poisoned the well' (in Dave Powell's words) by managing to get into Lincoln's ear while recovering.

 

[TDMD]

I see you linked Jim Hessler's Gburg daily series in your post. If you have the chance, his book is an excellent read and really puts Sickles role at Gettysburg into perspective. Based on the objective way Hessler examines Sickles actions as well as the information available to him and past experience he presents that Sickles actions on the 2nd day really were not as foolish or brazen as often presented.

A strong argument can be made that Sickles advance inadvertantly confused and delayed Longstreets attack and had he been in his original assigned position a breakthrough (whether it could be sustained is another story) of the cemetery ridge line might have occured. Although Sickles and his supporters may lose some credibility based on their politicking after the battle, and tactically Sickles may have erred in the manner in which he broke up and deployed his brigades, overall Sickles did perform well during the battle and really was not the incompetent he is often portrayed to be.

I disagree with the assertion that Sickles inadvertantly confused and delayed Longstreet's attack. I don't look at Sickles as an incompetent, but I think he was only thinking of Dan Sickles at the time. And being the politician that he was he had no compunction about lying to maintain his reputation. One thing he was, and Hessler can't really argue this - he was insubordinate.

In another thread in the Gettysburg I listed 13 reasons why what he did was a bad idea. We can't know the outcome of what he didn't do, but we do know thathe destroyed his corps, wrecked a couple divisions from two other corps, forced Meade to seriously compromise other sections of his line and forced units into the fight that were apparently intended as reserve for Meade. He unnecessarily created an emergency that almost resulted in a disaster if not for the bravery and tenacity of others. Also, I think of what he created as a glass jaw, rather than a real setback for Longstreet, given the results (2,000+ more casualties for the defenders than the attackers), Rebel units running right over the salient that Sickles created, artillery units being called in to plug gaps in Sickles line, needing to parcel out the only brigade he could (Burling's) as a reserve. I cn't really think of anything good that resulted from Sickles advance.

As far as GNMP rangers go, I'm with Eric Campbell and Scott Hartwig on this.

 

[Gettysburg Greg]

ha ha ha!

When I was at Gettysburg last year, you can see how Sickles might be worried about the terrain in front of the Round Tops, especially since the NPS has cleared the post battle woods from the area.

I agree that now that the NPS has cleared the area, it's pretty obvious why Sickles wanted to move forward. Whether it was right or wrong will be debated forever. I have a video driving along the Union line on Cemetery Ridge which begins at Sickles original position. For those who haven't seen it, this may give you some perspetive.

 

[meade21]

Whether it was right or wrong will be debated forever.

The reality is it was wrong. He totally disobeyed a direct order. Whether it was a good position or not doesn't matter at this point. There were good and bad aspects to BOTH positions. At the end of the day he still disobeyed orders and put the entire AOP in jeopardy.

 

[Dugger]

The reality is it was wrong. He totally disobeyed a direct order. Whether it was a good position or not doesn't matter at this point. There were good and bad aspects to BOTH positions. At the end of the day he still disobeyed orders and put the entire AOP in jeopardy.

With all due repect. Disobeying orders wreaked Lonsgtreet's attack. Yes Sickles....he lost most of his corps. Longsteet close in numbers. I playing devils advcoacte here. His disobediance resulted in the LARGEST death toll Lee ever took in the war. Did ya hear that!! Ever...period. Malvern Hill may have been more...correct me if I wrong. End of 2nd day....Lee had shot his wad and he was defeated. This is not rocket science. Understand,,,I am just playing a "what If" here. Do not think I am jumping to Sickles defense. The only way we would/could get definative on this is make Sickles take and hold the line he was ordered to do....he did not...need a time machine to ever resolve this one. Yes!

Disobeying orders is not always the wrong thing to do. von Paulus at Stalingrad did this...but he did it too late. Patton dissed a LOT of orders from IKE who had NEVER been in combat. SS/Einsatgruppen followed orders...get it! Ok...tired. "Dont follow leaders, and watch yer parking meters." Bob Dylan

 

[wilber6150]

But, the same result might have happened without losing a Union corps in the process if Sickles stayed in place and prepared a defensive position. He very nearly cost the Union the battle anyway after units from Culps hill had to be sent over to back him up..

