Sickles at Gettysburg

[K Hale]

I've heard Hancock was one of the biggest swearers in the Union army.

Just one more facet sadly left out of (at least the novel version of) Gods & Generals.

 

[K Hale]

If I remember my reading correctly when Hancock watched Sickles move out he said to someone not to worry he will soon be coming back. Hancock knew it was not a very smart thing to do.
We do many walks on this subject and the thread that is always the same especially with the present and former military people is that no matter what you think of the move there is no getting around the fact that he disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. He could of been arrested and court martialed for that alone.

I guess losing his leg was felt to be punishment enough!

As I recall, Porter Alexander thought Sickles moving into the Peach Orchard might have actually been an OK idea, from where he sat... I will have to consult the memoirs later.

EDIT: I should say, I believe he put in a caveat about it being carried out differently or better supported or the like... LOL

 

[diddyriddick]

If I remember my reading correctly when Hancock watched Sickles move out he said to someone not to worry he will soon be coming back. Hancock knew it was not a very smart thing to do.
We do many walks on this subject and the thread that is always the same especially with the present and former military people is that no matter what you think of the move there is no getting around the fact that he disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. He could of been arrested and court martialed for that alone.

I think you've hit it on the head, Judi. While Sickles' move forward might have been better for Sickles' corps, it was not better for the Army of the Potomac. As alluded earlier, Sickles flanks were way to exposed. One doesn't need to be Clausewitz to realize that a salient can't be a good thing.

IIRC, the only reason that Meade didn't cour-martial him was because the goggle-eyed snapping turtle felt sorry for Sickles. Meade would almost certainly have saved himself a great deal of later trouble if he had court-martialled Sickles.

 

[Nathanb1]

Just one more facet sadly left out of (at least the novel version of) Gods & Generals.

Thank goodness. From what I've read, I wouldn't be able to show it to the kids!

 

[101combatvet]

Actually, many get hung up on the orders issue. It is very much understood that any Commander and one of his rank had a certain amount of latitude to deviate from those orders..... how much so would be between Sickles and Meade. As it turns out the better position that Sickles picks turns out to be the point where the "Confederate offensive that was intended to cause the collapse of the Union line" started. If Sickles would have stayed in the position Meade assigned to him it may have ended in a bigger disaster..... but that is a matter of opinion since we can only ponder. If the Confederates would not have attacked there.... little would have been known of Sickles move.

If I remember my reading correctly when Hancock watched Sickles move out he said to someone not to worry he will soon be coming back. Hancock knew it was not a very smart thing to do.
We do many walks on this subject and the thread that is always the same especially with the present and former military people is that no matter what you think of the move there is no getting around the fact that he disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. He could of been arrested and court martialed for that alone.

 

[wilber6150]

Actually, many get hung up on the orders issue. It is very much understood that any Commander and one of his rank had a certain amount of latitude to deviate from those orders..... how much so would be between Sickles and Meade. As it turns out the better position that Sickles picks turns out to be the point where the "Confederate offensive that was intended to cause the collapse of the Union line" started. If Sickles would have stayed in the position Meade assigned to him it may have ended in a bigger disaster..... but that is a matter of opinion since we can only ponder. If the Confederates would not have attacked there.... little would have been known of Sickles move.

Certainly there is a little lattitude for orders between commanders, but Im thinking that lattitude is razor thin when it comes to placing your troops in a defensive postiion connected up with other Corps.. Look what a small gap in the defensive line did at Chickamagua.. I would have more sympathy for him if I could see proof of the efforts he took to find out from Meade where he was supposed to go...In my own opinion his Corps certainly would have suffered less if they were in positon on the round tops and had time to put up breast works then being chewed up piecemeal like they were...True, they wouldnt have suprised Longstreets troops as they did historically, but the jusry is till out on whether Lee actually thought the hills were occupied.. So it could be equally possible that Sickles Corps could have taken Longstreets on the flank as it started its advance perpendicular to the Emmitsburg rd..

 

[wilber6150]

I suddenly thought Hancock would probably have loved to make a "Pop" Sickles....I'll leave the rest to your imagination...

Pop sickle thanks for the chuckle...

