Dan Sickles - Anything good?

[Library Lady]

One of the things about the Sickles' trial that surprised me was that people generally seemed to be more upset by the fact that he didn't immediately divorce his wife than the fact that he had killed Key. Sickles let it be known that he was reconciling with his wife - and she apparently really wanted to do that - but he never really did.

 

[Scott1967]

As you indicate, Barlow's tactics have never been immune from criticism. But they never became the subject of a major controversy because Barlow didn't launch a post-battle public relations campaign littered with falsehoods to explain how he really "saved" the Army of the Potomac on July 1. Sickles would have embarked on an essay-writing venture pointing out that the attackers became disorganized by chasing the routed IX Corps into the town, leading to a material delay while reinforcements arrived at Cemetery Hill and caused Ewell to refrain from an attack.

I really don't understand the compulsion to defend the likes of Sickles.

Sickles was loved by his men Barlow was despised and took the stance his men were at fault not him Ill take a Dan Sickles over a Barlow any day of the week imho.

 

[JerryD]

Sickles was loved by his men Barlow was despised and took the stance his men were at fault not him Ill take a Dan Sickles over a Barlow any day of the week imho.

You can have him!

 

[Scott1967]

You can have him!

Id go out on the town with Dan I just would not make eye contact with his wife...

 

[Library Lady]

Id go out on the town with Dan I just would not make eye contact with his wife...

If you're out on the town with Dan, then his wife isn't going to be there. That was the source of his problem, and he brought it on himself. If he'd stayed a little closer to home more often instead of leaving his wife under the protection of a not unattractive man while he (Sickles) was out galivanting around, the whole sad incident could have been avoided. Just a woman's opinion, of course.

 

[Belfoured]

Sickles was loved by his men Barlow was despised and took the stance his men were at fault not him Ill take a Dan Sickles over a Barlow any day of the week imho.

Barlow spent the post-war performing public service, such as prosecuting the egregiously corrupt Boss Tweed Ring when he was New York AG (more about that below). He founded the American Bar Association. And he was chosen to Chair Concord's Centennial Commission in 1876. There is no evidence that any of its funds went "missing" under his stewardship.

Sickles was a corrupt Tammany Hall politician. Tammany Hall became the "enterprise" of the infamous Boss Tweed. Of course he was "loved" by his men. That's an essential skill set for politicians, especially the corrupt ones. He did manage to find time for escorting prostitutres across the Pond while married, etc.

 

[Belfoured]

Id go out on the town with Dan I just would not make eye contact with his wife...

A wise approach, indeed. He might be trying to make eye contact with yours, however ...

 

[Tom Elmore]

It was not wise to make eye contact with Barlow's wife either:

(Journal of Private William H. Warren, Company C, 17th Connecticut) June 16 [1863], [upon reaching Goose Creek after a long march in the intense heat] I was among those detailed for guard, and I was stationed at division headquarters. The beat was long and full of stone, and as my feet were very sore I did not walk it, but stood still. Shortly Mrs. Barlow, wife of the division general, told an orderly to tell me to walk my beat and stop looking at her, or I would be arrested. I walked.

 

[Scott1967]

Sickles was a corrupt Tammany Hall politician. Tammany Hall became the "enterprise" of the infamous Boss Tweed. Of course he was "loved" by his men. That's an essential skill set for politicians, especially the corrupt ones. He did manage to find time for escorting prostitutres across the Pond while married, etc.

You cant deny you would much rather serve under Dan than Barlow , The lower ranks have a habit of following flamboyant charismatic scoundrels than the straight laced incorruptible bores its been proven through history.

When I first joined the army I did my training at Pirbright our platoon officer was a certain R.F.A Allhusen , His family had a long tradition of serving in the Army in short he was a toff not like us plebs but because he was a toff and didn't hide the fact we absolutely adored him he left everything to the Colour and the Lance Sergeants while he went off galivanting , He had a habit of calling us peasants & northern monkeys and it sort of adhered him to us.

 

[Belfoured]

You cant deny you would much rather serve under Dan than Barlow , The lower ranks have a habit of following flamboyant charismatic scoundrels than the straight laced incorruptible bores its been proven through history.

When I first joined the army I did my training at Pirbright our platoon officer was a certain R.F.A Allhusen , His family had a long tradition of serving in the Army in short he was a toff not like us plebs but because he was a toff and didn't hide the fact we absolutely adored him he left everything to the Colour and the Lance Sergeants while he went off galivanting , He had a habit of calling us peasants & northern monkeys and it sort of adhered him to us.

I'll speak for myself: I'm not into "following flamboyant charismatic scoundrels" if they're reckless fools trying to get me needlessly killed.

 

[Scott1967]

I'll speak for myself: I'm not into "following flamboyant charismatic scoundrels" if they're reckless fools trying to get me needlessly killed.

Grant and Meade would have got you killed just as easy to be fair.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

If he'd stayed a little closer to home more often instead of leaving his wife under the protection of a not unattractive man while he (Sickles) was out galivanting around, the whole sad incident could have been avoided. Just a woman's opinion, of course.