 

[wilber6150]

I agree that now that the NPS has cleared the area, it's pretty obvious why Sickles wanted to move forward. Whether it was right or wrong will be debated forever. I have a video driving along the Union line on Cemetery Ridge which begins at Sickles original position. For those who haven't seen it, this may give you some perspetive.

Great videos thanks for creating and sharing them

 

[TDMD]

I agree that now that the NPS has cleared the area, it's pretty obvious why Sickles wanted to move forward. Whether it was right or wrong will be debated forever. I have a video driving along the Union line on Cemetery Ridge which begins at Sickles original position. For those who haven't seen it, this may give you some perspetive.

Dave Powell states in his article in Gettysburg Magazine that Sickles claimed that he was told to occupy a spot that was in a very low lying almost swampy area (where his HQ was at the first night). Dave goes on to state that, however was not where Meade had ordered him to be. He was to be back a bit. Sickles either earnestly believed that was where Meade wanted him, or he lied. The position he was ordered to was some thirty feet lower than the Peach Orchard, but not the deep valley that he claimed. Also, he was supposed to anchor his left on LRT, so that should make up for some of the other terrain.

 

[TDMD]

With all due repect. Disobeying orders wreaked Lonsgtreet's attack. Yes Sickles....he lost most of his corps. Longsteet close in numbers. I playing devils advcoacte here. His disobediance resulted in the LARGEST death toll Lee ever took in the war. Did ya hear that!! Ever...period. Malvern Hill may have been more...correct me if I wrong. End of 2nd day....Lee had shot his wad and he was defeated. This is not rocket science. Understand,,,I am just playing a "what If" here. Do not think I am jumping to Sickles defense. The only way we would/could get definative on this is make Sickles take and hold the line he was ordered to do....he did not...need a time machine to ever resolve this one. Yes!

Disobeying orders is not always the wrong thing to do. von Paulus at Stalingrad did this...but he did it too late. Patton dissed a LOT of orders from IKE who had NEVER been in combat. SS/Einsatgruppen followed orders...get it! Ok...tired. "Dont follow leaders, and watch yer parking meters." Bob Dylan

But staying put meant that he may have wrecked Longstreet's attack without wrecking his corps, a division of the Fifth and a division of the Second. Then there is the displacement of the Twelfth Corps and the needless use of the Sixth. Batteries had to be pulled out from the artillery reserve to help plug up holes in Sickles new line - all this to satisfy the discomfort of a subordinate general.

Plus - and I've posted this before - Longstreet suffered 2,000 fewer casualties than the Federals did on July 2. He had less than half of what Meade committed to his left.

By weakening his line, Meade gave Ewell a real opportunity to grab Culp's Hill that night.

Nothing Sickles did was worth the consequences from his advance.

 

[TDMD]

Certainly there is a little lattitude for orders between commanders, but Im thinking that lattitude is razor thin when it comes to placing your troops in a defensive postiion connected up with other Corps.. Look what a small gap in the defensive line did at Chickamagua.. I would have more sympathy for him if I could see proof of the efforts he took to find out from Meade where he was supposed to go...In my own opinion his Corps certainly would have suffered less if they were in positon on the round tops and had time to put up breast works then being chewed up piecemeal like they were...True, they wouldnt have suprised Longstreets troops as they did historically, but the jusry is till out on whether Lee actually thought the hills were occupied.. So it could be equally possible that Sickles Corps could have taken Longstreets on the flank as it started its advance perpendicular to the Emmitsburg rd..

Actually Sickles had his men tear down the fences that fronted the position that Meade ordered for him early on the morning of July 2.

 

[TDMD]

Apparently, he also consider the Meade position to be inadequate for his artillery... shooting up in elevation on moist or on "swamped" ground.

The swampy position is what Sickles told other people about where Meade ordered him. Either Sickles was lying, or he believed that he was supposed to occupy the ground on which his HQ stood on the night of July 1/2.