 

[Nathanb1]

Certainly there is a little lattitude for orders between commanders, but Im thinking that lattitude is razor thin when it comes to placing your troops in a defensive postiion connected up with other Corps.. Look what a small gap in the defensive line did at Chickamagua.. I would have more sympathy for him if I could see proof of the efforts he took to find out from Meade where he was supposed to go...In my own opinion his Corps certainly would have suffered less if they were in positon on the round tops and had time to put up breast works then being chewed up piecemeal like they were...True, they wouldnt have suprised Longstreets troops as they did historically, but the jusry is till out on whether Lee actually thought the hills were occupied.. So it could be equally possible that Sickles Corps could have taken Longstreets on the flank as it started its advance perpendicular to the Emmitsburg rd..

I know a lot of people don't think Little Round Top was a big deal--but after having been on the field, I've got to say I agree with you. I can't see why being elevated and connected with the line would be a big problem. I'm sure I could be convinced, but haven't been so far.

 

[mobile_96]

I think you've hit it on the head, Judi. While Sickles' move forward might have been better for Sickles' corps, it was not better for the Army of the Potomac. As alluded earlier, Sickles flanks were way to exposed. One doesn't need to be Clausewitz to realize that a salient can't be a good thing.
IIRC, the only reason that Meade didn't cour-martial him was because the goggle-eyed snapping turtle felt sorry for Sickles. Meade would almost certainly have saved himself a great deal of later trouble if he had court-martialled Sickles.

Correct on the lack of legal action against Sickles.
I don't think the advanced position was better for Sickles. He said, later, that one reason he moved forward was because he couldn't cover the ground he was directed to hold, with the forces he had. So Then, he moves to a position much longer in length with the same number of men. Now, instead of being able to hit Longstreet in the flank, he gets blasted with the full force of Confederate forces because Longstreet changes the direction of his attack (because Sickles has moved).

 

[Old Hickory]

I think you've hit it on the head, Judi. While Sickles' move forward might have been better for Sickles' corps, it was not better for the Army of the Potomac. As alluded earlier, Sickles flanks were way to exposed. One doesn't need to be Clausewitz to realize that a salient can't be a good thing.

IIRC, the only reason that Meade didn't cour-martial him was because the goggle-eyed snapping turtle felt sorry for Sickles. Meade would almost certainly have saved himself a great deal of later trouble if he had court-martialled Sickles.

It wasn't just Sickles that gave Mead a pain in the side, Dan Butterfield had a lot to do with it also.

Sickles, Sickles, he's our man...if he can't do it.....he'll tell you he did Sorry... This is a really interesting discussion, and I second that sentiment about learning a lot.

You're actually right on the money with Sickles. Being wounded and having his leg amputated late on July 2, Sickles had himseld taken to Washington to recover and of course told of the events as he saw them, (remember, Sickles was a lawyer and Tammany Hall politition, having only a little pre-war militia training to climb the N.Y.social ladder).

Were Meads orders vauge and unclear as to where Sickles was to position his corps?..No, Mead told Sickles to tie into Hancocks left and extend his corps to Little Round Top, releiving Geary's division of the XII corps who occupied the position to Hancocks left. Seems perfectly clear to me. I think if Mead made a mistake on the morning of July 2, it was sending his son, (young Capt. Mead of his staff) to check on Sickles when a more experianced officer was needed. Capt. Mead reported Sickles was in his tent asleep when he arrived at III corps HQ and had to be roused and told Capt. Mead he was confused about where the 3rd corps should be, claiming Geary's division really didn't have a line and they were simply bunched together. When young Capt. Mead reported back to Army HQ. "Daddy" was none too pleased and sent the young Capt. back to Sickles to get him moving, (it was a 1/2 mi. ride between HQs). Capt. Mead found tents struck and a "bee hive" of activity upon his return to III corps HQ, Sickles mounted and surrounded by his staff and told Capt. Mead his corps would be posted as soon as possible. Soon Sickles took off to post Birney's division.

Poor artillery positions? Corps and division commanders were notoriously poor judges when it came to artillery placement, and a constant thorn in the side to artillery commanders who knew their jobs.

Higher ground to the front? Yes, there was...And higher ground beyond that, all the way to South Mountain.