I get the impression Mrs. Sickles may have been engaging in the affair primarily to make Mr. Sickles jealous.

I'll speak for myself: I'm not into "following flamboyant charismatic scoundrels" if they're reckless fools trying to get me needlessly killed.

Excessive self-confidence with the right kind of charisma sways a disturbing number of people, regardless of recklessness. It's great for attracting women with low self-esteem (secret to the success of the classic "bad boy"), cult followers, and ponzi scheme investors.

 

[Belfoured]

Grant and Meade would have got you killed just as easy to be fair.

You like the idea of following some self-infatuated, dishonest, corrupt knave who didn't know what he was doing. I don't. Wrong at Chancellorsville and wrong again at Gettysburg. The glass half-full is that he ran out of chances to be wrong.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[121st PA Vols]

Back in the 70s we'd sit in the guide room of the Visitors Center (Electric Map or newer Visitors [Cyclorama] Center) arguing Sickles move in a manner that sometimes got heated. This included a Park Historian who wondered too close one slow Monday morning. We were initially divided by the 5 of us recently discharged vets who opposed Sickles move vs non vets who were divided, tho the majority were against his move. A few points we vets argued were....

* the ground from LRT stretching north just past Father Corby monument - G. Weikert Farm was defensible and nearer supporting troops (Caldwell Div, 5th corps elements to rear of Cem Ridge).
* Blocking positions (3rd corps/sharpshoot elements, eg Bushman Farm) could be established at various farmsteads, Houck Ridge, D Den Rose bldgs and Woods, etc. No Hougoumont but sufficient to delay.
* The ground from there to the Pa Monument (Caldwell's Div) was a good platform for artillery as McGilvery would demonstrate later in the day and on July 3rd.
* The vets also felt strongly Pleasonton's not replacing Buford (to Westminster) was a mistake never given enough weight but not meant to detract from Sickle's insubordinate move.
----- As an aside. I took an old New Yorker over the field who wanted to find Sickles grave so he could spit on it, having lost a great grandfather at Gettysburg. No tip on that tour when I told him he was at Arlington not Gettysburg. Still a good story and tour! He was a neat old dude.

 

[Scott1967]

A lot of generals made dumb moves in the civil war even those educated at West Point and with hindsight it tends to amplify them ten fold , Sickles movement on the second day is no worse than Lee , Grant , Burnside , Hooker , Hood etc etc.

I think the fact that Sickles bragged that his movement won the Battle of Gettysburg and stopped Meade retreating really rubs people up the wrong way and I get that , And yes from a military viewpoint the ground he chose was absolutely not textbook defensible leaving his flank in the air and a gap in the line however had Sickles gone back into line we just don't know how it would have played out Longstreet might have executed his flanking move and rolled up the Union line we can speculate but we just don't know.

Gettysburg is one of those battles that has so many what ifs more than any other battle I know and that's what's so fascinating about it and why its the most studied battle in the Civil War even though the outcome really didn't effect the war that much.

 

[Belfoured]

A lot of generals made dumb moves in the civil war even those educated at West Point and with hindsight it tends to amplify them ten fold , Sickles movement on the second day is no worse than Lee , Grant , Burnside , Hooker , Hood etc etc.

I think the fact that Sickles bragged that his movement won the Battle of Gettysburg and stopped Meade retreating really rubs people up the wrong way and I get that , And yes from a military viewpoint the ground he chose was absolutely not textbook defensible leaving his flank in the air and a gap in the line however had Sickles gone back into line we just don't know how it would have played out Longstreet might have executed his flanking move and rolled up the Union line we can speculate but we just don't know.

Gettysburg is one of those battles that has so many what ifs more than any other battle I know and that's what's so fascinating about it and why its the most studied battle in the Civil War even though the outcome really didn't effect the war that much.

We're starting to go in circles. The move was colossally foolish because he did it unilaterally and lacked the judgment to see why. I clearly dislike Sickles. I also know to separate that from evaluating the maneuver.

 

[neyankee61]

Not everyone loved Sickles. The boys of the 2nd New Jersey Brigade didn't. They blamed him for the death, possible suicide, of their popular Brigade commander, Gen. Francis Patterson. During a review following Patterson's death, Sickles and newly appointed Brigade Commander Gen Joseph Revere rode pass the Brigade. They were greeted with jeers and groans.

 

[Belfoured]

Not everyone loved Sickles. The boys of the 2nd New Jersey Brigade didn't. They blamed him for the death, possible suicide, of their popular Brigade commander, Gen. Francis Patterson. During a review following Patterson's death, Sickles and newly appointed Brigade Commander Gen Joseph Revere rode pass the Brigade. They were greeted with jeers and groans.

And that simply proves the flaw in making blanket statements that the 10,000 men of the III Corps - and, certainly, the much smaller number who were left after the July 2 fiasco - "loved" Sickles.