Why position the III corps in an arc all the way to the Emmitsburg rd. leaving it's flank exposed and leaving the srtong Cemetary Ridge position? I beleive it was because Sickles wanted to secure the Emmitsburg rd. for his ammunition train and two brigades he left to gaurd it in Maryland to use. Though agressive, Sickles was not the same caliber of Reynolds, let alone Hancock. He greatly increased the odds for Confederate sucess on the second day when he advanced his corps from it's important and secure position on Cemetary Ridge, isolating his corps and putting the entire army at risk and Mead took all nessary steps to make the best of the situation.

 

[Nathanb1]

I'd forgotten about Mead's son....thanks for reminding me! There's another argument against nepotism....

 

[101combatvet]

Apparently, he also consider the Meade position to be inadequate for his artillery... shooting up in elevation on moist or on "swamped" ground.

Correct on the lack of legal action against Sickles.
I don't think the advanced position was better for Sickles. He said, later, that one reason he moved forward was because he couldn't cover the ground he was directed to hold, with the forces he had. So Then, he moves to a position much longer in length with the same number of men. Now, instead of being able to hit Longstreet in the flank, he gets blasted with the full force of Confederate forces because Longstreet changes the direction of his attack (because Sickles has moved).

 

[wilber6150]

Apparently, he also consider the Meade position to be inadequate for his artillery... shooting up in elevation on moist or on "swamped" ground.

Right, his original position before the orders from Meade was bad taticaly and that ridge line he was concerned about did look down on him.. But he had the whole ridge line and the round tops behind him that he could have placed his troops on that would taken care of that.. Im of the opinion that he just thought he knew more and was a better general then Meade and was going to do what he wanted..

 

[K Hale]

As I recall, Porter Alexander thought Sickles moving into the Peach Orchard might have actually been an OK idea, from where he sat... I will have to consult the memoirs later.

Here's what he said:

And here I must explain that the enemy's position this afternoon was not exactly in the fishhook line which I have described. At the "bend" of the hook, where the ridge was less well defined & partly flattened out, a lower & still less defined ridge angled off in front of the main ridge which makes the shank of the fishhook & climbs up into the Round Top mountains. Gen. Sickles' corps, by a misconception of orders, had taken position along this ridge, instead of on the main shank. Along this ridge ran the Emmitsburg Pike. Sickles formed along this pike until he reached a cross road, where there was a large peach orchard, & there he turned off to the left & rested his flank in some broken ground in front of the foot of Little Round Top. And neither Little or Big Round Top was occupied, except perhaps with pickets & the signal station. Meade did not like Sickles's position, & was just about to bring him back to the "shank" line (as I may call it) when our attack began. While on the subject I may say that in my judgment it was no harm to Meade to have our charge expend its first fury upon an advanced line in front; where the shank line in rear gave such fine opportunity for artillery to cover the retreat of troops from the front. And Sickles claims that his advanced position is what gave Meade the victory, and in my opinion he has reasonable ground for thinking so.

 

[Nathanb1]

Wonder what might have happened to Gen. Sickles if his side hadn't ultimately won at Gettysburg? Especially if he hadn't lost that leg.....I know it's a what-if, but everybody has to have a scapegoat.

 

[wilber6150]

Here's what he said:

My only thought on the statement would be this ..how strong a position would Sickles have had if he had his infantry and artillary on the high ground, with reinforcements from other Corps within a short distance to aid him... He could still have chewed up the attacking forces and have had a Corps left at the end of the day...

 

[matthew mckeon]

This is from memory. Wasn't Sickles in a situation where he was pounded by artillery from a rise of ground ahead of his line before? Maybe he was thinking; "aha, I won't let that happen again!"

 

[K Hale]

This is from memory. Wasn't Sickles in a situation where he was pounded by artillery from a rise of ground ahead of his line before? Maybe he was thinking; "aha, I won't let that happen again!"

Yes he was. The ranger who did the Peach Orchard battle walk that I attended said that. I can't recall where it happened, though, but you are correct.

 

[Rob9641]

Yes he was. The ranger who did the Peach Orchard battle walk that I attended said that. I can't recall where it happened, though, but you are correct.

I think it was Chancellorsville.

 

[101combatvet]

Yes... Hazel Grove.

I think it was Chancellorsville.